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Cleaning up 78 transfers
botface
post Mar 15 2012, 19:36
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 14 2012, 19:38) *
QUOTE (botface @ Mar 14 2012, 18:52) *
FWIW when I was doing my major "78 project" I was in touch with collectors all over the world. They all had several different size/shape styli for different labels/periodsbut invariably listened via RIAA eq. I guess that's partly because RIAA was effectively a default being built in to every amp that had disc replay capability. But knowing the lengths some of them went to in pursuit of their hobby I'm sure they would have spent whatever was necessary to get the right eq if they thought it mattered that much - or maybe they were more interested in the music than the technicalities as 2B says
You may have just known the wrong collectors.
Cheers,
David.

I don't think so. They were mainly the people behind the standard discographies covering the early jazz and dance band eras in the UK, North America/Canada and parts of Europe. Actually it's just occurred to me that maybe they weren't bothered about the correct eq as so much of their collections was "pre electric". Unfortunately I think they're all dead now so I can't check with them
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tinpanalley
post Mar 15 2012, 20:40
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I'm gonna get in touch with someone I know in England who's been working on 78 restorations for some time. Gonna ask him some questions.
But, this has become an interesting thread. smile.gif

This post has been edited by tinpanalley: Mar 15 2012, 20:40
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tinpanalley
post Mar 15 2012, 21:10
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Just double checking.... it's RIAA inverting AND then an EQ applied right? Not one or the other?
One other thing... why is it that you can use 45 and LP figures to apply to a 78 like you did in the case of Capitol to get the Treble turnover? Why does that work if they're different formats?

This post has been edited by tinpanalley: Mar 15 2012, 21:16
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Porcus
post Mar 16 2012, 02:07
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QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 15 2012, 21:10) *
Just double checking.... it's RIAA inverting AND then an EQ applied right? Not one or the other?


Yes. RIAA inversion to revert what your phono input did, EQ to do what a corresponding ('correct') phono input would have done.


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tinpanalley
post Mar 16 2012, 02:34
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 15 2012, 20:07) *
QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 15 2012, 21:10) *
Just double checking.... it's RIAA inverting AND then an EQ applied right? Not one or the other?

Yes. RIAA inversion to revert what your phono input did, EQ to do what a corresponding ('correct') phono input would have done.

Just in case I never mentioned it, I am going into my computer through a USB Phono Plus. I'm sure that's irrelevant just didn't want you to think I was going with RCA cables straight into my computer.

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Porcus
post Mar 16 2012, 13:18
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QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 02:34) *
QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 15 2012, 20:07) *
QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 15 2012, 21:10) *
Just double checking.... it's RIAA inverting AND then an EQ applied right? Not one or the other?

Yes. RIAA inversion to revert what your phono input did, EQ to do what a corresponding ('correct') phono input would have done.

Just in case I never mentioned it, I am going into my computer through a USB Phono Plus. I'm sure that's irrelevant just didn't want you to think I was going with RCA cables straight into my computer.


I guess pretty much everyone assumed you were using a phono stage input which applies the RIAA EQ (whether the signal from there goes to line input or USB input on your computer is irrelevant for EQ). And this device does that (I looked up the manual). So yes, you want to invert this RIAA EQ curve and then apply the correct EQ.

(Had you attempted to plug your turntable RCA's in the line inputs or microphone inputs of your computer's soundcard (and then you would have had to rally off your (electronic) volume knob to beyond 11), there would not have been applied any RIAA EQ to invert.)

This post has been edited by Porcus: Mar 16 2012, 13:21


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tinpanalley
post Mar 16 2012, 15:57
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 16 2012, 07:18) *
(Had you attempted to plug your turntable RCA's in the line inputs or microphone inputs of your computer's soundcard (and then you would have had to rally off your (electronic) volume knob to beyond 11), there would not have been applied any RIAA EQ to invert.)

Ok, cool. Wasn't aware of that. I assumed that even the PCs sound card would have applied something. But I guess if it doesn't have a proper phono input it would never give it the proper signal boost.
Anyway, everything is sounding great. Considering the condition of these Capitols I'm doing right now. With these ones, it's either TONNES of surface noise or a bit of phasing from noise removal. But at least then, you can hear the music.
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Porcus
post Mar 16 2012, 16:33
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QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 15:57) *
I assumed that even the PCs sound card would have applied something.


