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High Playback Sampling Frequencies, Why are they becoming popular?
icstm
post Feb 17 2012, 16:25
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OK, at the risk of sounding completely stupid?

Why do people listen to music with high sampling frequencies?
What is 88k+ providing them?
I understand why you might record at a high sampling rate, but why keep that for playback?

Looking through the FAQ, there are threads from 2003 that point out that the sampling frequency and bit-dept work in tandem. So the quantisation error of 16bit at 44.1k has the opportunity to be corrected sooner at a higher sampling rate, so in some ways is like a dithering pattern.

However given noise introduced in the analogue systems required to listen to music, a SNR within a 16bit signal of ~96dB seems pretty good.

So assuming that speakers struggle to produce the sounds that a 192k sampling frequency allow (eg 96kHz) and assuming that 16bits were sufficient when compared to the analogue equipment in the system, what have I missed in these high sampling playback formats?
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wakibaki
post Feb 20 2012, 05:14
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Just as an aside, bit depths and sampling rates are interchangeable, you can trade one for the other, with the proviso that the Nyquist limit still holds. A simple on-off signal can encode any analogue signal to an arbitrary degree of accuracy as pulses of equal magnitude and duration if the duration of the pulses is reduced sufficiently. Suppose a 44k1/16 signal were to be recoded into a bitwide stream. If in every sample period (1/44100 sec) between 0 and 65535 bits (ones) (depending on the numeric value of the sampled signal) could be transmitted then the signal would be effectively recoded. For reconstruction purposes the numeric values could be recovered at a rate of 44k1 by a counter if by no other expedient.

The increasing popularity of high playback sampling rates could be attributed to a not entirely irrational desire for margin (overkill).

Amplifiers with very low THD are desired by some (me even). In a circumstance where the limits of perception are difficult to establish, for one reason or another, a simple strategy for ensuring the inaudiblity of error is to exceed the probable limits by a margin, even a large margin.

w

This post has been edited by wakibaki: Feb 20 2012, 05:16


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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Feb 21 2012, 13:51
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QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 19 2012, 23:14) *
The increasing popularity of high playback sampling rates could be attributed to a not entirely irrational desire for margin (overkill).


Good point.

Using higher sampling rates is virtually a no-cost option today. AFAIK every decent converter that is designed for use in audio production work has sample rate options up to 24/192. The extra storage and processing required by the need to handle integer multiples more data are now readily available. This even extends to highly portable equipment.

The same can be said of the use of longer data words.

Neither of them are generally effective at actually producing better sound quality, but as the thinking goes - since: "They cost me nothing and give me the perception of reduced risk..."
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wakibaki
post Feb 22 2012, 02:57
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 21 2012, 12:51) *
Neither of them are generally effective at actually producing better sound quality, but as the thinking goes - since: "They cost me nothing and give me the perception of reduced risk..."


Precisely.

I look forward to the day when both higher sample rates and greater bit-depths are widely adopted, not because I feel they offer an improvement in SQ, but because I think (admittedly perhaps mistakenly) that they will offer less opportunity for the sowing of FUD in the consumer.

w


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saratoga
post Feb 22 2012, 03:54
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QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 21 2012, 20:57) *
I look forward to the day when both higher sample rates and greater bit-depths are widely adopted, not because I feel they offer an improvement in SQ, but because I think (admittedly perhaps mistakenly) that they will offer less opportunity for the sowing of FUD in the consumer.


Ha, I wish. The day everyone has 96k/24 bit audio is the day they start selling 192k remasters smile.gif

No matter how big of a number you have people will eventually find a way to bullshit about a bigger one.
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wakibaki
post Feb 22 2012, 04:44
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 22 2012, 02:54) *
No matter how big of a number you have people will eventually find a way to bullshit about a bigger one.


I understand how you feel, but IMO it is only a feeling. The less people act out of their hopelessness the greater the likelihood things will change. Once we get to 192k it'll be really hard to argue the necessity for anything more.

