IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
kraut
post Jan 12 2012, 05:05
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 227
Joined: 24-November 10
Member No.: 85965



http://jplay.eu/

QUOTE
JPLAY was built with only one goal in mind: optimal music reproduction. Its stripped-down, bare-bones playback engine fits completely inside CPU cache and can be used as stand-alone player or together with popular music management software:

JPLAY is the first audiophile player providing direct integration with JRiver Media center, foobar2000 and iTunes.

There is a GUI panel included for quick & easy adjustment of most important settings. This now makes JPLAY easier to use than ever and leverages hosts’ GUI with JPLAY’s Award-Winning audio playback technology.


Can someone explain of what the use a player within the foobar2000 player is?
It is better because:

QUOTE
jplay pre-loads complete playlist into RAM guaranteeing zero disk I/O during music reproduction.
Maximal Priority Scheduling
ultra low latency capabilities
Maximal Priority Scheduling Ensure uninterrupted flow of music data by running music playback at highest possible priority.
Hibernation Mode
multicore audio playback
Hibernation Mode Cancel OS ‘noise’ by eliminating dozens of OS jitter-inducing processes & hundreds of threads!
?

Is there any veracity to such claims? Knowing what little I know about computer audio (which is not all that much, despite having put together my own audio server with all the necessary hard and software) I really doubt there is any substance to the assertions. The only benefit I can see is to the developer charging something like 99$.....

This post has been edited by kraut: Jan 12 2012, 05:18
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
godrick
post Jan 19 2012, 03:41
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 334
Joined: 31-December 10
Member No.: 86948



Ooops! JimH, I did not mean to exclude you from what I (and no doubt many others) consider to be applications of the highest quiality that seem to be exploited by jplay. Glad to see you defending your IP. It appears the jplay splash page has been changed to remove logos, but replaced with text referencing Foobar2000 and JRiver, so both applications continue to be mocked and exploited.

Perhaps more substantially, there are several significant claims made on the jplay website claiming "integration" with Foobar2000 and JRiver and providing capabilities to overcome claimed deficiencies. To the extent use of any terms or claims are defined in any SDK or licensing terms (I'm not an attorney or software developer), I would find it very hard to believe that jplay would meet a reasonable standard for true integration given what it does and does not.

In thinking about trends, I think computer-based media mangement and playback will only increase, and I would expect others to also exploit the Foobar2000 and JRiver brands to make a fast buck in a manner that will hurt the Foobar2000 and JRiver brands. I hope both Foobar2000 and JRiver have or acquire the ability to claim meaningful control over components or plug-ins to your applications and retain the right to essentially ban crapware tie-ins. Again, I'm no attorney, but I've been involved in enough business disputes in the U.S. that involve IP that under certain conditions IP rights not defended can be lost, and I'd hate to see that happen to Foobar2000 or JRiver. From my experience, I'd look closely at leveraging the concept of "derivative works" in evaluating jplay and similar and your rights. I'm also aware of the risk that if those in your positions give too much attention to marginal operations like jplay you could inadvertently give crapware providers a boost, so a case-by-case decision process seems prudent.

This post has been edited by godrick: Jan 19 2012, 03:45
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
JimH
post Jan 19 2012, 17:32
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 149
Joined: 14-July 02
From: Minneapolis
Member No.: 2588



QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 18 2012, 20:41) *
Ooops! JimH, I did not mean to exclude you from what I (and no doubt many others) consider to be applications of the highest quiality that seem to be exploited by jplay. Glad to see you defending your IP. It appears the jplay splash page has been changed to remove logos, but replaced with text referencing Foobar2000 and JRiver, so both applications continue to be mocked and exploited.

Perhaps more substantially, there are several significant claims made on the jplay website claiming "integration" with Foobar2000 and JRiver and providing capabilities to overcome claimed deficiencies. To the extent use of any terms or claims are defined in any SDK or licensing terms (I'm not an attorney or software developer), I would find it very hard to believe that jplay would meet a reasonable standard for true integration given what it does and does not.

