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High Playback Sampling Frequencies, Why are they becoming popular?
icstm
post Feb 17 2012, 16:25
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OK, at the risk of sounding completely stupid?

Why do people listen to music with high sampling frequencies?
What is 88k+ providing them?
I understand why you might record at a high sampling rate, but why keep that for playback?

Looking through the FAQ, there are threads from 2003 that point out that the sampling frequency and bit-dept work in tandem. So the quantisation error of 16bit at 44.1k has the opportunity to be corrected sooner at a higher sampling rate, so in some ways is like a dithering pattern.

However given noise introduced in the analogue systems required to listen to music, a SNR within a 16bit signal of ~96dB seems pretty good.

So assuming that speakers struggle to produce the sounds that a 192k sampling frequency allow (eg 96kHz) and assuming that 16bits were sufficient when compared to the analogue equipment in the system, what have I missed in these high sampling playback formats?
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zaentzpantz
post Feb 20 2012, 12:02
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QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 17 2012, 15:25) *
OK, at the risk of sounding completely stupid?

Why do people listen to music with high sampling frequencies?
What is 88k+ providing them?
I understand why you might record at a high sampling rate, but why keep that for playback?

Looking through the FAQ, there are threads from 2003 that point out that the sampling frequency and bit-dept work in tandem. So the quantisation error of 16bit at 44.1k has the opportunity to be corrected sooner at a higher sampling rate, so in some ways is like a dithering pattern.

However given noise introduced in the analogue systems required to listen to music, a SNR within a 16bit signal of ~96dB seems pretty good.

So assuming that speakers struggle to produce the sounds that a 192k sampling frequency allow (eg 96kHz) and assuming that 16bits were sufficient when compared to the analogue equipment in the system, what have I missed in these high sampling playback formats?


The main benefit of a higher sampling rate is that the anti-aliasing filtering can have a flatter roll-off. There is a school of thought that the harsh sound of cds is due to the brickwall filter at around 20kHz and the effects of it's phase/time aberrations. With 96kHz, the filter only needs to cut off by 48kHz so a gentle slope from 20kHz-48kHz is used with much less phase/time aberrations.
Another is the as yet unexplained effect of supersonic frequencies on the sound, discovered by engineers at George Martins' Air studios in the 70s. One channel module always sounded better than the others in the recording console, and after research by the designer (Rupert Neve) the only difference found was an omitted termination resisitor which allowed the frequency response to extend up to around 90kHz. When fitted it then sounded the same as the other modules and the frequency response was reduced to around 40kHz. Nobody has found out why this could be heard, but the people involved were sufficiently respected to be believed and has given birth to the odd practise of extending audio response beyond our hearing limits.


--------------------
Digital is great but you can always tweak analogue...
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Feb 20 2012, 14:06
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QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 06:02) *
The main benefit of a higher sampling rate is that the anti-aliasing filtering can have a flatter roll-off. There is a school of thought that the harsh sound of cds is due to the brickwall filter at around 20kHz and the effects of it's phase/time aberrations.


AFAIK that so-called school of thought was actually a school of non-thought and non-observation. It has been conclusively shown repeatedly that the alleged harsh sound of PCs were unrelated to the reb book CD's technical parameters or even the portions of the implementation of it that were unique to the CD.

The biggest problem with the CD was that it was such a big technical improvement that it generally made things sound different by actually removing a bunch of technological veils that just about everybody with a serious interest in audio technology knew full well about.

