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World's First Flash Based MPC Player
12345
post Aug 6 2003, 07:35
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QUOTE (R.A.F. @ Aug 6 2003, 07:01 AM)
Conclusion: 128 MB is *maybe* enough for 128 kbit MP3´s, but in no way for the MPC-format.  sad.gif

Hmm... MPC doesn't cease working well below q 5, I think we can pretty clearly see that in Robertos little test:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=11936
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12345
post Aug 6 2003, 07:38
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QUOTE (music_man_mpc @ Aug 4 2003, 01:45 AM)
If by freaky you mean FREAKIN' AMAZING and by limited you mean AUDITORALLY ENLIGHTENED.  Then I agree entirely with your statment.

Yes, as in FREAKIN' AMAZING, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense hanging around here.
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Negative Zero
post Aug 6 2003, 07:54
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Ha ha ha! The translation errors you guys have pointed out are funny as hell. laugh.gif A story about electricity, a 10-thousand year calendar, the fun never stops with this one-of-a-kind product!

Quick, somebody tell me what day of the week New Year's 7432 is gonna be! If only I had a dependable DM-N128+ by my side to tell me those important details. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Negative Zero: Aug 6 2003, 08:04


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rjamorim
post Aug 6 2003, 08:28
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QUOTE (12345 @ Aug 6 2003, 03:35 AM)
Robertos little test

Little? WTF!

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Aug 6 2003, 08:36


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ChrisGranger
post Aug 6 2003, 08:51
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QUOTE (R.A.F. @ Aug 6 2003, 01:01 AM)
QUOTE (Joseph @ May 13 2003, 07:55 AM)
aren't mpc's rather large to be put on a flashbased device?

Indeed. Actually I don´t have any MP3-flash-player, so I had no idea, how many songs only fit on 128 MB....
Here is the result of my calculations, how many MPC-songs fit on a 128 MB flash-memory-card (assumed every song lasts 4 minutes):

--q 5 (176 kbps avg. bitrate): ~ 24 songs. (= 1 song has 5,156 MB)
--q 6 (206 kbps avg. bitrate): ~ 21 songs. (= 1 song has 6,035 MB)
--q 7 (235 kbps avg. bitrate): ~ 18 songs. (= 1 song has 6,885 MB)
--q 8 (265 kbps avg. bitrate): ~ 16 songs. (= 1 song has 7,764 MB)

for comparing:
MP3 128 (128 kbps avg. bitrate): ~ 34 songs. (= 1 song has 3,750 MB)

Conclusion: 128 MB is *maybe* enough for 128 kbit MP3´s, but in no way for the MPC-format. sad.gif

I don't think anyone (or at least not many) would use MPC quality 8 on a portable. This has been discussed extensively here: quality 5 is transparent for most people with most music. Quality 5 is plenty transparent for portable use in my opinion, and 24+ 4-minute songs isn't bad at all for the use of a superior-to-MP3 format.


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ChrisGranger
post Aug 6 2003, 09:02
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 6 2003, 02:28 AM)
QUOTE (12345 @ Aug 6 2003, 03:35 AM)
Robertos little test

Little? WTF!

I think by little he meant, um, big? laugh.gif

I agree with 12345 though, MPC is better than MP3 even at lower bitrates and I would definitely be willing to use quality 4 MPCs in a 128MB portable. (More memory is always nice of course, but it costs more too.) Many people with trained ears have trouble ABXing q5 MPCs, so q4 would probably be good enough for portables since they're often used in noisier environments with lower resolution headphones, for less critical listening.