In thinking about trends, I think computer-based media mangement and playback will only increase, and I would expect others to also exploit the Foobar2000 and JRiver brands to make a fast buck in a manner that will hurt the Foobar2000 and JRiver brands. I hope both Foobar2000 and JRiver have or acquire the ability to claim meaningful control over components or plug-ins to your applications and retain the right to essentially ban crapware tie-ins. Again, I'm no attorney, but I've been involved in enough business disputes in the U.S. that involve IP that under certain conditions IP rights not defended can be lost, and I'd hate to see that happen to Foobar2000 or JRiver. From my experience, I'd look closely at leveraging the concept of "derivative works" in evaluating jplay and similar and your rights. I'm also aware of the risk that if those in your positions give too much attention to marginal operations like jplay you could inadvertently give crapware providers a boost, so a case-by-case decision process seems prudent.

In broad terms, I agree, and thanks for the kind words.

I'm concerned that jplay is claiming to "purify" an already pure bitstream. Either there is no change (but people hear one) or they are "enhancing" the sound (turning the volume up a little, for example).

I don't want to get in a public fight with them, but I'm not happy with the claims they are making. As someone here once said, if two players are playing to the same output, and neither is dropping the ball, the sound will be identical.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
josef
post Jan 22 2012, 17:06
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 22-January 12
Member No.: 96623



Hello everyone - I am the guy behind jplay, nice to meet you all!

This thread was recently brought to my attention: I see some passionate posts (always a good thing), some questions (great), some criticisms (unavoidable) and even some rather blatant accusations ('scam'? lol...)...

So perhaps you'd kindly allow me to address these one by one?
First let me address user 'mudlord':

Dear 'mudlord' (I'd rather address you by name but it's ok if you want to hide it) you keep claiming that jplay somehow 'violates' foobar sdk license. Now, I happen to have carefully studied sdk-license.txt before developing foobar plugin and, for the life of me, I just can't see what you are talking about...?

Plugin is, in fact, using only documented API functions (as required and as is only possible – I don’t have Foobar source code nor do I need it) and it most certainly does not use 'window procedure hooks that modify user interface behaviors' which is specifically prohibited.
All it does, in fact, is simply catch documented & official ‘play’ event and issue ‘pause’ command – how does that ‘violate’ license??? Furthermore, the playback code itself is not even in the plugin but in a completely separate, isolated process that has absolutely nothing to do with Foobar at all…

I guess the root of your confusion is that Foobar API does not, in fact, provide any functions that allow for replacement of its playback engine? I.e. While multiple ‘output plugins’ are available (WASAPI, KS, Null etc) there isn’t actually an API which would allow developers to write their own ‘output plugin’ as that API is undocumented. And that is precisely why we don’t have such a plugin (although it would be more elegant) as using undocumented code would, indeed, breach sdk license….

You may very well ask why don’t we just use ‘dsp plugin’ mechanism ‘like everyone else’?

Indeed - it’s a valid question but I hope you can see why we can’t use that approach: simply because we claim that music played via jplay sounds better!

Sure, you may say that is an ‘extraordinary’ claim and I can understand that it sounds ‘strange’ (to say the least, lol). If bits are untouched, that is, ‘bit-perfect’, just how in the world can they sound ‘better’ when played via software A as opposed to software B? Makes no sense, right?

In fact, I believe this forum specifically prohibits any discussion on sound quality so I hope you’ll understand why I will refrain from opening that topic? But I had to mention this claim as otherwise I would not be able to address your concerns:

Simply put, ‘Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof’: Well, you see, if we claim that software can influence sound quality then the only way to support (or, indeed, refute!) such ‘extraordinary’ claim is to let people play some music and judge for themselves!

And that, in a nutshell, is why we can’t use ‘dsp plugin’ approach: because we do NOT, I repeat, do NOT, modify music bits in any way! In other words, if we had a dsp plugin that simply passes same bits back to Foobar then THAT would be a scam indeed! smile.gif

But that’s not what we do and that’s why we HAVE TO stop Foobar playback…

Does this make plugin a bit ‘unusual’? Not really: such plugins have existed _for years_ on Mac (e.g. PureMusic, Amarra) – the fact that jplay is the first (and so far the only one) such plugin for Windows is indeed something new – But it’s not a new concept by a loooong shot….

And does it ‘violate’ sdk license? No freaking way….

JimH:

Dear Jim, I see you don’t want to get into ‘public fight’ – good! Personally, I don’t want to get into private fight either….

