IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Cleaning up 78 transfers
tinpanalley
post Feb 24 2012, 01:05
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 7-May 07
Member No.: 43262



Hi all,
I'm taking a 78 recording (and several others that I'm transferring) and trying to clean it up. I'm capturing the audio with Audacity at 32-bit IEEE float, as a stereo recording from a 78 stylus on my turntable at 45 then changing the speed, finishing it off with inverting the RIAA curve.
My question is about cleaning up from this point forward understanding of course that one method simply won't work in every case.

I have Audacity, Sound Forge, DeNoise and ClickRepair. I've tried following this to a certain degree but I have no way of knowing if there's something I'm missing, if it's out of date, if there's a better way, etc. Mastering, I'm ok with. It's just the cleaning part I want to know with the aim of archiving these transfers.

Any thoughts?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
2Bdecided
post Mar 7 2012, 11:26
Post #2


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5142
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



You didn't follow the links posted earlier... wink.gif

From http://www.rfwilmut.clara.net/repro78/repro.html
QUOTE
Not many people have suitable preamplifiers: it is possible to transfer 78s using the usual RIAA equalization for LPs and then convert. Equalizer by Brian Davies is free and will convert RIAA or flat (unequalized) to a number of other equalizations. If you have transferred a 78 at a lower speed and then speeded it up in an audio editor it will also adjust the equalization to suit. Prior to this being available I worked out some figures, and I have left them posted here in case anyone wants to experiment with them.


You can't just remove the RIAA curve and leave it at that. You'll be worse than you started.

Cheers,
David.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
tinpanalley
post Mar 7 2012, 21:08
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 7-May 07
Member No.: 43262



QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 7 2012, 05:26) *
You can't just remove the RIAA curve and leave it at that. You'll be worse than you started.

Ok, and I'm reading about the curves but, for example, I'm doing some Capitol 78s from the 40's. What curve do I apply for those? I have a list of tons of curves but I don't understand how to plot those figures onto a chart to save that curve?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post Mar 8 2012, 11:23
Post #4


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5142
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 7 2012, 20:08) *
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 7 2012, 05:26) *
You can't just remove the RIAA curve and leave it at that. You'll be worse than you started.

Ok, and I'm reading about the curves but, for example, I'm doing some Capitol 78s from the 40's. What curve do I apply for those? I have a list of tons of curves but I don't understand how to plot those figures onto a chart to save that curve?

I'm going to post this link for the third time. If you don't follow it this time, I'm giving up!

http://www.clickrepair.net/software_download/equalizer.html

The only gotchas I found were that you may have to reduce the gain yourself manually (there's a setting, but it won't set it automatically to avoid clipping, so you'll have to set it yourself), and (on my system at least) you seem to have to pick the curves you want before loading the file - picking them after loading the file sometimes causes the previous set of curves to be applied instead. Which is very confusing!

Which ones to use? The choice between Blumlein and Westrex (at least for UK 78s) is explained here...
http://www.rfwilmut.clara.net/repro78/repro.html#eq
QUOTE
78s: WESTREX (English Western Electric) for HMV 78s with triangle matrix code and English Columbias with a (w) matrix code. BLUMLEIN for HMVs with a square by the matrix number, and English Columbias with a ©, or in both cases with no code (post 1945) up to about 1953. BSI 78 for all post 1953 78s (in theory). HMVs with a diamond are American Victor recordings: use WESTREX.


You've already been pointed to this...
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/78rpm_playback_curves
...you can look up anything on there, and see how different it is from the "standard" curves. Unfortunately that table doesn't list the treble turn over frequency - quite an omission, because with it, you can make your own analogue circuit and/or create your own customer filter (in the equalizer software linked above - just type in the treble (=high) and bass (=medium) numbers, and the job is done! Few 78s use a LF roll off (=low) so you can leave that blank).

Hope this helps.

Very general rule (plenty of exceptions): the more modern the 78, the closer it is to RIAA, and the less it matters that you fix it.