For all that I know, there might be ones that do. But the typical line-in takes about 1 volt input, microphone in the 0.01 to 0.10 range, and turntable pickups 0.001 to 0.005 (with the low-output moving coils being like 1/10 of this again), so the usual assumption is that users simply do not hook up turntables to them.

Anyway, you have a dedicated phono preamp with RIAA equalization, so what you will get into your computer will have a RIAA curve applied.


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tinpanalley
post Mar 16 2012, 21:08
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Can't thank all you guys enough for your help. I feel like I've learned so much about 78s and audio digitising.
I gotta say, I must be nuts, cause I think the sound of this Decca I'm doing is infinitely better with the RIAA curve. But clearly the RIAA curve has to be inverted. Therefore, perhaps all it needs is to have some bass added. This is where playing it by ear and knowing the music is essential, I guess.
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Porcus
post Mar 16 2012, 21:21
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QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 21:08) *
I gotta say, I must be nuts, cause I think the sound of this Decca I'm doing is infinitely better with the RIAA curve. But clearly the RIAA curve has to be inverted.


Better with the RIAA curve than without, or better with the RIAA curve than with the Decca curve? (Again, these are in part compensatory.)


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tinpanalley
post Mar 16 2012, 21:31
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Better before inverting the RIAA curve. Trust me, I know it's not supposed to have maxed out bass like a rap song, but the stand-up bass in this song goes from being present to non-existent.
Let's put it this way... when the bass sounds better on my phonograph, something's clearly not working. smile.gif
(before you ask... I keep my levels flat on my PC)

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Porcus
post Mar 16 2012, 21:49
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QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 21:31) *
Better before inverting the RIAA curve.


... than (I) after inverting the RIAA curve, or (II) after inverting the RIAA curve AND applying the Decca curve?

Once again: Both 78s and LPs have the bass attenuated.
Your phono stage boosts the bass up to what an LP should have. RIAA inversion removes this bass boost.

That's why you want to apply the Decca curve before complaining wink.gif .


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tinpanalley
post Mar 16 2012, 22:03
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 16 2012, 15:49) *
... than (I) after inverting the RIAA curve, or (II) after inverting the RIAA curve AND applying the Decca curve?

No, no. I'm not explaining myself properly. The sound that comes off the record, through the phono preamp as is with nothing done to it, no RIAA inversion, nothing. THAT sounds better when sped up to 78. Than ANYthing else applied. I understand what inverting the RIAA curve does. But when it's inverted it loses all its range. Adding the Decca curve to it on top of that does nothing significant to the audio.

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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Mar 19 2012, 13:07
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QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 17:03) *
QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 16 2012, 15:49) *
... than (I) after inverting the RIAA curve, or (II) after inverting the RIAA curve AND applying the Decca curve?

No, no. I'm not explaining myself properly. The sound that comes off the record, through the phono preamp as is with nothing done to it, no RIAA inversion, nothing. THAT sounds better when sped up to 78. Than ANYthing else applied. I understand what inverting the RIAA curve does. But when it's inverted it loses all its range. Adding the Decca curve to it on top of that does nothing significant to the audio.


Your terminology could be confusing things. If you are passing a signal through a phono preamp, then by definition of the terms you are using, the inverse RIAA curve has been applied. If you are using a preamp with flat response such as a mic preamp, then the inverse RIAA curve is not being applied.
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2Bdecided
post Mar 19 2012, 15:33
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QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 21:03) *
Adding the Decca curve to it on top of that does nothing significant to the audio.
It can't do nothing, because it does this...
Attached Image

...but overall it's a lot less bass than RIAA.

Cheers,
David.
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2Bdecided
post Mar 19 2012, 15:45
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QUOTE (botface @ Mar 15 2012, 18:36) *
I don't think so. They were mainly the people behind the standard discographies covering the early jazz and dance band eras in the UK, North America/Canada and parts of Europe. Actually it's just occurred to me that maybe they weren't bothered about the correct eq as so much of their collections was "pre electric". Unfortunately I think they're all dead now so I can't check with them
Sadly, I've never known anyone that important personally (and I would love to have met Brian Rust!). The closest person I do know (and he's very much alive) plays his jazz (should be jass!) 78s on whatever he has to hand.

Cheers,
David.
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tinpanalley
post Mar 19 2012, 16:10
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 19 2012, 07:07) *
Your terminology could be confusing things. If you are passing a signal through a phono preamp, then by definition of the terms you are using, the inverse RIAA curve has been applied. If you are using a preamp with flat response such as a mic preamp, then the inverse RIAA curve is not being applied.

