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Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?
KMD
post Mar 13 2012, 12:49
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What sample rate and bit depth , dithered, would create a digital recording with the same bandwidth and signal to noise ratio as vinyl
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Mar 21 2012, 11:43
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QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 13 2012, 07:49) *
What sample rate and bit depth , dithered, would create a digital recording with the same bandwidth and signal to noise ratio as vinyl



Maybe 11 or 12 bits, and maybe 35 or 40 KHz.

This is a little hard to say exactly because the digital performance limits implied are hard walls, while the limits of analog are sort of like padded walls. However, the analog room is very much smaller and can never be enlarged. The digital room can be made as large as you want to pay for.

For example, while a LP can be made with 35 KHz bandwidth, it can't carry much data at that frequency and the data is highly corrupted not to mention difficult to play usefully and easy to destroy during playback. The LP format starts loosing dynamic range and adding audible distortion beginning around 5 KHz. Vinyl has severe power bandwidth problems at both ends of the audible spectrum.

Vinyl also has massive inherent jitter, and is typically made from analog tape recordings that have relatively massive jitter. The best analog tape recorder ever sold as a commercial product has about 1,000 nanoseconds or a million picoseconds of jitter on the best day of its life, and needs frequent (weekly, daily) maintenance to perform that way. Every recording that any regular consumer ever listened on vinyl was much worse.

A comparable digital recording is scrupulously clean very close to Nyquist, has full bandwidth at high levels, is very easy to recover fully, does everything right down to DC, has inherent jitter that can be reduced arbitrarily, and is very durable.
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Porcus
post Mar 22 2012, 15:49
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 21 2012, 11:43) *
jitter


Is that synonymous to what we used to call wow & flutter, or is there more to it?


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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Mar 22 2012, 20:44
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 22 2012, 10:49) *
QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 21 2012, 11:43) *
jitter


Is that synonymous to what we used to call wow & flutter, or is there more to it?


Wow, flutter, and jitter are all examples of FM distortion.
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Glenn Gundlach
post Mar 23 2012, 04:29
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 22 2012, 11:44) *
QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 22 2012, 10:49) *
QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 21 2012, 11:43) *
jitter


Is that synonymous to what we used to call wow & flutter, or is there more to it?


Wow, flutter, and jitter are all examples of FM distortion.


Jitter is comparatively easy to process out. Wow and flutter more difficult since there is no timing reference in the signal.

G
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DonP
post Mar 24 2012, 13:26
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QUOTE (Glenn Gundlach @ Mar 22 2012, 23:29) *
Jitter is comparatively easy to process out. Wow and flutter more difficult since there is no timing reference in the signal.


If the jitter happened in A/D, what is your timing reference?