Cheers,
David.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
tinpanalley
post Mar 8 2012, 20:10
Post #5





Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 7-May 07
Member No.: 43262



QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 8 2012, 05:23) *
"I'm going to post this link for the third time. If you don't follow it this time, I'm giving up!"
"You've already been pointed to this..."

I see, 2bdecided... you're one of those guys who thinks that people who don't understand things are such a nuisance that you have to point it out to them publicly. Go ahead, give up. If you bothered to read anything I've said, I've made it pretty clear several times that I am looking for something that helps me understand how I would translate the numbers you keep throwing at me into usable curves that I can program myself into an audio editing program. You can throw all the charts and explanations about RIAA you want at me and remind me what I've already been pointed to but it doesn't explain in any way how to turn them into curves for labels that aren't listed. All those specs mean nothing to me if I don't know how to plot them. Does that make sense to you? Do you get what I'm not understanding? Spare me the hollier-than-thou nonsense about how inconvenienced you are by having to repeat yourself when you're not even reading what my questions are. You gave me some useful info but spare me the other crap.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post Mar 8 2012, 23:39
Post #6


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5142
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 8 2012, 19:10) *
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 8 2012, 05:23) *
"I'm going to post this link for the third time. If you don't follow it this time, I'm giving up!"
"You've already been pointed to this..."

I see, 2bdecided... you're one of those guys who thinks that people who don't understand things are such a nuisance that you have to point it out to them publicly. Go ahead, give up. If you bothered to read anything I've said, I've made it pretty clear several times that I am looking for something that helps me understand how I would translate the numbers you keep throwing at me into usable curves that I can program myself into an audio editing program. You can throw all the charts and explanations about RIAA you want at me and remind me what I've already been pointed to but it doesn't explain in any way how to turn them into curves for labels that aren't listed. All those specs mean nothing to me if I don't know how to plot them. Does that make sense to you? Do you get what I'm not understanding? Spare me the hollier-than-thou nonsense about how inconvenienced you are by having to repeat yourself when you're not even reading what my questions are. You gave me some useful info but spare me the other crap.

Why would you need to program these curves into audacity (or any other audio editor) when the software I linked to applies them for you and saves the output as a new wav file? It even has an "RIAA recorded at 45rpm sped up to 78rpm" source preset. You couldn't want more, and it'll be 100x harder trying to do this just in audacity. Save the audio editor for the "by ear" EQ tweaks after you've got the basic reply curves in place.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I wasn't trying to humiliate you - I was just trying to get through to you that you've been given the complete answer four times now, and have ignored it.

Good luck.

David.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
tinpanalley
post Mar 9 2012, 04:28
Post #7





Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 7-May 07
Member No.: 43262



QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 8 2012, 17:39) *
Why would you need to program these curves into audacity (or any other audio editor) when the software I linked to applies them for you and saves the output as a new wav file?

I've got Capitol, Pathe, Odeon, 4 kinds of Columbia, Okeh and severael more that don't appear anywhere in that software. Yes, I did actually install it. What do I do about those? How do I begin to know which one to choose. That's all I was asking. If I get an unrelated answer 3 times, I'll restate my question 3 times. If you don't know anything about CDs and you want to know how to hear one song over and over again and all I tell you is "set it to repeat" that's completely useless because you don't even know what "repeat" is, much less where to find it. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Thanks for the apology, sorry to snap like that but nothing is more infuriating on boards than people who sound like they wanna remind others how much they know about something. More often than not, you're not likely to get an apology. So, acknowledged, accepted, and forgotten. As long as you can forgive my reaction as well.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post Mar 9 2012, 12:44
Post #8


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5142
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 9 2012, 03:28) *
I've got Capitol, Pathe, Odeon, 4 kinds of Columbia, Okeh and severael more that don't appear anywhere in that software. Yes, I did actually install it. What do I do about those? How do I begin to know which one to choose.
If they are on that long list, and if the list included both turnover frequencies (which it doesn't), you'd just type those two values in the high and middle values of a custom filter. Where LF shelving is specified, type that in as the lower number. Where it's not specified just use 20 (or 1). Job done.

