IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

High Playback Sampling Frequencies, Why are they becoming popular?
icstm
post Feb 17 2012, 16:25
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 121
Joined: 25-January 12
Member No.: 96698



OK, at the risk of sounding completely stupid?

Why do people listen to music with high sampling frequencies?
What is 88k+ providing them?
I understand why you might record at a high sampling rate, but why keep that for playback?

Looking through the FAQ, there are threads from 2003 that point out that the sampling frequency and bit-dept work in tandem. So the quantisation error of 16bit at 44.1k has the opportunity to be corrected sooner at a higher sampling rate, so in some ways is like a dithering pattern.

However given noise introduced in the analogue systems required to listen to music, a SNR within a 16bit signal of ~96dB seems pretty good.

So assuming that speakers struggle to produce the sounds that a 192k sampling frequency allow (eg 96kHz) and assuming that 16bits were sufficient when compared to the analogue equipment in the system, what have I missed in these high sampling playback formats?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Bartholomew MacG...
post Feb 19 2012, 15:14
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 21
Joined: 9-February 12
Member No.: 97028



I'm still confused as to why studios use really high sampling frequencies. I have a vague understanding of why higher bit depths might be needed for adujsting levels, but I don't get why they need higher sampling rates.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
saratoga
post Feb 19 2012, 23:12
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 4924
Joined: 2-September 02
Member No.: 3264



QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Feb 19 2012, 09:14) *
I'm still confused as to why studios use really high sampling frequencies. I have a vague understanding of why higher bit depths might be needed for adujsting levels, but I don't get why they need higher sampling rates.


bigger number == better
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Walter_Odington
post Feb 20 2012, 00:52
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 13
Joined: 20-February 12
Member No.: 97258



For producing sound/music then higher bit depths and sample rates can have advantages (and disadvantages).

- time stretch and other granular based pitch/time changes allow smaller grain size, and relatively smoother grain size resolution. A clearly audible difference can be heard here.

- signal processing at higher depth/resolution can preserve signals above above audible frequencies that will affect the sound at audible frequencies i.e. control signals may have less audible artefacts at hight depth/resolution. Simular to above.

- resampling to change pitch is a common process. Resampling at higher resolution will remain more faithful to the original, and sounds outside of the audible range may be transposed down whereas if sampled at 44.1 you may end up with dull sounds when pitched down (although, who knows what is up there!).

- Presumably higher bit depth give you more range to play with when recording. Someone may correct me on that one.

- Higher depth/resolution hardware tends to be more inaccurate, jitter etc.

- Processing overhead and disk space usage could be quite insane.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
saratoga
post Feb 20 2012, 01:08
Post #5





Group: Members
Posts: 4924
Joined: 2-September 02
Member No.: 3264



QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 18:52) *
For producing sound/music then higher bit depths and sample rates can have advantages (and disadvantages).

- time stretch and other granular based pitch/time changes allow smaller grain size, and relatively smoother grain size resolution. A clearly audible difference can be heard here.

- signal processing at higher depth/resolution can preserve signals above above audible frequencies that will affect the sound at audible frequencies i.e. control signals may have less audible artefacts at hight depth/resolution. Simular to above.

- resampling to change pitch is a common process. Resampling at higher resolution will remain more faithful to the original, and sounds outside of the audible range may be transposed down whereas if sampled at 44.1 you may end up with dull sounds when pitched down (although, who knows what is up there!).


I don't think any of this is true with respect to sampling rate, since any effect processing could trivially upsample if it actually needed to prior to processing. Like I said before, I think the ral reason that higher sampling rates are used is that they exist and there is no real down side to using them so people use them. People really do like bigger numbers.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Walter_Odington
post Feb 20 2012, 01:33
Post #6





Group: Members
Posts: 13
Joined: 20-February 12
Member No.: 97258



QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 00:08) *
I don't think any of this is true with respect to sampling rate, since any effect processing could trivially upsample if it actually needed to prior to processing. Like I said before, I think the ral reason that higher sampling rates are used is that they exist and there is no real down side to using them so people use them. People really do like bigger numbers.