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Posts in this topic
- KMD   Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?   Mar 13 2012, 12:49
- - dhromed   Somewhat below Redbook.   Mar 13 2012, 12:57
- - Kees de Visser   This old thread gives some answers: http://www.hyd...   Mar 13 2012, 13:32
- - KMD   Ok so I'm getting 44Khz 12 Bit from there. Pe...   Mar 13 2012, 13:50
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 13 2012, 12:50) Ok so I...   Mar 13 2012, 14:40
- - pdq   There was a listening test here a few years back. ...   Mar 13 2012, 14:14
- - KMD   The question is do very low signal to noise rati...   Mar 13 2012, 14:49
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 13 2012, 13:49) The ques...   Mar 13 2012, 15:15
- - KMD   If people think vinyl LP sounds better than 12 Bit...   Mar 13 2012, 15:26
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 13 2012, 14:26) If peopl...   Mar 13 2012, 15:39
- - John_Siau   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 13 2012, 06:49) What sam...   Mar 13 2012, 15:41
- - KMD   listening tests at super high quality are hard to ...   Mar 13 2012, 16:01
|- - Rotareneg   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 13 2012, 09:01) If it ex...   Mar 13 2012, 17:34
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 13 2012, 10:01) listenin...   Mar 13 2012, 19:50
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 13 2012, 11:01) listenin...   Mar 21 2012, 11:29
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 13 2012, 07:49) What sam...   Mar 21 2012, 11:43
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 21 2012, 11...   Mar 22 2012, 15:49
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 22 2012, 10:49) QUOTE...   Mar 22 2012, 16:01
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 22 2012, 10:49) QUOTE...   Mar 22 2012, 20:44
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 22 2012, 11...   Mar 23 2012, 04:29
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Glenn Gundlach @ Mar 22 2012, 20:2...   Mar 23 2012, 11:48
|- - DonP   QUOTE (Glenn Gundlach @ Mar 22 2012, 23:2...   Mar 24 2012, 13:26
- - icstm   ^^^ so isn't quite funny that all those ppl wh...   Mar 22 2012, 12:45
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 22 2012, 12:45) ^^^ so...   Mar 22 2012, 15:54
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 22 2012, 07:45) all th...   Mar 24 2012, 20:05
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Mar 24 2012, 12:05) ...   Mar 26 2012, 10:03
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 22 2012, 13:45) ^^^ so...   Mar 26 2012, 10:18
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 26 2012, 05:18) QUO...   Apr 15 2012, 12:42
- - greynol   While CDDA only goes to 22k, I don't believe i...   Mar 22 2012, 14:02
- - pdq   If such jitter were a problem (which it is not) th...   Mar 24 2012, 14:05
|- - DonP   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 24 2012, 09:05) If such ...   Mar 25 2012, 12:41
- - icstm   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Mar 26 2012, 09:03) ...   Apr 16 2012, 09:49
- - cdroid   So I didn't read each and every one of these p...   Sep 2 2014, 07:36
|- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 2 2014, 08:36) 1. The...   Sep 2 2014, 08:59
|- - mjb2006   cdroid, welcome to the forum. You will find that w...   Sep 2 2014, 09:15
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (mjb2006 @ Sep 2 2014, 09:15) QUOTE...   Sep 2 2014, 10:23
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 2 2014, 02:36) So I d...   Sep 2 2014, 16:10
|- - mjb2006   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Sep 2 2014, 09...   Sep 3 2014, 05:07
- - lithopsian   QUOTE Misapprehension number 3: There are no gaps ...   Sep 3 2014, 11:51
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (lithopsian @ Sep 3 2014, 06:51) QU...   Sep 3 2014, 19:15
- - lithopsian   I wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse. Sa...   Sep 3 2014, 19:45
|- - pdq   QUOTE (lithopsian @ Sep 3 2014, 14:45) I ...   Sep 3 2014, 20:18
|- - audiophool   QUOTE (pdq @ Sep 3 2014, 21:18) I don...   Sep 3 2014, 21:41
||- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (audiophool @ Sep 3 2014, 22:41) I ...   Sep 4 2014, 00:02
||- - Green Marker   QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Sep 4 2014, 00:02) QUOT...   Sep 4 2014, 05:45
||- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 4 2014, 06:45) ...   Sep 4 2014, 09:18
|- - Green Marker   I think the average audiophile reading this would ...   Sep 3 2014, 21:52
- - mjb2006   You hit the nail on the head. In the typical audio...   Sep 4 2014, 06:12
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (mjb2006 @ Sep 4 2014, 06:12) What ...   Sep 4 2014, 10:12
|- - mjb2006   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 4 2014, 03:12) QUO...   Sep 4 2014, 15:37