Unfortunately, one of the turnover frequencies is missing from all entries in that list! So, I'd look at the values for the type you have, and pick whichever standard curve is closest.

There must be a simple calculation to figure out the exact correct turnover value from the 10kHz cut value, but that's beyond me. It's something like...
treble_turnover_frequency = 5.6 - (0.25 * cut_at_10kHz)
...but that's a pocket calculator guess, not a proper formula.


I can give you MATLAB code to generate the curves from the turnover values though. I've just found the formula in some old EE notes. It's the a=... part below...

CODE
% riaa2.m - plot amplitude against frequency of RIAA filter

f1=50; % lower bass turnover / "low frequency" (if none use 1)
f2=500; % bass turnover  / "middle frequency"
f3=2121; % treble turnover / "high frequency"

f=1:20000; % set up array with frequencies 1-20k to calculate response at each frequency

% calculate response
a=(1+i.*f./f2)./((1+i.*f./f1).*(1+i.*f./f3));

a=a./abs(a(1000));

% uncomment this line to calculate inverse curve...
%a=1./a;

% plot amplitude of result in dB (using 20*log10) on log frequency scale (using semilogx) from 20-20kHz
semilogx(f,20*log10(abs(a)))
xlabel('frequency / Hz')
ylabel('amplitude / dB')
axis([20 20000 -30 30])


...but you don't need it. Unless you really want to program the curve into audacity.



Be prepared for some records not to match the listed curve at all. Sometimes labels licensed recordings from other labels, or went to different studios for one session. In this case, the named curve for that label could be completely wrong for that recording. If it sounds completely wrong to you, have confidence in your ears, and try another. At this point, it really is educated guess work. Trying increasing or decreasing the turnover frequency until it sounds right.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David.
P.S. forgotten.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Mar 9 2012, 12:47
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
tinpanalley
post Mar 9 2012, 19:49
Post #9





Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 7-May 07
Member No.: 43262



QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 9 2012, 06:44) *
So, I'd look at the values for the type you have, and pick whichever standard curve is closest.

I really appreciate the effort to get me to understand this but I'm sorry it's just way too over my head.

Here, for example, are the numbers on that chart for Capitol:
Bass Turnover Frequency (Hz): 400
10 kHz Gain Rolloff (db): -12
Source: 3
And Equalizer gives me the option to enter numbers for High, Medium and Low Frequency. Can you see why I'm confused?
Questions:
- Is the bass turnover frequency the High, Medium, or low?
- How can I use 20 or 1 for LF shelving? Equalizer doesn't even let me enter a value for shelving. Also, I don't understand what these are referring to so I don't get why a variation of 20 - 1 isn't a big jump.
- How do I compare what I have to the curves present if they deal in different values?

