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Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Emon
post Jan 23 2012, 08:33
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QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 18:08) *
I am just a guy with some background in mission-critical systems software who figured perhaps some well-known (or less well known) software engineering methods


As a software engineer both professionally and personally for the majority of the time I've been alive, there is no way you could be a software engineer and believe the retarded claims you make on your site. Especially the bit about "fitting in the cache." You are either full of shit or just a shitty engineer.
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probedb
post Jan 23 2012, 09:44
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QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 23:08) *
Probedb: perhaps you missed this – I am no ‘corporation’ – I am a single guy who does this in his spare time – I don’t have equipment to measure if jitter is 2 or 5 picoseconds nor do I make any such claims, lol…

I am just a guy with some background in mission-critical systems software who figured perhaps some well-known (or less well known) software engineering methods of the trade used in e.g. handling of large-volume of real-time transactions were quick turnaround is of paramount importance could be applied to music playback software as digital is highly sensitive to timing too – that’s all, no more, no less, you can choose to try it for yourself and make up your own mind or you can decide not to try and instead bash me: whichever you do I could care less…


I'm sorry but what difference does who you are make to this at all? And really, adding "lol" makes you sound like a 12 year old.
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dhromed
post Jan 23 2012, 10:36
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Software homeopathy.
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Nessuno
post Jan 23 2012, 11:10
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QUOTE (bug80 @ Jan 23 2012, 07:25) *
It seems thar everyone missed the fact that jozef agreed to perform double-blind testing a couple of posts ago. So, how can we help him to set up a test?


According to what is written on JPlay website about the way it operates, maybe different testing should be performed at different system workloads.

By the way: I cannot participate in any test as I don't use MS Windows at home, but as a hint, I'd also investigate on how installing JPlay affect the stability of the underlying OS. I suspect that trying to force a modern general purpose system to act as a embedded microcontroller is something that in the long terms does more harm than good (even to SQ)...

This post has been edited by Nessuno: Jan 23 2012, 11:13


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bug80
post Jan 23 2012, 11:16
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josef, you asked for specifics regarding the ABX testing.

I'd suggest that you start reading about ABX testing here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test

and download the ABX plugin for Foobar2k: http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx

Next, it is probably best if you make two recordings of a particular song: one with and one without Jplay. The recordings should have the same amplitude and should be sample aligned, obviously.

You can then ABX both recordings using the foobar plugin. You can also invite other people to do the test.

This would be a start. Maybe someone else has better ideas?

Good luck!
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spoon
post Jan 23 2012, 12:59
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Lets just put some perspective on all this talk of CPU caching...1 gigahertz = 1 000 000 KHz, that is right the core speed of modern CPUs is 1 million times faster than a 3KHz signal, if that does not make people wake up and start asking questions nothing will, as though a CPU is held back if the program is not in CPU cache, not to mention to keep code in a cpu cache with out invalidation is neigh on impossible on a Windows based system.

Playback of 44KHz might have been challenging 20 years ago, it is no longer so.


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spoon
post Jan 23 2012, 13:07
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If people are so concerned about jitter and buffers, save your money that you would have spent on software and get an external USB DAC which has a buffer and is Asynchronous, then you can be sure the DAC clock is not effected by anything except relativity (which might be too much even for some...) and the buffer ensures that the million times faster PC can supply data on time.

This post has been edited by spoon: Jan 23 2012, 13:07


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db1989
post Jan 23 2012, 13:50
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QUOTE (Emon @ Jan 23 2012, 07:33) *
QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 18:08) *
I am just a guy with some background in mission-critical systems software who figured perhaps some well-known (or less well known) software engineering methods
As a software engineer both professionally and personally for the majority of the time I've been alive, there is no way you could be a software engineer and believe the retarded claims you make on your site. Especially the bit about "fitting in the cache." You are either full of shit or just a shitty engineer.
I like a well-placed swear as much as the next person, but it is totally unnecessary in this context, and it brings you ever closer to TOS #2.
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godrick
post Jan 23 2012, 15:31
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QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 23 2012, 12:10) *
QUOTE (bug80 @ Jan 23 2012, 07:25) *
It seems thar everyone missed the fact that jozef agreed to perform double-blind testing a couple of posts ago. So, how can we help him to set up a test?