Depends on the software. For example, ableton live time stretch is based on the DAW setting, Reaktor has its own processing settings, and UAD has 192 sample rate as standard.

Im not saying higher is better for all situations, but these are some which do benefit from higher numbers. On the flip side, I could imagine a situation where a CD would have been better off coming from a 44.1 native project than a 96 kHz project due to quantisation error, so I don't think higher is better in ever situation. For me, it makes sense to work in as high a resolution as possible even if the delivery file is a 3gp, because the processing has a clearly audible difference. Plus I get drawn in to marketing speil :-p
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
saratoga
post Feb 20 2012, 02:06
Post #7





Group: Members
Posts: 4924
Joined: 2-September 02
Member No.: 3264



QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 19:33) *
QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 00:08) *
I don't think any of this is true with respect to sampling rate, since any effect processing could trivially upsample if it actually needed to prior to processing. Like I said before, I think the ral reason that higher sampling rates are used is that they exist and there is no real down side to using them so people use them. People really do like bigger numbers.


Depends on the software. For example, ableton live time stretch is based on the DAW setting, Reaktor has its own processing settings, and UAD has 192 sample rate as standard.


You're just pointing out what I said: that people like higher numbers. But that says nothing about the importance of those numbers.

QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 19:33) *
Im not saying higher is better for all situations, but these are some which do benefit from higher numbers.


Would it trouble you to mention them?

QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 19:33) *
On the flip side, I could imagine a situation where a CD would have been better off coming from a 44.1 native project than a 96 kHz project due to quantisation error,