I think I'm personally better off capturing the audio, inverting the RIAA curve, cleaning clicks and pops, and then speeding the 45rpm up to 78 and just adjusting by ear. I just don't see any other way.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- tinpanalley   Cleaning up 78 transfers   Feb 24 2012, 01:05
- - DVDdoug   Fortunately, I've never tried cleaning-up a 78...   Feb 24 2012, 03:18
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Feb 24 2012, 02:18) cliv...   Feb 24 2012, 09:27
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Feb 24 2012, 00:05) ...   Feb 24 2012, 11:33
- - tinpanalley   Thanks guys, cliveb, very cool to hear from you di...   Feb 24 2012, 22:32
- - tinpanalley   Hey guys, I've got my wires straightened now. ...   Feb 27 2012, 23:46
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Feb 27 2012, 22:46) ...   Feb 28 2012, 09:58
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Feb 27 2012, 22:46) ...   Feb 28 2012, 11:19
- - tinpanalley   I sometimes feel like I should have been a sound t...   Feb 28 2012, 19:31
- - botface   I cleaned up several hundred 78's a few years ...   Feb 28 2012, 20:27
- - tinpanalley   What's the general thinking with clean-up of s...   Feb 28 2012, 21:45
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Feb 28 2012, 12:45) ...   Feb 29 2012, 05:02
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Feb 28 2012, 20:45) ...   Feb 29 2012, 10:13
- - tinpanalley   That could get tricky with copyrights. Wouldn...   Feb 29 2012, 09:33
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Feb 29 2012, 08:33) ...   Feb 29 2012, 10:14
- - 2Bdecided   I've attached a typical early 1930s UK 78. Po...   Feb 29 2012, 17:33
|- - bandpass   Used to listen to this 78 (and the B-side) lots wh...   Feb 29 2012, 18:04
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (bandpass @ Feb 29 2012, 17:04) Use...   Feb 29 2012, 18:17
- - tinpanalley   Ugh... I transferred a bunch of 78s the other nigh...   Mar 2 2012, 22:32
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 2 2012, 21:32) t...   Mar 3 2012, 19:52
- - markanini   Definitely not subtle. Check this out though: http...   Mar 3 2012, 21:10
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (markanini @ Mar 3 2012, 15:10) Che...   Mar 6 2012, 08:08
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 6 2012, 08:08) Q...   Mar 6 2012, 20:57
|- - tinpanalley   Wow... gets pretty intense. Ultimately, these are ...   Mar 6 2012, 21:34
- - tinpanalley   Am I crazy to think that when I invert the RIAA cu...   Mar 5 2012, 01:42
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 5 2012, 01:42) A...   Mar 5 2012, 02:57
- - tinpanalley   I'm not understanding how to create my own cur...   Mar 5 2012, 03:24
- - botface   I'm sure your instinct is to try to recover th...   Mar 5 2012, 10:15
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (botface @ Mar 5 2012, 04:15) Ultim...   Mar 5 2012, 19:47
|- - botface   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 5 2012, 18:47) Q...   Mar 5 2012, 21:11
- - Porcus   Except the oldest, the 78's had some EQ applie...   Mar 5 2012, 20:43
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 5 2012, 19:43) Except...   Mar 7 2012, 11:22
- - AndyH-ha   Just so you know, there are more than a few phono ...   Mar 6 2012, 10:44
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Mar 6 2012, 04:44)...   Mar 6 2012, 18:09
- - 2Bdecided   You didn't follow the links posted earlier... ...   Mar 7 2012, 11:26
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 7 2012, 05:26) You...   Mar 7 2012, 21:08
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 7 2012, 20:08) Q...   Mar 8 2012, 11:23
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 8 2012, 05:23) ...   Mar 8 2012, 20:10
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 8 2012, 19:10) Q...   Mar 8 2012, 23:39
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 8 2012, 17:39) Why...   Mar 9 2012, 04:28
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 9 2012, 03:28) I...   Mar 9 2012, 12:44
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 9 2012, 06:44) So,...   Mar 9 2012, 19:49
- - DVDdoug   QUOTE I'm doing some Capitol 78s from the 40...   Mar 7 2012, 23:44
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Mar 7 2012, 17:44) So, I...   Mar 8 2012, 00:02
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 7 2012, 23:02) a...   Mar 8 2012, 11:30
- - Porcus   Now remember that the OP did the recording at 45rp...   Mar 7 2012, 23:57
- - Porcus   You should of course keep the original file (both ...   Mar 8 2012, 00:23
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 7 2012, 18:23) You sh...   Mar 8 2012, 03:17
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 8 2012, 01:23) You sh...   Mar 8 2012, 11:32