- - 2Bdecided   Here is the process: 1. pick a sampling frequency...   Sep 4 2014, 10:05
- - Vietwoojagig   Maybe this is the right discussion to ask a questi...   Sep 4 2014, 12:35
- - 2Bdecided   It's convolved with (filtered by) a sinc pulse...   Sep 4 2014, 13:12
|- - Green Marker   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 4 2014, 13:12) How...   Sep 4 2014, 19:53
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 4 2014, 14:53) ...   Sep 4 2014, 20:50
||- - Green Marker   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Sep 4 2014, 20...   Sep 4 2014, 20:56
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 4 2014, 15:56) ...   Sep 4 2014, 22:34
||- - Green Marker   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Sep 4 2014, 22...   Sep 4 2014, 23:04
||- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 5 2014, 00:04) ...   Sep 4 2014, 23:28
|||- - Green Marker   QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Sep 4 2014, 23:28) QUOT...   Sep 5 2014, 00:04
|||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 4 2014, 19:04) ...   Sep 5 2014, 00:16
||||- - Green Marker   QUOTE (saratoga @ Sep 5 2014, 00:16) No a...   Sep 5 2014, 00:36
||||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 4 2014, 19:36) ...   Sep 5 2014, 00:53
|||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 5 2014, 00:04) ...   Sep 5 2014, 11:02
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 4 2014, 18:04) ...   Sep 5 2014, 01:29
||- - Green Marker   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Sep 5 2014, 01...   Sep 5 2014, 08:42
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 5 2014, 03:42) ...   Sep 5 2014, 12:54
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Green Marker @ Sep 4 2014, 14:53) ...   Sep 4 2014, 23:11
- - Thad E Ginathom   Speaking as a self-selected sample of one... Mont...   Sep 4 2014, 18:11
- - xnor   A sinc filter is an ideal low pass filter. DC to f...   Sep 5 2014, 12:57
- - cdroid   I've read some of your responses and I'm s...   Sep 6 2014, 02:44
|- - splice   Sigh... this place needs a :facepalm: icon. QUOT...   Sep 6 2014, 04:17
|- - sld   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 6 2014, 09:44) First ...   Sep 6 2014, 04:56
||- - KozmoNaut   QUOTE (sld @ Sep 6 2014, 04:56) Please pe...   Sep 6 2014, 10:26
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (KozmoNaut @ Sep 6 2014, 05:26) QUO...   Sep 6 2014, 12:34
|- - probedb   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 6 2014, 02:44) The fi...   Sep 6 2014, 09:14
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 5 2014, 21:44) I...   Sep 6 2014, 12:38
|- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 6 2014, 03:44) I...   Sep 6 2014, 16:15
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 5 2014, 21:44) No, I ...   Sep 6 2014, 20:37
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 5 2014, 21:44) I saw ...   Sep 7 2014, 00:01
- - cdroid   I forgot to reply to the post that irritated me th...   Sep 6 2014, 02:59
|- - splice   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 5 2014, 17:59) ... wh...   Sep 6 2014, 04:22
|- - Green Marker   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 6 2014, 02:59) In the...   Sep 6 2014, 09:20
- - mjb2006   I'm impressed. Not many people can read Princi...   Sep 6 2014, 11:07
- - Thad E Ginathom   QUOTE (cdroid @ Sep 6 2014, 07:14) I...   Sep 6 2014, 19:12
- - Wombat   Time to fire up my old gear and listen a Burr Brow...   Sep 6 2014, 19:48
|- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Wombat @ Sep 6 2014, 20:48) The un...   Sep 6 2014, 20:26
- - xnor   I have studied UFOlogy, and as such I can tell you...   Sep 6 2014, 22:04
- - xnor   The Sony CDP-101, released in 1982, had only one ...   Sep 7 2014, 01:06
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Sep 6 2014, 20:06) The Sony...   Sep 7 2014, 15:58
- - xnor   Oh yeah, the min phase brick wall, how could I for...   Sep 7 2014, 17:26
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (xnor @ Sep 7 2014, 12:26) Oh yeah,...   Sep 7 2014, 19:47
- - mjb2006   @Arnold QUOTE I don't know where you got the i...   Sep 7 2014, 17:41
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mjb2006 @ Sep 7 2014, 12:41) @Arno...   Sep 7 2014, 20:05
- - wswartzendruber   I skipped about half of the thread, but am I the o...   Sep 8 2014, 08:03
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (wswartzendruber @ Sep 8 2014, 08:0...   Sep 8 2014, 09:59
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 8 2014, 04:59) QUO...   Sep 8 2014, 10:57
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (wswartzendruber @ Sep 8 2014, 03:0...   Sep 8 2014, 10:51
- - Thad E Ginathom   If one is young (or even not so young, like me) an...   Sep 8 2014, 09:50
- - xnor   But analog has infinite resolution!!!...   Sep 8 2014, 12:03
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