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xiphmont’s ‘There is no point to distributing music in 24 bit/192 kHz’, Article: “24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed”
NullC
post Mar 6 2012, 03:14
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Of interest, but certainly not news to anyone here is Monty's educational piece regarding the lack of value of 24/192 as a distribution format:

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Some of the commentary on the internet has been not especially well informed, for example there are some crazy claims at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668310. If you're in a "someone is wrong on the internet!" correcting mood, you might want to go leave some comments in furtherance of the collective intelligence of mankind.

Cheers
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Patrunjica
post Oct 14 2012, 01:13
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True, but each time they repeat they are different then before, dividing up the sampling rate to that particular frequency results in a number with an infinite number of decimal places, approximating the location of one of the sampling points will influence the position of the next sample point and so on and so forth so that each time the wave repeats it shifts out of phase relative the sample points. And since the respective frequency is closer to the Nyquist any such deviation is more noticeable compared to a deviation that might occur using a higher sampling rate.

I know the waveform can be rebuild since obviously I can hear it, but I can't help but doubt that it's a more of an imperfect reconstruction then compared to pretty much anything lower then a 11025Hz sine.
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splice
post Oct 14 2012, 01:39
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QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 17:13) *
... I know the waveform can be rebuild since obviously I can hear it, but I can't help but doubt that it's a more of an imperfect reconstruction then compared to pretty much anything lower then a 11025Hz sine.


Play the waveform back through a digital to analog converter. Look at the resulting waveform with an oscilloscope. It's a smooth sine wave. Magic.

The magic trick is that the D to A converter doesn't just "join the dots". It passes its output through a reconstruction filter that only passes frequencies below half the sampling rate. Say you digitise a 20 KHz signal at a 44.1 KHz sampling rate. That 20 KHz signal can only ever be a sine wave. For it to be any other shape it would have to contain harmonics, and those harmonics would start at 40 KHz. The harmonics would be filtered out at the input to the A to D converter.

When you think about it, any digitised signal above 11.025 KHz must be a sine wave. It may itself be a harmonic of a lower frequency signal, but it won't in turn have any higher harmonics because they would be above 22.05 KHz.

So if you take your "jagged" join-the-dots line and join the dots with a sine wave curve, you'll find that there's exactly one curve that will join all the dots: one with the same frequency as the original frequency. Drawing that curve is exactly what the D to A reconstruction filter does.