And hey, it's got a 10,000 year calendar! Hehe. tongue.gif


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Dologan
post Aug 6 2003, 09:05
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QUOTE (R.A.F. @ Aug 6 2003, 12:01 AM)
--q 5 (176 kbps avg. bitrate): ~ 24 songs. (= 1 song has 5,156 MB)
--q 6 (206 kbps avg. bitrate): ~ 21 songs. (= 1 song has 6,035 MB)
--q 7 (235 kbps avg. bitrate): ~ 18 songs. (= 1 song has 6,885 MB)
--q 8 (265 kbps avg. bitrate): ~ 16 songs. (= 1 song has 7,764 MB)

Why do many people believe that MPC does not have any settings below -q 5 or that they are bad? MPC still performs as good as any other modern codec (and still significantly better than LAME) at -q 4, which I estimate would allow you could fit around 30 songs in a 128 MB card.
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R.A.F.
post Aug 6 2003, 09:45
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QUOTE (ChrisGranger @ Aug 6 2003, 09:51 AM)
I don't think anyone (or at least not many) would use MPC quality 8 on a portable. This has been discussed extensively here: quality 5 is transparent for most people with most music. Quality 5 is plenty transparent for portable use in my opinion, and 24+ 4-minute songs isn't bad at all for the use of a superior-to-MP3 format.

True. But what about the downloaded ones? - I have no influence, in which quality-levels others encode. And the portion of mpc´s higher than -q5 encoded is due to the propaganda of diverse release-groups growing daily (you know, that "q7-as-a-minimum-demand"-thing). That´s why I also criticize these q7-encodings. Because of probable use in portable-players with less memory one day.


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user
post Aug 6 2003, 10:02
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hmmm,

I think, talking about "downloaded stuff" is not really appropriate here.



back to topic:



1. It is great, to have a commercial player, which plays MPC.

2. MPC targets to best quality, archive quality.

3. despite MPC has proven in latest 128 kbit/s test, that it is at least as good as the other 128-specialists codecs, most MPC is in q5 and above for ARCHIVAL purposes, best quality, without compromise, ==>> NO 128 kbit/s.
IE. q5 in MPC is far above 128 k, too.

4. CONCLUSION:

a portable MPC player is very nice.
But I and probably many other customers, would like to have a portable device, which can play ordinary & cheap CD-R's, CD-RW's.

Then space ("128 k, q5, q7, q8") would not be an issue anymore !!!



For my mp3's I have a portable, which plays CD-R and CD-RW, too.
I would buy not a flash portable, but a portable with CD-R/RW.


NEXT CONCLUSION:

Because MPC is mostly encoded at higher bitrates starting with q5, q7, and q8, for ARCHIVAL purposes, it makes a lot sense, to sell and buy a stand-alone device, which plays MPC.
A CD-Player or today:
A DVD/CD-Player, which plays DVD-V (maybe DVD-A, too), SVCD/VCD, MP3, MPC !!!!!!!!!
Even MP3 and MPC on DVD-R/RW/+R/+RW.


I think, this Chinese company, which has developed once the portable MPC flash player, should be able to built in the Firmware, the knowledge about MPC decoder easily into other devices like portable CD-player, stand-alone DVD/CD-player for the living-rooms !!!



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rjamorim
post Aug 6 2003, 10:11
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First, why so much bold?

Second, read the thread again. So far, noone could detect if MPC is really being supported or what. And c.b.2000 disappeared again, as it seems.


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user
post Aug 6 2003, 12:16
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bold:

Because I hoped, cb2000 would read here, still.

u see, drawing attention on that topic, worked, somebody answered, lol.


yeah, later on I found, that nothing helpful was written in last time..


if YOU read the whole thread now again, you will find, I repeated my earlier request in this thread, because I found out, that people were still discussing this minor space issue etc.

A company, which writes Firmware with a mpc-decoder, should use it for portzables (flash memory & CD) AND stand-alones for living rooms.

that makes sense, even more money................


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12345
post Aug 6 2003, 12:39
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 6 2003, 08:28 AM)
Little? WTF!

Haha... Swedish sarcasm in action. Calm down Roberto, I think it's big, extensive & huge as hell. And best of all, I think I can speak for most people on this forum wink.gif
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rjamorim
post Aug 11 2003, 05:38
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Any news here?