According to what is written on JPlay website about the way it operates, maybe different testing should be performed at different system workloads.

By the way: I cannot participate in any test as I don't use MS Windows at home, but as a hint, I'd also investigate on how installing JPlay affect the stability of the underlying OS. I suspect that trying to force a modern general purpose system to act as a embedded microcontroller is something that in the long terms does more harm than good (even to SQ)...


I suspect that his request was a passive-agressive tactic rather than genuine, but hoping that he rises to the occasion and proves such thoughts wrong, some other relevant links to design and conduct a valid test and draw appropriate conclusions:

the entire forum on listening tests: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=40
the pinned thread on links to listening tests: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=82777
the pinned thread on what is a blind ABX test: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=16295
the scientific method introduction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
design of experiments introduction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments
statistics introduction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics
statistics discussions http://www.talkstats.com/forumdisplay.php/2-Statistics

Given that much of this is first introduced in high school and repeatedly addressed in university engineering and science programs throughout the world, one must doubt either his claimed credentials or his competency.

This post has been edited by godrick: Jan 23 2012, 15:31
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kraut
post Jan 23 2012, 17:22
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I see that the dbpa developer is participating. Consider the fact what value for money dbpa delivers (38$) - which I have tried, found it to be very good but was not willing to pay in light of the existence of foobar, sorry, spoon- the 99 Euro (about 130 in real money) for what? seems outrageous and can only be justified by the existence of enough idiots out there willing to buy what?: a tweak that promises - again - audioheaven, as usually again without any evidence.

It is the typical audiophile(phool) gambit all over again, and I suggest he channels his product through machina dynamica. It will fit right in with their program.

To bring some hilarity to the subject:

QUOTE
Our New Product!!The Quantum Temple Bell by Machina Dynamica, a unique room enhancement device for sound and video. The Quantum Temple Bell is a treated brass Tibetan hand bell that operates quantum mechanically to improve the performance of all audio and video systems. The bell is rung several times in each "strategic location" around the room, especially prior to critical listening. The effects of the Quantum Temple Bell are long lasting, at least several weeks. It is recommended that the Quantum Temple Bell ringing be performed about once a month for optimum results. Machina Dynamica provides instructions for how to use the Quantum Temple Bell with purchase. Only $129.
http://www.machinadynamica.com/

This post has been edited by kraut: Jan 23 2012, 17:32
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JimH
post Jan 23 2012, 18:15
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QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 23 2012, 06:07) *
If people are so concerned about jitter and buffers, save your money that you would have spent on software and get an external USB DAC which has a buffer and is Asynchronous, then you can be sure the DAC clock is not effected by anything except relativity (which might be too much even for some...) and the buffer ensures that the million times faster PC can supply data on time.

Totally agree with this. The concern about timing of bits on the PC / player side is irrelevant in any case where the receiving device has a buffer and has its own clock. The PC can fill this buffer irregularly, so long as the buffer never runs dry.

This is in fact, the way drivers like WASAPI work. The buffer is filled at intervals. If the device couldn't find bits in the buffer when it needed them, the music would never sound like music.
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Gecko
post Jan 23 2012, 19:45
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While I wholeheartedly agree with spoon and JimH, the jplay page states this in the FAQ:

QUOTE (http://jplay.eu/faq/)
6 My DAC is buffering data so I’m really not concerned with PC keeping a perfect timing.
You should be. Simple truth is that the less processing the DAC needs to do, the better the results. Again, if you are doubtful, JPLAY is FREE to try! Trust only your own ears!


I wonder what this "less processing" is. Does the DAC turn off its buffer handler when it detects a jplay bitstream? Do DACs connected using the horrible, horrible USB protocol benefit as well (assuming spdif to be the preferred audiophile solution, but what do I know)?
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Porcus
post Jan 23 2012, 19:58
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QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 23 2012, 17:22) *
I see that the dbpa developer is participating. Consider the fact what value for money dbpa delivers (38$) - which I have tried, found it to be very good but was not willing to pay in light of the existence of foobar, sorry, spoon- the 99 Euro (about 130 in real money) for what?