This post has been edited by splice: Oct 14 2012, 01:45


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Don Hills
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Posts in this topic
- NullC   xiphmont’s ‘There is no point to distributing music in 24 bit/192 kHz’   Mar 6 2012, 03:14
- - NullC   It's also on slashdot now: http://news.slashdo...   Mar 6 2012, 05:36
- - Canar   RE: xiphmont’s ‘There is no point to distributing music in 24 bit/192 kHz’   Mar 6 2012, 05:52
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (Canar @ Mar 5 2012, 22:52)   Mar 6 2012, 06:08
|- - xiphmont   QUOTE (Canar @ Mar 5 2012, 23:52) Oooh,...   Mar 9 2012, 09:12
|- - Canar   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 00:12) Oooh...   Mar 9 2012, 16:36
- - DigitalMan   Very, very nicely done. Long live TOS #8.   Mar 6 2012, 06:27
- - Carledwards   Excellent. Glad to see this and I hope it gets wid...   Mar 6 2012, 08:50
- - Batman321   Great article! Meanwhile in a parallel u...   Mar 6 2012, 09:00
- - Porcus   At the risk of spinning off a digression: what is ...   Mar 6 2012, 09:32
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 6 2012, 03:32) At the...   Mar 6 2012, 14:41
- - skamp   ^^^ http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/03/odac-updat...   Mar 6 2012, 10:27
- - AndyH-ha   The answer depends on conditions, like the chem la...   Mar 6 2012, 10:39
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Mar 6 2012, 10:39)...   Mar 6 2012, 13:30
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 6 2012, 07:30) QUOTE ...   Mar 6 2012, 18:26
|- - DonP   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Mar 6 2012, 05:39)...   Mar 6 2012, 13:59
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (DonP @ Mar 6 2012, 07:59) QUOTE (A...   Mar 6 2012, 14:45
|- - Martel   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Mar 6 2012, 11:39)...   Mar 6 2012, 15:15
- - hlloyge   Finally. Thank you.   Mar 6 2012, 11:25
- - razer   Such a great read.   Mar 6 2012, 13:16
- - dumdidum   Monty: "The more that pseudoscience goes unch...   Mar 6 2012, 14:52
- - Wombat   QUOTE (NullC @ Mar 6 2012, 03:14) Some of...   Mar 6 2012, 17:02
- - Satellite_6   "It's hard to fake ambisonics or holograp...   Mar 6 2012, 20:56
- - jensend   By the by, I recently added a little writeup about...   Mar 6 2012, 22:53
|- - klonuo   QUOTE (jensend @ Mar 6 2012, 23:53) By th...   Mar 7 2012, 00:04
- - soulsearchingsun   From the article: QUOTE Audibility of a CD-Standar...   Mar 6 2012, 23:39
|- - pdq   QUOTE (soulsearchingsun @ Mar 6 2012, 17...   Mar 7 2012, 03:41
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 7 2012, 03:41) QUOTE (so...   Mar 7 2012, 09:04
|- - soulsearchingsun   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 7 2012, 03:41) QUOTE (so...   Mar 7 2012, 11:00
- - wakibaki   I'm happy to see a truly coherent argument aga...   Mar 7 2012, 00:57
|- - NullC   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Mar 6 2012, 16:57) This...   Mar 7 2012, 01:34
|- - BearcatSandor   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Mar 6 2012, 17:57) I...   Mar 7 2012, 07:50
- - wakibaki   I thought he made good points, but he quoted Meyer...   Mar 7 2012, 01:54
|- - xiphmont   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Mar 6 2012, 19:54) I th...   Mar 9 2012, 10:12
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 10:12) The ...   Mar 9 2012, 12:43
||- - icstm   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 9 2012, 11:43) If som...   Mar 9 2012, 16:16
||- - greynol   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 9 2012, 07:16) how doe...   Mar 9 2012, 16:45
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 9 2012, 16:45) QUOTE...   Mar 9 2012, 17:05
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 04:12) QUOT...   Mar 9 2012, 23:18
||- - xiphmont   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 9 2012, 17:18) Tha...   Mar 10 2012, 03:12
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 21:12) Exce...   Mar 10 2012, 23:09
||- - FreaqyFrequency   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 10 2012, 17:09) po...   Mar 11 2012, 04:27
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (FreaqyFrequency @ Mar 11 2012, 03...   Mar 11 2012, 20:42
|||- - xiphmont   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 11 2012, 14:42) QU...   Mar 11 2012, 21:01
|||- - Porcus   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 11 2012, 21:01) As ...   Mar 11 2012, 23:05
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (FreaqyFrequency @ Mar 10 2012, 22...   Mar 12 2012, 05:09
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 12 2012, 04:09) Th...   Mar 12 2012, 10:48
