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Composer Tagging: The Best Method?, Moved from CD Hardware/Software
Antigen
post Mar 14 2012, 20:28
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Hi,

my question is very simple.

Some CD Songs have two or three COMPOSER, when I use my CD Ripper I can include the information of the COMPOSER TAG into the FLAC file.

What do you suggest for SEPARATOR?

----> / (for example Carmichel / Washington)

or

----> , (for example Carmichel, Washington)


What is the better solution, for compatibility and other possible issue? What is the better solution for the MP3 Player tagging management system? (or is indifferent)

Thanks very much


P.S: I have see that FREEDB use , and MusicBrainz use the /
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lvqcl
post Mar 14 2012, 20:38
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IIRC flac uses vorbis comment system.

QUOTE (http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/doc/v-comment.html)
Field names are not required to be unique (occur once) within a comment header. As an example, assume a track was recorded by three well know artists; the following is permissible, and encouraged:
ARTIST=Dizzy Gillespie
ARTIST=Sonny Rollins
ARTIST=Sonny Stitt

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Antigen
post Mar 14 2012, 20:43
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QUOTE (lvqcl @ Mar 14 2012, 20:38) *
IIRC flac uses vorbis comment system.

QUOTE (http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/doc/v-comment.html)
Field names are not required to be unique (occur once) within a comment header. As an example, assume a track was recorded by three well know artists; the following is permissible, and encouraged:
ARTIST=Dizzy Gillespie
ARTIST=Sonny Rollins
ARTIST=Sonny Stitt





But in the COMPOSER FIELD I need to use:

Hoagy Carmichael, Ned Washington

or

Hoagy Carmichael/Ned Washington

for correct use?
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tpijag
post Mar 14 2012, 20:50
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QUOTE
Field names are not required to be unique

Artist field was just an example and Field Names is clearly showing it is not limited to artist.

Composer=1
Composer=2
etc.

This post has been edited by tpijag: Mar 14 2012, 20:53
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Antigen
post Mar 14 2012, 20:54
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Sorry but I don't understand

I have see that when with XLD I download from the FreeDB the data of my CD it complete the Composer Data.

Inside I have see a field: (there are name of track, album, year of release ecc...)

COMPOSER: Jackson, Robert

But is better to use the (,) or the (/)?

This is the problem...
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db1989
post Mar 14 2012, 21:07
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QUOTE (Antigen @ Mar 14 2012, 19:54) *
COMPOSER: Jackson, Robert

But is better to use the (,) or the (/)?

This is the problem...

This is nothing to do with it. That comma separates the surname and forename of one composer, not the separate names of multiple composers.

The way to separate values in the latter case depends largely upon the format and your chosen players (software or hardware). Some formats have no formal provision. Moreover, an application may display a multi-value separator in one way but actually write it to the file in another; for example, foobar2000 uses a semicolon in all displayed and edited multi-value fields but actually writes whatever the format specifies (if anything).

The examples above about FLAC suggest that you use multiple composer fields, each with one value. Again, this is not essential and will depend upon what you actually want to do, any personal preferences you may have, and how these two things meet in the middle.

Someone with more practical knowledge than me can probably help out more, but this is what I have.
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eahm
post Mar 14 2012, 21:07
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This is weird, I've just tested the file with MP3tag, Windows 7 and dBpoweramp.

When you insert TWO different composers on Windows, dBpoweramp shows ";", Windows (File - Properties - Details) shows ";" but MP3tag (the real tag on the file) shows \\. So, I guess the way to show more composers on the same line as if they are more than one is "\\" (ex: Mozart\\Beethoven).

I don't like this "\\". Let us know what you find after you test.

*Classical I've bought from Amazon has only "," between multiple composers.

This post has been edited by eahm: Mar 14 2012, 21:12
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db1989
post Mar 14 2012, 21:13
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Actually, AFAIK, that's just what Mp3tag uses. What format are you talking about, anyway? If MP3, IIRC v2.3 fields literally separate multiple values using a forward slash, whereas v2.4 uses a NUL (ASCII/Unicode character #0).
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eahm
post Mar 14 2012, 21:22
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The "\\" was tested just with a FLAC file. In fact, you're right, AAC and MP3 show two different composers if the tag is one "/".

*If the MP3 or AAC file is reencoded to FLAC the "/" converts in "\\".
*If the FLAC file is encoded to MP3 or AAC the "\\" converts to "/".

So:
MP3, AAC (I haven't tested other formats yet) = "/"
FLAC = "\\"

This post has been edited by eahm: Mar 14 2012, 21:35
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Antigen
post Mar 14 2012, 21:24
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I have see this that iTunes (/) for separation of composer



P.S: the format that I will use is FLAC

This post has been edited by Antigen: Mar 14 2012, 21:24
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spoon
post Mar 14 2012, 22:32
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Although dBpoweramp shows ';' it is a way of showing multiple items, when writing the actual tag (artist, or composer) it would be written correctly for the audio tag type.


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eahm
post Mar 15 2012, 01:00
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dBpoweramp shows ";" but it's a "/" or a "\\". Please read previous posts.