- - DVDdoug   QUOTE It's a bit to me like when a classic fil...   Mar 8 2012, 21:47
|- - tinpanalley   That, at least, is adding to the atmosphere of a c...   Mar 8 2012, 22:24
- - Porcus   (Mal)apropos: is there is any reason for applying ...   Mar 9 2012, 13:21
- - 2Bdecided   On this page... http://www.rfwilmut.clara.net/repr...   Mar 9 2012, 23:08
|- - tinpanalley   I just heard that whole post in the voice of Bened...   Mar 10 2012, 08:38
- - Porcus   Yes, but: - 30's and 40's recordings were...   Mar 10 2012, 14:03
- - tinpanalley   Ok, so with 2bdecided's help I'll be doing...   Mar 12 2012, 20:54
- - 2Bdecided   Answering your previous point... I don't know...   Mar 12 2012, 21:13
- - pdq   Doing click repair after step 1 also means that yo...   Mar 12 2012, 21:14
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 12 2012, 15:14) Doing cl...   Mar 12 2012, 22:18
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 12 2012, 21:18) ...   Mar 13 2012, 11:02
- - 2Bdecided   I'd fix the speed first, then run it through e...   Mar 12 2012, 21:17
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 12 2012, 15:17) I...   Mar 12 2012, 21:31
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 12 2012, 21:31) ...   Mar 12 2012, 22:03
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 12 2012, 21:03) QUOTE...   Mar 13 2012, 10:56
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 13 2012, 10:56) Eq...   Mar 13 2012, 11:12
- - pdq   The music and clicks would both be moved to higher...   Mar 13 2012, 00:49
- - tinpanalley   Ok so FINALLY cleaned everything up but unfortunat...   Mar 13 2012, 04:19
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 12 2012, 19:19) ...   Mar 13 2012, 04:57
- - 2Bdecided   Equaliser claims to get the phase right too, thoug...   Mar 13 2012, 12:45
- - tinpanalley   Ok, I'll increase levels on my own without cli...   Mar 13 2012, 20:06
- - 2Bdecided   Yes, I usually find the "correct" curve ...   Mar 14 2012, 11:49
- - Porcus   (I am still a bit surprised that I don't find ...   Mar 14 2012, 11:57
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 14 2012, 05:57) (I am...   Mar 14 2012, 18:20
- - botface   FWIW when I was doing my major "78 project...   Mar 14 2012, 19:52
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (botface @ Mar 14 2012, 18:52) FWIW...   Mar 14 2012, 20:38
|- - botface   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 14 2012, 19:38) QU...   Mar 15 2012, 19:36
|- - tinpanalley   I'm gonna get in touch with someone I know in ...   Mar 15 2012, 20:40
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (botface @ Mar 15 2012, 18:36) I do...   Mar 19 2012, 15:45
|- - botface   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 19 2012, 14:45) QU...   Mar 20 2012, 10:24
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (botface @ Mar 20 2012, 04:24) ...   Mar 20 2012, 15:44
- - tinpanalley   Just double checking.... it's RIAA inverting A...   Mar 15 2012, 21:10
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 15 2012, 21:10) ...   Mar 16 2012, 02:07
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 15 2012, 20:07) QUOTE...   Mar 16 2012, 02:34
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 02:34) ...   Mar 16 2012, 13:18
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 16 2012, 07:18) (Had ...   Mar 16 2012, 15:57
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 15:57) ...   Mar 16 2012, 16:33
- - tinpanalley   Can't thank all you guys enough for your help....   Mar 16 2012, 21:08
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 21:08) ...   Mar 16 2012, 21:21
- - tinpanalley   Better before inverting the RIAA curve. Trust me, ...   Mar 16 2012, 21:31
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 21:31) ...   Mar 16 2012, 21:49
|- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 16 2012, 15:49) ... t...   Mar 16 2012, 22:03
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 17:03) ...   Mar 19 2012, 13:07
||- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 19 2012, 07...   Mar 19 2012, 16:10
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 19 2012, 16:10) ...   Mar 19 2012, 19:14
||- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 19 2012, 13:14) Now s...   Mar 19 2012, 19:34
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (tinpanalley @ Mar 16 2012, 21:03) ...   Mar 19 2012, 15:33
- - 2Bdecided   Go on, post a raw capture (45rpm with RIAA intact,...   Mar 19 2012, 19:05
- - tinpanalley   Am I perhaps doing something wrong with Equalizer?...   Mar 20 2012, 22:40
- - 2Bdecided   It doesn't change the speed. It can apply the ...   Mar 21 2012, 10:11
- - tinpanalley   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 21 2012, 04:11) It...   Mar 21 2012, 17:39
2 Pages V   1 2 >


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd September 2014 - 10:01