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 09:12) QUOT...   Mar 14 2012, 15:07
- - BearcatSandor   The article mentions that SACDs often sound better...   Mar 7 2012, 05:49
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (BearcatSandor @ Mar 6 2012, 23:49)...   Mar 9 2012, 22:55
- - 2Bdecided   I think this is a fantastic article. Without wis...   Mar 7 2012, 11:19
- - Porcus   My sixth sense (i.e., my faithful placebo) just to...   Mar 7 2012, 12:57
- - icstm   This article is a perfect answer to my FIRST quest...   Mar 7 2012, 15:20
- - LaserSokrates   An excellent read, thank you very much! A bit ...   Mar 9 2012, 23:35
- - hellokeith   Does the statement of the benefits of mixing/maste...   Mar 11 2012, 00:57
|- - icstm   QUOTE (hellokeith @ Mar 10 2012, 23:57) D...   Mar 13 2012, 16:43
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 13 2012, 10:43) I woul...   Mar 13 2012, 17:43
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (drewfx @ Mar 13 2012, 16:43) QUOTE...   Mar 14 2012, 10:33
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 14 2012, 04:33) QU...   Mar 14 2012, 16:41
|- - icstm   QUOTE (drewfx @ Mar 14 2012, 15:41) Yes. ...   Mar 15 2012, 16:34
|- - drewfx   I'm unaware of any audio processing where inau...   Mar 15 2012, 17:35
- - Wombat   At first i have to congrat Monty that he gave us t...   Mar 11 2012, 02:54
|- - julf   QUOTE (Wombat @ Mar 11 2012, 02:54) Greet...   Mar 11 2012, 11:26
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Wombat @ Mar 10 2012, 17:54) There...   Mar 11 2012, 19:33
- - moozooh   In my opinion, the problem we need to focus on is ...   Mar 11 2012, 16:37
- - Wombat   What about recent CD versions that obviously don´t...   Mar 11 2012, 17:42
- - skamp   We're talking about a forum that's called ...   Mar 12 2012, 11:28
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (skamp @ Mar 12 2012, 11:28) while ...   Mar 12 2012, 13:18
|- - icstm   QUOTE (skamp @ Mar 12 2012, 10:28) We...   Mar 12 2012, 17:57
- - bandpass   From the article: QUOTE Modern work flows may invo...   Mar 13 2012, 11:19
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (bandpass @ Mar 13 2012, 11:19) Fro...   Mar 13 2012, 11:49
- - bandpass   Yes, so while a pure float32 system could have pro...   Mar 13 2012, 12:24
- - pdq   I would hardly call float32 a danger zone. Even wh...   Mar 13 2012, 14:07
|- - icstm   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 13 2012, 13:07) I would ...   Mar 13 2012, 16:12
- - bandpass   Yes, but if "Modern work flows may involve li...   Mar 13 2012, 15:24
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (bandpass @ Mar 13 2012, 15:24) Yes...   Mar 13 2012, 15:33
- - bandpass   Yes, the "sqrt rule" applies: 1000 (but...   Mar 13 2012, 16:09
- - mixminus1   QUOTE BTW, did we get an asnwer to this? Yes, it w...   Mar 13 2012, 17:11
- - IgorC   How about just wide public test for 16/44.1, 22/44...   Mar 14 2012, 01:43
- - Wombat   Where is Adam Savage & Jamie Hyneman when you ...   Mar 14 2012, 01:52
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Wombat @ Mar 14 2012, 01:52) Where...   Mar 14 2012, 07:42
- - krabapple   There is no point in distributing audio to consume...   Mar 14 2012, 16:44
- - greynol   It should be pretty clear from the title of the di...   Mar 15 2012, 17:48
|- - icstm   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 15 2012, 16:48) It s...   Mar 16 2012, 11:22
- - greynol   It's really a moot point since 16/44.1 can rep...   Mar 15 2012, 19:14
- - krabapple   xiphmont: evolver's reposting of your article ...   Oct 11 2012, 20:53
|- - bandpass   QUOTE Papers with interesting ideas and no data (e...   Oct 12 2012, 05:51
- - Patrunjica   Fascinating read, there has been one sticking poin...   Oct 13 2012, 23:51
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 18:51) I...   Oct 14 2012, 00:01
- - greynol   Your wave editor is connecting the samples with st...   Oct 13 2012, 23:59
- - Patrunjica   QUOTE (saratoga @ Oct 14 2012, 02:01) You...   Oct 14 2012, 00:13
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 19:13) F...   Oct 14 2012, 00:28
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 19:13) f...   Oct 14 2012, 00:46
- - Wombat   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 14 2012, 00:51) W...   Oct 14 2012, 00:26
- - Patrunjica   True, but each time they repeat they are different...   Oct 14 2012, 01:13
- - greynol   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 17:13) I...   Oct 14 2012, 01:24
- - splice   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 17:13) ....   Oct 14 2012, 01:39
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