Remember that not everyone is like you. There are people who pay as little as possible, and there are people who pay more. Myself I have paid for dBpoweramp (Reference), I have supported a couple of freeware applications I use often, and if this product could indeed ensure playback with full control over every MS-Windows annoyance which makes my home computer stutter under load and my old work-computer (now replaced, thank you) stop hissing upon scroll, then ¥€$!, it would be worth at least a few GBP.

But then on the other hand, a company that comes with a «you can only install the applications we have approved» clause, is sure as hell not getting my money. Maybe I'm a bit irrational, but it would hurt a bit to actually pay for being treated like that – BTW, when Microsoft tried to pull some «only this OS on this computer» license on me, it took me years until I bought a MS-Windows-preinstalled computer again.


Irrational? Well, Josef may or may not use that word to explain why I am not shedding out Pesetas in his direction.


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JJZolx
post Jan 23 2012, 21:23
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QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 23 2012, 05:07) *
If people are so concerned about jitter and buffers, save your money that you would have spent on software and get an external USB DAC which has a buffer and is Asynchronous, then you can be sure the DAC clock is not effected by anything except relativity (which might be too much even for some...) and the buffer ensures that the million times faster PC can supply data on time.


I think you'd find that the overwhelming majority of purchasers of JPLAY, Pure Music and Amarra _are_ using an external USB DAC.
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Canar
post Jan 23 2012, 22:03
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While we're busy implying unproven things like USB DACs providing superior performance to internal ones, I'd figure that SPDIF-optical would be even better because there's zero electrical coupling occurring. The only noise that can be transmitted is via jitter in the light-stream.

Note that there is no evidence that either USB DACs or SPDIF DACs necessarily show improved performance; I'm merely being vaguely facetious.


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MichaelW
post Jan 23 2012, 22:13
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As I understand it, the claim for Jplay, and similar programs, is that they disable as much as possible of the computer's activity so that the music data is unimpeded in its stately transit.

Couldn't we take this a stage further, and develop a device that, by design, does nothing but process music data? We could have it disconnected from the net, and with only the most rudimentary input and output devices, too.

Oh, I think it's called a PMP. You can get quite a good one for 99 Euros, I think.

Meanwhile, in view of the slightly veiled claims, let me mention the great IPO of 1720: a company "for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is."
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Porcus
post Jan 23 2012, 22:18
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QUOTE (Canar @ Jan 23 2012, 22:03) *
SPDIF-optical


Computers have onboard some possibly noisy PSU, and if in addition there is bad ground ... anyone else who have seen 'ripples' in the picture on old TVs when a certain electrical component switched on?

Unfortunately, you risk getting precisely the same thing through the mains. But you might rid yourself of a ground loop.


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spoon
post Jan 23 2012, 22:21
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External DACs can also employ electrical isolation on board (where as the power is drawn from USB for one side, and external power-powers the other side of isolation), SPDIF is a point of contention also around jitter (not one I subscribe to as buffers can remove jitter), I2C has a clock with the signal.

I think the market for laptop dacs is many times larger than desktop PCs these days, saying that on board audio has come on leaps and bounds over the decade.

QUOTE
Couldn't we take this a stage further, and develop a device that, by design, does nothing but process music data?


Yes and one which is isolated from the mains, uses flash memory, not HDDs, I think this device of the future is called an ipod touch wink.gif

This post has been edited by spoon: Jan 23 2012, 22:23


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godrick
post Jan 24 2012, 02:22
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Jan 23 2012, 22:18) *
QUOTE (Canar @ Jan 23 2012, 22:03) *
SPDIF-optical


Computers have onboard some possibly noisy PSU, and if in addition there is bad ground ... anyone else who have seen 'ripples' in the picture on old TVs when a certain electrical component switched on?

Unfortunately, you risk getting precisely the same thing through the mains. But you might rid yourself of a ground loop.