So let me try to respectfully address what you wrote above: You mention that we claim to ‘purify an already pure bitstream’.
Jim, we made no such silly claim – can you provide a link please?
I guess you must have confused us for someone else….I assume it’s an honest mistake as indeed I have heard such silly claims myself…

You also suggest that we are somehow ‘enhancing’ the sound by turning up volume or whatever…
Jim, we do no such thing: as mentioned above the bits are ‘left alone’ because that’s how I like them, thank you very much.

I digress: latest version does allow user to change volume in a bit-perfect way if hardware allows which is, btw, one of unique jplay features that you may be interested in adding to JRiver too….

So, please: suggesting that we are somehow ‘tricking’ data to fool the user when such ‘trickery’ can be easily tested is a bit, well, naïve?… Several devices allow for comparison of in & out bits: I’d expect you’d tested this before extending such not exactly flattering claims…
But ok, I guess you’re busy (aren’t we all) and were just exploring potential answers - hopefully now you got some? If not, I’ll be happy to elaborate…

Look, no wonder you (and others) are sceptical – Let me assure you, I was _extremely_ sceptical of this myself! I happen to have several decades of software development experience too (yes, I’m that old, lol): to me ‘bits are bits’ was as much a tautology before jplay (actually before XXHighEnd, to give credit where credit’s due) as it is to you now so I do know where you’re coming from and I sympathize…

All I say is listen for yourself: I trust you are intelligent enough to form your own opinion: I have no wish to convince you of anything – In fact, I don’t care if you don’t use it or don’t like it or don’t hear the difference at all – I even wouldn’t care if nobody bought it and I’d have to close website tomorrow: it’s not my day job, it’s just a passion…

So, what do you say: Are things a bit clearer now and can we have a civilized discussion and exchange arguments pro et contra in a respectful manner?
Or is it too late and lynching mentality has completely taken over this forum?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mudlord
post Jan 23 2012, 00:38
Post #5





Group: Developer (Donating)
Posts: 818
Joined: 1-December 07
Member No.: 49165



QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 10:06) *
Plugin is, in fact, using only documented API functions (as required and as is only possible – I don’t have Foobar source code nor do I need it) and it most certainly does not use 'window procedure hooks that modify user interface behaviors' which is specifically prohibited.
All it does, in fact, is simply catch documented & official ‘play’ event and issue ‘pause’ command – how does that ‘violate’ license??? Furthermore, the playback code itself is not even in the plugin but in a completely separate, isolated process that has absolutely nothing to do with Foobar at all…

I guess the root of your confusion is that Foobar API does not, in fact, provide any functions that allow for replacement of its playback engine? I.e. While multiple ‘output plugins’ are available (WASAPI, KS, Null etc) there isn’t actually an API which would allow developers to write their own ‘output plugin’ as that API is undocumented. And that is precisely why we don’t have such a plugin (although it would be more elegant) as using undocumented code would, indeed, breach sdk license….

You may very well ask why don’t we just use ‘dsp plugin’ mechanism ‘like everyone else’?

Indeed - it’s a valid question but I hope you can see why we can’t use that approach: simply because we claim that music played via jplay sounds better!


Oh of course! But I do think breaking seeking and visualizations is enough to cause violations of the license, since you use a completely seperate process to output audio, which violates FB2K's method of operation, since you are meant to ONLY use the interfaces offered. But then since you use pipes, I guess thats justifiable, right? Of course, for sound quality!

QUOTE
And that, in a nutshell, is why we can’t use ‘dsp plugin’ approach: because we do NOT, I repeat, do NOT, modify music bits in any way! In other words, if we had a dsp plugin that simply passes same bits back to Foobar then THAT would be a scam indeed!

But that’s not what we do and that’s why we HAVE TO stop Foobar playback…


And completely subvert input decoding for those formats EXCEPT on conversion. Because we can't trust FB2K's libflac based decoder, right?

Alas: I must agree with what the mods here said: its ABX test results or die here. Here its about science and objective data, not all claims about "musicality" which I heard before from my own products (which I then directed the end user to do ABX tests, as I do have some shred of honesty).