This post has been edited by eahm: Mar 15 2012, 01:12
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tpijag
post Mar 15 2012, 01:12
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Are you really correcting spoon as to how it dbpowerAMP works? biggrin.gif
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eahm
post Mar 15 2012, 01:40
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I am just saying that the way Windows Details and MP3tag show DIFFERENT composers in order in the Composer tag option (separate and not in the same line) is only if you separate them with a "/" for MP3, AAC (and maybe others?) and a "\\" for FLAC files.

I will test with dBpoweramp right now.


*Ok, if you separate the many names with a ; on dBpoweramp it shows "/" and "\\" on MP3tag and separate names on Windows Details separated by the same ";" but not renameable, for example to rename a composer you have to delete the full name and retype the new one.

Now, if you separate them with a ";" on Windows Details they willl be practically on the same line and they show ";" on MP3tag as well and not "/" and "\\", always showing ";" on dBpoweramp like they are the same type of tag.

Please let me know if I explained myself well enough. I can prepare screenshots or maybe a video.


*Maybe I am paying too much attention of how Windows 7 shows the tags but when they are typed well on Details they show correctly on MP3tag (so I guess it's the real tag) but they don't necessary show correctly when typed in the same way with other software.

This post has been edited by eahm: Mar 15 2012, 01:57
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smz
post Mar 15 2012, 04:46
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eahm, you must understand that the separator used within the tags frames themselves and the one you use/see within the application you use to tag (or view the tags) may be (and often are) different.

As you talk about viewing your tags content with Windows 7 properties, I assume you are talking about ID3v2.3 tags. For that kind of tags the separator used INTERNALLY is the slash "/", but again that doesn't mean you have to use the slash while using a particular tagging application.

If that confuses you think that in ID3v2.4 the separator used for multi-value fields is the NULL character: hard to use (and see!) while tagging...

It seems that the semicolon ";" is often used by several application to indicate multi-valued fields.

Also keep in mind that quite few ID3 frames can accept multiple values. Happly enough the TCOM frame (used to store composer information) is one of those.

You can read more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ID3

This post has been edited by smz: Mar 15 2012, 04:49


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eahm
post Mar 15 2012, 05:08
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Thank you for explaining further, I am just always obsessed with everything being perfect but sometimes nothing is related with actual perfection.

This post has been edited by eahm: Mar 15 2012, 05:09
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db1989
post Mar 15 2012, 20:52
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slz, thanks for concentrating into one post what I had thought I already explained above in two. wink.gif

This post has been edited by db1989: Mar 15 2012, 20:52
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smz
post Mar 15 2012, 22:02
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You're welcome, db1989, and thank-you! smile.gif ... but ... it is smz, not slz! smile.gif


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db1989
post Mar 15 2012, 22:03
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Oops biggrin.gif
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southisup
post Mar 16 2012, 21:46
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I've always been confused by multi-value tagging & have ended up avoiding it as a result - I just always use commas now, because no software (that I've come across) recognises those as seperators.

The problem is multiple.
  1. Different formats allow different fields to be or not to be multi-value.
  2. Different software allow different formats to have different multi-value fields.
  3. Different tagging software recognise different characters as indicators that you intend multi-values.
  4. Different players display multi-value fields in different ways - seperate rows, single forward slash, double back slash, semi-colon...
  5. Different library managers handle multi-value fields differently - combined listing, seperate listings, both...


It's the sort of problem sometimes 'solved' with one of those huge wikipedia comparison tables, which possibly have all the information in, but hardly anyone can even fit on their screen, let alone actually get their heads around.

Or have I been psychologically damaged by an early experience, & someone will come along now & make it all seem simple?

Don't get me wrong, this discussion has helped. A lot. Thanks! But I still don't think I'm about to start using them. I guess one thing that would greatly help me would be a way to quickly see (in foobar2000, for me) which tracks have multi-value fields, & which tags they are. Then I could experiment & get to grips with it in my own time.

And am I mixing fields & tags up?

This post has been edited by southisup: Mar 16 2012, 21:49
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db1989
post Mar 16 2012, 22:40
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QUOTE (southisup @ Mar 16 2012, 20:46) *
I guess one thing that would greatly help me would be a way to quickly see (in foobar2000, for me) which tracks have multi-value fields, & which tags they are.
Use $meta_num(field).
For example:
CODE
$ifgreater($meta_num(field),0,$ifgreater($meta_num(field),1,%field% has multiple values,%field% has a single value),%field% is absent)

QUOTE (southisup @ Mar 16 2012, 20:46) *
And am I mixing fields & tags up?
A tag is the entire block of metadata. A field is one piece of information therein.
However, many people and sources (some of whom should know better!) do get the two mixed up, often using the word tag to refer to a single field.

This post has been edited by db1989: Mar 17 2012, 00:32
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southisup
post Mar 20 2012, 11:46
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 17 2012, 08:40) *
For example:
CODE
$ifgreater($meta_num(field),0,$ifgreater($meta_num(field),1,%field% has multiple values,%field% has a single value),%field% is absent)
Thanks. I haven't figured out how to use this, but it did prompt me to look through my notes & find I cracked this once before, when fixing some comments doubled up by another bit of software I tried. This works for me as a library filter:
CODE
"$meta_num(artist)" GREATER 1
Where would I use your example?

QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 17 2012, 08:40) *
A tag is the entire block of metadata. A field is one piece of information therein.
Thanks!
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