Quantization error has absolutely nothing to do with sampling rate. Perhaps you should look up what quantization error is prior to expressing your opinions on it . . .
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- icstm   High Playback Sampling Frequencies   Feb 17 2012, 16:25
- - Prince Of All Saiyans   I'm not totally sure, but recalling my ever-so...   Feb 17 2012, 16:37
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 17 2012, 1...   Feb 17 2012, 16:55
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 17 2012, 0...   Feb 17 2012, 17:19
||- - Prince Of All Saiyans   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 17 2012, 17:19) QUOT...   Feb 17 2012, 17:53
|- - pawelq   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 17 2012, 1...   Feb 17 2012, 19:05
|- - icstm   QUOTE (pawelq @ Feb 17 2012, 18:05) 10 or...   Feb 18 2012, 00:27
- - dhromed   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 17 2012, 16:25) what h...   Feb 17 2012, 16:51
- - pdq   People sell music with higher sampling rates for t...   Feb 17 2012, 16:52
- - Prince Of All Saiyans   Exactly. That's why you see headphones with fr...   Feb 17 2012, 16:56
- - Bartholomew MacGruber   I'm still confused as to why studios use reall...   Feb 19 2012, 15:14
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Feb 19 2012, 0...   Feb 19 2012, 23:12
||- - Walter_Odington   For producing sound/music then higher bit depths a...   Feb 20 2012, 00:52
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 18...   Feb 20 2012, 01:08
|||- - Walter_Odington   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 00:08) I d...   Feb 20 2012, 01:33
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 16...   Feb 20 2012, 01:48
|||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 19...   Feb 20 2012, 02:06
||- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 16...   Feb 20 2012, 03:37
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Bartholomew MacGruber @ Feb 19 2012, 0...   Feb 20 2012, 20:01
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 20 2012, 12:01) ...   Feb 20 2012, 20:46
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Feb 20 2012, 21:46) De...   Feb 20 2012, 21:24
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Feb 20 2012, 14:46) QU...   Feb 21 2012, 13:43
||- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Feb 20 2012, 14:46) De...   Feb 23 2012, 20:04
||- - Walter_Odington   Loved food does generally taste better. Now define...   Feb 23 2012, 21:27
||- - rick.hughes   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 23 2012, 14:04) ...   Feb 24 2012, 14:45
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 20 2012, 14:01) ...   Feb 20 2012, 22:23
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 20 2012, 11:01) ...   Feb 21 2012, 18:12
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Feb 21 2012, 12:12) ...   Feb 21 2012, 19:24
- - Walter_Odington   I see I have walked in to the lions den! I...   Feb 20 2012, 02:34
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 17...   Feb 20 2012, 02:49
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 20...   Feb 20 2012, 02:52
- - Walter_Odington   I think I've misunderestimated the amount of e...   Feb 20 2012, 02:56
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 20...   Feb 20 2012, 03:09
- - Walter_Odington   Saratoga, just seen your latest. I appreciate I ne...   Feb 20 2012, 03:09
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 19 2012, 21...   Feb 20 2012, 03:22
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 19 2012, 23:22) The...   Feb 20 2012, 03:50
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (IgorC @ Feb 19 2012, 21:50) QUOTE ...   Feb 20 2012, 05:59
|- - Walter_Odington   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 04:59) QUO...   Feb 23 2012, 06:37
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Walter_Odington @ Feb 23 2012, 00...   Feb 23 2012, 07:27
- - Walter_Odington   Your right that my understanding is limited given ...   Feb 20 2012, 04:53
- - wakibaki   Just as an aside, bit depths and sampling rates ar...   Feb 20 2012, 05:14
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 19 2012, 23:14) The...   Feb 20 2012, 06:09
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 20 2012, 07:09) QUO...   Feb 20 2012, 08:34
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 19 2012, 23:14) The...   Feb 21 2012, 13:51
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 21 2012, 04...   Feb 21 2012, 18:14
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 21 2012, 12...   Feb 22 2012, 02:57
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 21 2012, 20:57) I l...   Feb 22 2012, 03:54
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 22 2012, 02:54) No ...   Feb 22 2012, 04:44
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Feb 22 2012, 05:44) I u...   Feb 22 2012, 07:59
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (saratoga @ Feb 21 2012, 21:54) No ...   Feb 22 2012, 18:42
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Feb 22 2012, 17:42) ...   Feb 22 2012, 18:50
- - icstm   As I wrote the OP, I am going to wade in here ...   Feb 20 2012, 11:32
- - zaentzpantz   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 17 2012, 15:25) OK, at...   Feb 20 2012, 12:02
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 06:02) ...   Feb 20 2012, 14:06
|- - icstm   QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 11:02) ...   Feb 20 2012, 14:43
- - 2Bdecided   People are selling music in high sample rates and ...   Feb 20 2012, 12:21
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 20 2012, 13:21) .....   Feb 20 2012, 15:17
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (knutinh @ Feb 20 2012, 11:17) QUOT...   Feb 20 2012, 18:20
- - WernerO   QUOTE (zaentzpantz @ Feb 20 2012, 12:02) ...   Feb 20 2012, 15:22
|- - greynol   Have we conveniently forgotten that CD players com...   Feb 20 2012, 17:05
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 20 2012, 11:05) Have...   Feb 20 2012, 18:19
- - icstm   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 20 2012, 16:05) Have...   Feb 20 2012, 17:19
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 20 2012, 11:19) QUOTE ...   Feb 20 2012, 17:35
- - xnor   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 20 2012, 17:19) In fac...   Feb 20 2012, 17:30
- - greynol   Right, I see that we were talking about removal of...   Feb 20 2012, 17:33
- - icstm   QUOTE (xnor @ Feb 20 2012, 16:30) QUOTE (...   Feb 22 2012, 15:13
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 22 2012, 14:13) ...the...   Feb 22 2012, 15:49
- - xnor   QUOTE (icstm @ Feb 22 2012, 15:13) My und...   Feb 22 2012, 15:41
- - icstm   [In response to the above post:] That is what I wa...   Feb 23 2012, 11:00
- - greynol   Let's keep this on-topic, please.   Feb 23 2012, 22:17
- - Prince Of All Saiyans   Magical thinking at its best... http://www.musica...   Feb 24 2012, 17:10
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Prince Of All Saiyans @ Feb 24 2012, 1...   Feb 24 2012, 18:34
|- - Ethan Winer   ^^^ LOL at this in particular: "a new 66 bit...   Feb 24 2012, 18:36
- - pdq   It's funny, the rest of their specs seem reaso...   Feb 24 2012, 18:45
- - icstm   We now have an ANSWER!!   Mar 7 2012, 15:21


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 1st September 2014 - 09:33