This post has been edited by mudlord: Jan 23 2012, 00:57
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- kraut   Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!   Jan 12 2012, 05:05
- - chiwou   well I installed the trial and it didn't work,...   Jan 12 2012, 06:27
|- - tpijag   QUOTE (chiwou @ Jan 11 2012, 23:27) well ...   Jan 12 2012, 16:48
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (tpijag @ Jan 12 2012, 09:48) QUOTE...   Jan 16 2012, 07:02
- - carpman   This should give you some idea of the target audie...   Jan 12 2012, 07:54
- - shakey_snake   Tweako audiophiles (the type that HA's ToS #8 ...   Jan 12 2012, 07:55
- - kraut   QUOTE unfortunately believe that anything that is ...   Jan 12 2012, 08:02
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 12 2012, 02:02) QUOTE ...   Jan 12 2012, 17:11
- - hlloyge   I'm interested, how a playback engine, which i...   Jan 12 2012, 09:53
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Jan 12 2012, 03:53) I...   Jan 12 2012, 14:55
||- - hlloyge   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 12 2012, 15...   Jan 16 2012, 15:01
|- - vrapp   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Jan 12 2012, 09:53) I...   Jan 24 2012, 16:00
- - Carledwards   Snake oil for those whose disposable income far ex...   Jan 12 2012, 10:00
- - Porcus   QUOTE jplay pre-loads complete playlist into RAM g...   Jan 12 2012, 12:29
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jan 12 2012, 13:29) In th...   Jan 12 2012, 12:48
- - ramicio   This jitter hype is getting ridiculous. The only ...   Jan 12 2012, 14:49
- - kraut   QUOTE For its size, at 256K, compared to other pro...   Jan 16 2012, 17:31
- - JimH   Is this based on ABX testing?   Jan 17 2012, 00:39
- - godrick   Jplay looks like it may be largely vaporware based...   Jan 17 2012, 02:18
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 16 2012, 20:18) Jpla...   Jan 17 2012, 02:49
- - godrick   I also wonder how they gained permission to use Fo...   Jan 17 2012, 06:45
|- - JimH   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 16 2012, 23:45) I al...   Jan 18 2012, 22:01
- - Canar   That isn't even a proper foobar2000 logo. That...   Jan 18 2012, 22:24
- - godrick   Ooops! JimH, I did not mean to exclude you fr...   Jan 19 2012, 03:41
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 18 2012, 20:41) Perh...   Jan 19 2012, 08:48
|- - JimH   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 18 2012, 20:41) Ooop...   Jan 19 2012, 17:32
|- - josef   Hello everyone - I am the guy behind jplay, nice t...   Jan 22 2012, 17:06
|- - db1989   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 16:06) Indeed...   Jan 22 2012, 17:21
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 17:06) we cla...   Jan 22 2012, 18:47
||- - josef   Db1989 – Why such aggressive, condescending ...   Jan 22 2012, 20:06
||- - db1989   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 19:06) Db1989...   Jan 22 2012, 20:28
|||- - josef   ok - i see you really don't want to try it you...   Jan 22 2012, 21:02
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 20:06) Not su...   Jan 22 2012, 23:30
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 10:06) Plugin...   Jan 23 2012, 00:38
- - JJZolx   So how does it work, then? You use fb2k's user...   Jan 19 2012, 09:39
- - mudlord   All audio in FB2K is meant to be outputed to its o...   Jan 19 2012, 09:45
- - JJZolx   "Meant to be"?   Jan 19 2012, 09:49
- - mudlord   Yes, all audio passes from the input decoder servi...   Jan 19 2012, 09:51
- - JJZolx   I'm not endorsing anything, but I don't se...   Jan 19 2012, 09:57
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (JJZolx @ Jan 19 2012, 02:57) I...   Jan 19 2012, 09:59
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (JJZolx @ Jan 19 2012, 02:57) I...   Jan 19 2012, 10:27
- - JJZolx   There are a number of similar programs that exist ...   Jan 19 2012, 10:12
|- - godrick   QUOTE (JJZolx @ Jan 19 2012, 11:12) There...   Jan 19 2012, 15:13
- - kraut   QUOTE Or are you suggesting that hundreds of peopl...   Jan 22 2012, 21:22
|- - josef   Kraut: Sorry but you seem to be missing the point:...   Jan 22 2012, 22:35