I frequently see c.b.2000 on the active users list, sometimes even browsing this thread. (I just saw him now)

Still, no post or clarification from him since that link to the press release. sad.gif


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R.A.F.
post Aug 11 2003, 07:34
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Honestly, I don´t think it is a fake at all. Because c.b.2000´s background knowledge is too high for it. And, rjamorim, I really do think MPC is supported by this player, even if it isn´t mentioned directly in the product´s description. Because why should he otherwise announce it in big letters in the headline of this whole thread? - But now as I saw the data-sheet of this player, I don´t know if it is really worth to be bought. It more seems to be a low-cost thing with much too less memory and a too small power-supply. Flash-based would be ok, but you should let decide the customer, how large the memory is, he uses. So, the minimum demand for such a flash-based memory player should be a changeable "compact flash"-memory (best if it would be delivered out without any memory, so the you could go around the corner into an electronic store and buy the memory you want (I would buy a 512 MB-card for it), because those 16 MB-gifts (or maybe even 128 MB), which are mostly added to it, have no practical use. - Or, second opportunity, it is sold at once with "big" cards - at least 256 or 512 MB - where the customer can order the one, he wants. And the power-supply should not be contain only a single AAA-battery, but 2 AA-cells ("Mignon"), so that the higher power-supply needs for this CF-memory does not lead to a too short playtime. And when the marketing is done quite well for this product, I think it will be a hit and a good deal for the manufacturer. The MPC- and Vorbis-communities are not that small than always said.
And last question to c.b.2000: Is the interface of this device only USB 1.1 - or already USB 2.0-capable?

This post has been edited by R.A.F.: Aug 11 2003, 07:39


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My used codecs and settings:
FLAC V1.1.2 -4 / APE V3.99 Update 4 -high / MPC V1.15v --q 5 / LAME V3.97b2 -V2 --vbr-new / OGG aoTuV V4.51 Lancer -q5
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rjamorim
post Aug 11 2003, 07:39
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QUOTE (R.A.F. @ Aug 11 2003, 03:34 AM)
Honestly, I don´t think it is a fake at all. Because c.b.2000´s background knowledge is too high for it. And, rjamorim, I really do think MPC is supported by this player, even it isn´t mentioned directly in the product´s description. Because why should he otherwise announce it in big letters in the headline of this whole thread?

Well, dunno. I'm just saying that his deliberate silence is strange.


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user
post Aug 11 2003, 09:28
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well, another possibility:

sometimes it is usual for companies, to start exploiting the market = us, we in the forum, to see, what we want, or how and what we respond to their ideas.


So,

exchangeable CF cards, 128 min. better 512 MB,

and/or the other way:

CD-R/RW based (not only) portable player,

==>

DVD-A/V/SVCD/ MPC /MP3....... Player for living rooms...

This post has been edited by user: Aug 11 2003, 09:29


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Daybreak
post Aug 11 2003, 10:28
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Well, I wouldn't like to disappoint all of you, but this news was posted on June the 10th, 2 months ago.

Given that I can read Chinese, here's what it says. Apparently, its a successor to the N128 model, manufactured by the company MSC. MSC's website ( after some googling ) can be found here. ( Warning - All chinese! ).

No where does it mention any support of Vorbis / MPC - if so, it really isn't a selling point. Also, sadly to say, the product catalog webpage for MSC doesn't list the N128+. It lists its predecessor, the N128 however....

A brief gooling for the MSC N128+ also turns up this thread, one which seems to be asking for MSC customer's opinions on features that should be added. There doesn't seem to be any site selling it as of now, however, towards the end of the thread, there appears to be a response from an MSC representative stating the ideas/suggestions in the thread will be taken into consideration. That last post seemed to have been dated 2003-7-28.

Hope that was of use to those who are interested in the product!