w


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Posts in this topic
- icstm   High Playback Sampling Frequencies   Feb 17 2012, 16:25
- - Prince Of All Saiyans   I'm not totally sure, but recalling my ever-so...   Feb 17 2012, 16:37
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 17 2012, 1...   Feb 17 2012, 16:55
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 17 2012, 0...   Feb 17 2012, 17:19
||- - Prince Of All Saiyans   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 17 2012, 17:19) QUOT...   Feb 17 2012, 17:53
|- - pawelq   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 17 2012, 1...   Feb 17 2012, 19:05
|- - icstm   QUOTE (pawelq @ Feb 17 2012, 18:05) 10 or...   Feb 18 2012, 00:27
- - dhromed   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 17 2012, 16:25) what h...   Feb 17 2012, 16:51
- - pdq   People sell music with higher sampling rates for t...   Feb 17 2012, 16:52
- - Prince Of All Saiyans   Exactly. That's why you see headphones with fr...   Feb 17 2012, 16:56
- - Bartholomew MacGruber   I'm still confused as to why studios use reall...   Feb 19 2012, 15:14
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Feb 19 2012, 0...   Feb 19 2012, 23:12
||- - Walter_Odington   For producing sound/music then higher bit depths a...   Feb 20 2012, 00:52
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 18...   Feb 20 2012, 01:08
|||- - Walter_Odington   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 00:08) I d...   Feb 20 2012, 01:33
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 16...   Feb 20 2012, 01:48
|||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 19...   Feb 20 2012, 02:06
||- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 16...   Feb 20 2012, 03:37
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Feb 19 2012, 0...   Feb 20 2012, 20:01
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 20 2012, 12:01) ...   Feb 20 2012, 20:46
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Feb 20 2012, 21:46) De...   Feb 20 2012, 21:24
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Feb 20 2012, 14:46) QU...   Feb 21 2012, 13:43
||- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Feb 20 2012, 14:46) De...   Feb 23 2012, 20:04
||- - Walter_Odington   Loved food does generally taste better. Now define...   Feb 23 2012, 21:27
||- - rick.hughes   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 23 2012, 14:04) ...   Feb 24 2012, 14:45
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 20 2012, 14:01) ...   Feb 20 2012, 22:23
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 20 2012, 11:01) ...   Feb 21 2012, 18:12
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Feb 21 2012, 12:12) ...   Feb 21 2012, 19:24
- - Walter_Odington   I see I have walked in to the lions den! I...   Feb 20 2012, 02:34
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 17...   Feb 20 2012, 02:49
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 20...   Feb 20 2012, 02:52
- - Walter_Odington   I think I've misunderestimated the amount of e...   Feb 20 2012, 02:56
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 20...   Feb 20 2012, 03:09
- - Walter_Odington   Saratoga, just seen your latest. I appreciate I ne...   Feb 20 2012, 03:09
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 21...   Feb 20 2012, 03:22
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 19 2012, 23:22) The...   Feb 20 2012, 03:50
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (IgorC @ Feb 19 2012, 21:50) QUOTE ...   Feb 20 2012, 05:59
|- - Walter_Odington   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 04:59) QUO...   Feb 23 2012, 06:37
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 23 2012, 00...   Feb 23 2012, 07:27
- - Walter_Odington   Your right that my understanding is limited given ...   Feb 20 2012, 04:53
- - wakibaki   Just as an aside, bit depths and sampling rates ar...   Feb 20 2012, 05:14
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 19 2012, 23:14) The...   Feb 20 2012, 06:09
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 07:09) QUO...   Feb 20 2012, 08:34
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 19 2012, 23:14) The...   Feb 21 2012, 13:51
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 21 2012, 04...   Feb 21 2012, 18:14
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 21 2012, 12...   Feb 22 2012, 02:57
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 21 2012, 20:57) I l...   Feb 22 2012, 03:54
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 22 2012, 02:54) No ...   Feb 22 2012, 04:44
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 22 2012, 05:44) I u...   Feb 22 2012, 07:59
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 21 2012, 21:54) No ...   Feb 22 2012, 18:42
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 22 2012, 17:42) ...   Feb 22 2012, 18:50
- - icstm   As I wrote the OP, I am going to wade in here ...   Feb 20 2012, 11:32
- - zaentzpantz   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 17 2012, 15:25) OK, at...   Feb 20 2012, 12:02
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 06:02) ...   Feb 20 2012, 14:06
|- - icstm   QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 11:02) ...   Feb 20 2012, 14:43
- - 2Bdecided   People are selling music in high sample rates and ...   Feb 20 2012, 12:21
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 20 2012, 13:21) .....   Feb 20 2012, 15:17
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (knutinh @ Feb 20 2012, 11:17) QUOT...   Feb 20 2012, 18:20
- - WernerO   QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 12:02) ...   Feb 20 2012, 15:22
|- - greynol   Have we conveniently forgotten that CD players com...   Feb 20 2012, 17:05
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 20 2012, 11:05) Have...   Feb 20 2012, 18:19
- - icstm   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 20 2012, 16:05) Have...   Feb 20 2012, 17:19
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 20 2012, 11:19) QUOTE ...   Feb 20 2012, 17:35
- - xnor   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 20 2012, 17:19) In fac...   Feb 20 2012, 17:30
- - greynol   Right, I see that we were talking about removal of...   Feb 20 2012, 17:33
- - icstm   QUOTE (xnor @ Feb 20 2012, 16:30) QUOTE (...   Feb 22 2012, 15:13
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 22 2012, 14:13) ...the...   Feb 22 2012, 15:49
- - xnor   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 22 2012, 15:13) My und...   Feb 22 2012, 15:41
- - icstm   [In response to the above post:] That is what I wa...   Feb 23 2012, 11:00
- - greynol   Let's keep this on-topic, please.   Feb 23 2012, 22:17
- - Prince Of All Saiyans   Magical thinking at its best... http://www.musica...   Feb 24 2012, 17:10
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 24 2012, 1...   Feb 24 2012, 18:34
|- - Ethan Winer   ^^^ LOL at this in particular: "a new 66 bit...   Feb 24 2012, 18:36
- - pdq   It's funny, the rest of their specs seem reaso...   Feb 24 2012, 18:45
- - icstm   We now have an ANSWER!!   Mar 7 2012, 15:21


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