Yes, except we had already established which preamp I was using. Anyway, it doesn't matter, I was just trying to say that in my unprofessional opinion and knowledge of the music of the time by that orchestra and that singer, that particular recording with the RIAA NOT inverted sounds more like the intended sound than when the RIAA is applied. And yes, even after applying the Decca curve. It simply never gets enough bass. It's just my own opinion, I could be wrong.
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2Bdecided
post Mar 19 2012, 19:05
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Go on, post a raw capture (45rpm with RIAA intact, lossless, stereo, 30 seconds) and maybe people can see what their ears think?

Cheers,
David.
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Porcus
post Mar 19 2012, 19:14
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QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 19 2012, 16:10) *
It simply never gets enough bass. It's just my own opinion, I could be wrong.


All recordings? I too think you should post a clip, hoping that there are people here who know what 78's really sounded like. I have to admit I don't.

Otto von Bismarck is quoted on saying that politics is the art of the possible. You might have to consider that the technology of those days was not about subwoofers. They might gladly have sacrificed bass (which wouldn't be reproduced well anyway) if they had microphones that made a more lifelike midrange ... well, closer to possible. Now should you 'repair' that with a real bass boost? I guess that is a matter of opinion.


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tinpanalley
post Mar 19 2012, 19:34
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 19 2012, 13:14) *
Now should you 'repair' that with a real bass boost? I guess that is a matter of opinion.

I completely agree. It's fine. I will adjust it according to what I think it should sound like. But I'm able to do so now with all the help you guys have given me. Especially on the curves.
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botface
post Mar 20 2012, 10:24
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 19 2012, 14:45) *
QUOTE (botface @ Mar 15 2012, 18:36) *
I don't think so. They were mainly the people behind the standard discographies covering the early jazz and dance band eras in the UK, North America/Canada and parts of Europe. Actually it's just occurred to me that maybe they weren't bothered about the correct eq as so much of their collections was "pre electric". Unfortunately I think they're all dead now so I can't check with them
Sadly, I've never known anyone that important personally (and I would love to have met Brian Rust!). The closest person I do know (and he's very much alive) plays his jazz (should be jass!) 78s on whatever he has to hand.

Cheers,
David.

Out of interest I got in touch with the only one of those old guys that I know to still be alive - Jack Litchfield; author of The Canadian Jazz Discography. He spent a lot of time transferring his favourites from his collection to CD about 10 years ago. He told me :

"Other, more sophisticated, collectors of my ken use equalizers with many sliding controls to get the absolute best sound.

My philosophy was that, with my antique hearing, it didnít make much difference."


He also reminded me of something many collectors have said to me :
"Also, I wanted my CDs to sound just like my 78s, so I didnít attempt to remove surface noise; I just cleaned up the clicks."

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tinpanalley
post Mar 20 2012, 15:44
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QUOTE (botface @ Mar 20 2012, 04:24) *
"Also, I wanted my CDs to sound just like my 78s, so I didnít attempt to remove surface noise; I just cleaned up the clicks."[/indent]
That's how I handle my LPs and my 78s. I know there are certain people who think there's no point if you're not going to clean it perfectly, but that's how I want my records to sound when I listen to them in a car or on my media player. Somebody once said to me, "You WANT them to sound like crap?" To which i just thought, if that's what you think, what are you doing in a forum about records?
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tinpanalley
post Mar 20 2012, 22:40
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Am I perhaps doing something wrong with Equalizer? I set everything up so that it will automatically invert the RIAA and change the speed and also add the curve I need but it won't do it. The new file seems unaffected.
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2Bdecided
post Mar 21 2012, 10:11
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It doesn't change the speed. It can apply the appropriate curves for a file where you have already changed the speed.

There does seem to be some order of clicking buttons that means it doesn't do anything (when you'd expect it to). I haven't figured out exactly what though. Try loading the file, then (re?)selecting the EQ curves.

Cheers,
David.
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tinpanalley
post Mar 21 2012, 17:39
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 21 2012, 04:11) *
It doesn't change the speed. It can apply the appropriate curves for a file where you have already changed the speed.

Oh. Then if those options are for the state of the original file coming in, why would it matter what your original file was? A curve is a curve isn't it? Why would this program apply the curve differently based on whether the original file was speed corrected or not?

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