I know you mean well and have no scam in mind, so I bear no anger as I point out that deflections in the electron beam as used by old TVs as a result of electromagnetic interference (EMI) has little to no relevance to how power supplies and EMI impact modern digital circuits. Its just an fact that binary switching in today's integrated circuits is incredibly immune to EMI (by design, not a coincidence) - if the EMI doesn't cause a power rail to collapse, then there is no impact at all, and even if a power rail collapses for a given clock cycle, if this collapse doesn't persist for many, many clock cycles, then human perception is ecxtremely unlikely to detect any impact. In other words, if interference causes a raggedly 1 or a raggedly 0, but the circuit still sees these as a 1 or 0 respectively, then there is no impact from interference. Poorly designed circuits can latch up or enter states from which a circuit cannot quickly recover, but that's an indication of poor design that is easily avoided. In addition to the inherent immunity of binary switching, integrated circuits can be easily shielded with a very small amount of metal. Shielding PCB traces is basically unnecessary because of the relatively high currents such traces carry. Since I've sweated these details for space applications and EMP (that means nbomb) situations, I'm confident in my assessment.

The ugly truth (at least as far as scammers look at things) is that digital processing makes very high quality audio and video a relatively easy and cheap thing to accomplish these days from a hardware perspective, and nothing particularly fancy is required from software to take advantage of that. But software and support to enable ease-of-use for an incredibly diverse user environment is challenging!

In that light, GUIs, things that help with metadata and support are my key criteria in what applications I use, and while I use Foobar2000 for computer audio playback I gladly pay for applications that are the best for my needs, and why I gladly pay for dBpoweramp (love the GUI, metadata features and support) and JRiver (great audio and video for home theater in one package and great support). I am especially excited in the digital room correction direction that JRiver is exploring!

It's hard to remain angry for long with scammers when I can spend my time on better things like how to fiddle with my room acoustics, a calibrated mike, REW and the new JRiver convolver. Wait, maybe if I get that Tibetan bell.....

This post has been edited by godrick: Jan 24 2012, 02:23
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Porcus
post Jan 24 2012, 10:44
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Godrick: We are sort of digressing now, so let me be a bit brief not to ... derail (pardon the pun) the discussion too much. But although I essentially agree with the 'digital processing is easy' argument (and that the €99 digital mumbo-jumbo is based on nonsensicalities), playback is still analogue signal processing, and a 'digital' device which is electrically connected to a DAC, might interfere with the analogue part (which a DAC by definition has!) even though the digital signal is easily cleaned.

Just to stay brief: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....mp;#entry735838 , and the replies I got – that was a Dell off-the-shelf business line desktop.


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vrapp
post Jan 24 2012, 16:00
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QUOTE (hlloyge @ Jan 12 2012, 09:53) *
I'm interested, how a playback engine, which is, by definition, software, can get into CPU cache? OK, if it's small as CPU cache is (but then, which one, and on which CPU's?), but how can you load it directly to CPU cache? Or I misunderstood something? smile.gif


The idea is that as long as CPU executes this program, it will naturally try to keep it in the cache, because that's what the cache is for; since program's size is less than the cache's size, it will fit completely. So as long as the program runs, it will hopefully run 100% from CPU cache, which means that (1) CPU's access to various parts of program's code will be several times faster (2) RAM chips will be used less intensively, so they will last longer.

(I'm not saying that this is valid or makes any sense - just explaining the merit of the claim)

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Canar
post Jan 24 2012, 16:05
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Chances are pretty good that the program is going to be unloaded from the cache on the first context-switch, anyhow. Worrying about the cache in multi-threaded situations (ie. all modern operating systems) is asinine. That's a computer's job.


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Wombat
post Jan 24 2012, 19:37
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QUOTE (vrapp @ Jan 24 2012, 16:00) *
The idea is that as long as CPU executes this program, it will naturally try to keep it in the cache, because that's what the cache is for; since program's size is less than the cache's size, it will fit completely. So as long as the program runs, it will hopefully run 100% from CPU cache, which means that (1) CPU's access to various parts of program's code will be several times faster (2) RAM chips will be used less intensively, so they will last longer.

I already noticed in the discussion about TAS article 2 people were joining to enlighten us with explaning the theories behind such software or claims. There it was wav sounds worse as wav.
People that have a bit of knowledge follow the findings of such a vendor and get some fuzzy feeling after creating some self-praise in being able to follow the vendors logic. This gives some comfort and things must be better of cause.
This is exactly what these products try to do, seeding some simple logic that impresses the ones that know nothing and convince the ones that just know a bit smile.gif

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bug80
post Jan 25 2012, 14:08
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jozef, did you perform some testing yet? I am curious.
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josef
post Jan 25 2012, 21:58
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bug80: pls check your mail
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