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indybrett
post Aug 11 2003, 12:36
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QUOTE (Joseph @ May 13 2003, 12:55 AM)
aren't mpc's rather large to be put on a flashbased device?

My music averages around 200kbs using mpc -xtreme. That's roughly the same size as using MP3 --alt-preset standard on the same material.


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phong
post Aug 11 2003, 14:09
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Yeah, looks like vapor to me. For portable MPC support, my money is on the Neuros. It's on sale at buy.com for only $299 :drool:. Hey, my not-birthday is coming up... What a coincidence...


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c.b.2000
post Aug 13 2003, 06:36
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I work for a Chinese company, and this product is design for chinese market, so it maybe not fit for outside China.
For Chinese market, few people know MPC, support it or not is not important, so it is not mentioned in the products description.
The shell of it is not made by us, it is made by Mpman, a Korean company. It has a smart media slot, so we can only support SM but not CF.
For flash base player, it dont need USB 2.0 high speed. Write to flash is very slow. So USB 1.1 (USB 2.0 full speed) is enough.
I think I have try my best to design product with good sound quality. As I mentioned, 100db SNR, 63db THD+N. And I put MPC support on it. It is enough. Surely AAC can be done, but not now, maybe HE-AAC in the future,if I have time to do it.
Because lack of flash memory, it is delay for so long time. But now it is on our product line. Thank god.
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voltron
post Aug 13 2003, 07:54
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Good to see you still here. Any estimations on when it might be available?

voltron
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Halcyon
post Aug 13 2003, 13:22
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While this is very welcome for mpc, I recommend people campaigning Rio to add support for musepack into their Karma HD player.

The hardware should be more than capable of doing it and the player has a potentially very long lifespan ahead of it (high quality, extensibility, connectivity, controlling company, etc.)

Now if we could only convince them that adding musepack support would bring them a few thousand active forum participators who would evangelise their player in various forums all over the world.
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/\/irana
post Aug 13 2003, 19:32
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QUOTE (c.b.2000 @ Aug 12 2003, 09:36 PM)
I work for a Chinese company, and this product is design for chinese market, so it maybe not fit for outside China.
  For Chinese market, few people know MPC, support it or not is not important, so it is not mentioned in the products description.

First,I'm a Chinese.Second,I don't understand the advertising strategy of your company.
You make a portable player supportting MPC ,but don't want to let consumers know.Even don't mention anything about it in the product's description.Just the developer posted a thread in a foreign forum.If I didn't come to here,I wouldn't know that there have been a mpc player in China.Is it weird? sad.gif
I think MPC supported is a big "Selling Point"!
few people know MPC?Perhaps it is truth.But as an old saying of Chinese,"Don't worry about not recognising the goods,just to compare them one by one"(sorry for my bad english,but you know what I mean,isn't it? biggrin.gif )
Show them the rjamorim's BIG test(yeah,big,not little biggrin.gif ) just finished last week.
What a good free advert! Translating the test result isn't a hard work.
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Halcyon
post Aug 13 2003, 20:41
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I don't want to steal c.b.2000's thunder so to speak, but I think this is slightly relevant.

This ig hugof's (who works in the Rio/Karma team and participates in some forums), comment on if musepack support would be a possibility:

"We'd have to evaluate it when a decent, low-memory, low-cpu integer implementation is available. There would have to be some market demand for it, though, as there was (albeit small) with OGG."

http://msg.mp3.com/hardware/liststory/?top...tegory_id=10004

Now, while that's not any sort of a promise or even a hint, it's not an outright rejection of the idea either.

I think there might be a slight possibly of seeing such a feature, if people would ask for it and tell Rio that they will buy the player, if musepack feature would be added.
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rjamorim
post Aug 13 2003, 20:43
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QUOTE (Halcyon @ Aug 13 2003, 04:41 PM)
I don't want to steal c.b.2000's thunder so to speak

You are already doing so. And I find that very unpolite.

Why not post those comments at the two threads already started discussing the Rio Karma?


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