From a practical viewpoint, the introduction of the CD was the most successful advance in media technology until the introduction of the DVD.
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Posts in this topic
- icstm   High Playback Sampling Frequencies   Feb 17 2012, 16:25
- - Prince Of All Saiyans   I'm not totally sure, but recalling my ever-so...   Feb 17 2012, 16:37
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 17 2012, 1...   Feb 17 2012, 16:55
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 17 2012, 0...   Feb 17 2012, 17:19
||- - Prince Of All Saiyans   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 17 2012, 17:19) QUOT...   Feb 17 2012, 17:53
|- - pawelq   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 17 2012, 1...   Feb 17 2012, 19:05
|- - icstm   QUOTE (pawelq @ Feb 17 2012, 18:05) 10 or...   Feb 18 2012, 00:27
- - dhromed   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 17 2012, 16:25) what h...   Feb 17 2012, 16:51
- - pdq   People sell music with higher sampling rates for t...   Feb 17 2012, 16:52
- - Prince Of All Saiyans   Exactly. That's why you see headphones with fr...   Feb 17 2012, 16:56
- - Bartholomew MacGruber   I'm still confused as to why studios use reall...   Feb 19 2012, 15:14
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Feb 19 2012, 0...   Feb 19 2012, 23:12
||- - Walter_Odington   For producing sound/music then higher bit depths a...   Feb 20 2012, 00:52
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 18...   Feb 20 2012, 01:08
|||- - Walter_Odington   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 00:08) I d...   Feb 20 2012, 01:33
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 16...   Feb 20 2012, 01:48
|||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 19...   Feb 20 2012, 02:06
||- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 16...   Feb 20 2012, 03:37
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Feb 19 2012, 0...   Feb 20 2012, 20:01
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 20 2012, 12:01) ...   Feb 20 2012, 20:46
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Feb 20 2012, 21:46) De...   Feb 20 2012, 21:24
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Feb 20 2012, 14:46) QU...   Feb 21 2012, 13:43
||- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Feb 20 2012, 14:46) De...   Feb 23 2012, 20:04
||- - Walter_Odington   Loved food does generally taste better. Now define...   Feb 23 2012, 21:27
||- - rick.hughes   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 23 2012, 14:04) ...   Feb 24 2012, 14:45
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 20 2012, 14:01) ...   Feb 20 2012, 22:23
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 20 2012, 11:01) ...   Feb 21 2012, 18:12
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Feb 21 2012, 12:12) ...   Feb 21 2012, 19:24
- - Walter_Odington   I see I have walked in to the lions den! I...   Feb 20 2012, 02:34
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 17...   Feb 20 2012, 02:49
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 20...   Feb 20 2012, 02:52
- - Walter_Odington   I think I've misunderestimated the amount of e...   Feb 20 2012, 02:56
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 20...   Feb 20 2012, 03:09
- - Walter_Odington   Saratoga, just seen your latest. I appreciate I ne...   Feb 20 2012, 03:09
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 21...   Feb 20 2012, 03:22
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 19 2012, 23:22) The...   Feb 20 2012, 03:50
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (IgorC @ Feb 19 2012, 21:50) QUOTE ...   Feb 20 2012, 05:59
|- - Walter_Odington   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 04:59) QUO...   Feb 23 2012, 06:37
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 23 2012, 00...   Feb 23 2012, 07:27
- - Walter_Odington   Your right that my understanding is limited given ...   Feb 20 2012, 04:53
- - wakibaki   Just as an aside, bit depths and sampling rates ar...   Feb 20 2012, 05:14
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 19 2012, 23:14) The...   Feb 20 2012, 06:09
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 07:09) QUO...   Feb 20 2012, 08:34
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 19 2012, 23:14) The...   Feb 21 2012, 13:51
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 21 2012, 04...   Feb 21 2012, 18:14
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 21 2012, 12...   Feb 22 2012, 02:57
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 21 2012, 20:57) I l...   Feb 22 2012, 03:54
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 22 2012, 02:54) No ...   Feb 22 2012, 04:44
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 22 2012, 05:44) I u...   Feb 22 2012, 07:59
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 21 2012, 21:54) No ...   Feb 22 2012, 18:42
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 22 2012, 17:42) ...   Feb 22 2012, 18:50
- - icstm   As I wrote the OP, I am going to wade in here ...   Feb 20 2012, 11:32
- - zaentzpantz   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 17 2012, 15:25) OK, at...   Feb 20 2012, 12:02
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 06:02) ...   Feb 20 2012, 14:06
|- - icstm   QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 11:02) ...   Feb 20 2012, 14:43
- - 2Bdecided   People are selling music in high sample rates and ...   Feb 20 2012, 12:21
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 20 2012, 13:21) .....   Feb 20 2012, 15:17
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (knutinh @ Feb 20 2012, 11:17) QUOT...   Feb 20 2012, 18:20
- - WernerO   QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 12:02) ...   Feb 20 2012, 15:22
|- - greynol   Have we conveniently forgotten that CD players com...   Feb 20 2012, 17:05
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 20 2012, 11:05) Have...   Feb 20 2012, 18:19
- - icstm   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 20 2012, 16:05) Have...   Feb 20 2012, 17:19
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 20 2012, 11:19) QUOTE ...   Feb 20 2012, 17:35
- - xnor   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 20 2012, 17:19) In fac...   Feb 20 2012, 17:30
- - greynol   Right, I see that we were talking about removal of...   Feb 20 2012, 17:33
- - icstm   QUOTE (xnor @ Feb 20 2012, 16:30) QUOTE (...   Feb 22 2012, 15:13
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 22 2012, 14:13) ...the...   Feb 22 2012, 15:49
- - xnor   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 22 2012, 15:13) My und...   Feb 22 2012, 15:41
- - icstm   [In response to the above post:] That is what I wa...   Feb 23 2012, 11:00
- - greynol   Let's keep this on-topic, please.   Feb 23 2012, 22:17
- - Prince Of All Saiyans   Magical thinking at its best... http://www.musica...   Feb 24 2012, 17:10
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 24 2012, 1...   Feb 24 2012, 18:34
|- - Ethan Winer   ^^^ LOL at this in particular: "a new 66 bit...   Feb 24 2012, 18:36
- - pdq   It's funny, the rest of their specs seem reaso...   Feb 24 2012, 18:45
- - icstm   We now have an ANSWER!!   Mar 7 2012, 15:21


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