||- - josef   Michaelw: I assure you I am not a troll am indeed ...   Jan 22 2012, 22:44
||- - bug80   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 22:44) Bug80:...   Jan 22 2012, 22:51
|- - db1989   QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 22 2012, 20:22) As [jo...   Jan 22 2012, 23:17
- - tpijag   QUOTE but now please help me i am really curious (...   Jan 22 2012, 21:50
- - bug80   Josef, you seem like a decent person. I am sure th...   Jan 22 2012, 21:57
- - kraut   QUOTE By the way, the fact that people suffer from...   Jan 22 2012, 22:09
- - MichaelW   @josef I'm not sure if you're a troll, or...   Jan 22 2012, 22:15
|- - JJZolx   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jan 22 2012, 14:15) The...   Jan 22 2012, 22:42
|- - MichaelW   QUOTE (JJZolx @ Jan 23 2012, 10:42) QUOTE...   Jan 23 2012, 02:35
- - tpijag   QUOTE But ok, ‘measurements’: What wou...   Jan 22 2012, 22:44
- - kraut   QUOTE But ok, ‘measurements’: What would you say i...   Jan 22 2012, 22:59
- - Brand   I was just in the middle of RMAA testing my soundc...   Jan 22 2012, 23:04
- - kraut   QUOTE Looking at the actual numbers it seems like ...   Jan 22 2012, 23:12
|- - josef   Kraut: > please supply sources. Sure - here’s ...   Jan 22 2012, 23:17
||- - probedb   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 22:17) Kraut:...   Jan 22 2012, 23:31
||- - kraut   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 15:17) Kraut:...   Jan 22 2012, 23:36
|- - Brand   QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 22 2012, 23:12) QUOTE ...   Jan 22 2012, 23:34
- - Brand   I now cut the A and B samples I posted before and ...   Jan 23 2012, 00:03
|- - josef   Probedb: perhaps you missed this – I am no ...   Jan 23 2012, 00:08
|- - Ouroboros   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 23:08) and it...   Jan 23 2012, 00:17
|- - Emon   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 18:08) I am j...   Jan 23 2012, 08:33
||- - db1989   QUOTE (Emon @ Jan 23 2012, 07:33) QUOTE (...   Jan 23 2012, 13:50
|- - probedb   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 22 2012, 23:08) Probed...   Jan 23 2012, 09:44
- - kraut   QUOTE As you can see they cancel out pretty nicely...   Jan 23 2012, 01:00
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 22 2012, 19:00) anyhow...   Jan 23 2012, 01:03
- - kraut   I took the graphical display of the measurements, ...   Jan 23 2012, 01:18
|- - josef   Ouroboros: perhaps you think it’s so simple but fo...   Jan 23 2012, 01:33
|- - db1989   QUOTE (josef @ Jan 23 2012, 00:33) Ourobo...   Jan 23 2012, 01:48
- - godrick   The only impact of the posts today is that instead...   Jan 23 2012, 01:33
- - Canar   Typical con-man behaviour: when confronted with ca...   Jan 23 2012, 01:59
- - Brand   QUOTE (Brand @ Jan 22 2012, 23:34) The bi...   Jan 23 2012, 02:32
- - krabapple   Harman is the most famous commercial of DBTs in th...   Jan 23 2012, 03:32
- - krabapple   Josef, I went to the Russian site you linked to. ...   Jan 23 2012, 03:36
- - bug80   It seems thar everyone missed the fact that jozef ...   Jan 23 2012, 07:25
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (bug80 @ Jan 23 2012, 07:25) It see...   Jan 23 2012, 11:10
|- - godrick   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 23 2012, 12:10) QUOT...   Jan 23 2012, 15:31
- - dhromed   Software homeopathy.   Jan 23 2012, 10:36
- - bug80   josef, you asked for specifics regarding the ABX t...   Jan 23 2012, 11:16
- - spoon   Lets just put some perspective on all this talk of...   Jan 23 2012, 12:59
- - spoon   If people are so concerned about jitter and buffer...   Jan 23 2012, 13:07
|- - JimH   QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 23 2012, 06:07) If peo...   Jan 23 2012, 18:15
|- - JJZolx   QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 23 2012, 05:07) If peo...   Jan 23 2012, 21:23
- - kraut   I see that the dbpa developer is participating. Co...   Jan 23 2012, 17:22
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 23 2012, 17:22) I see ...   Jan 23 2012, 19:58
- - Gecko   While I wholeheartedly agree with spoon and JimH, ...   Jan 23 2012, 19:45
- - Canar   While we're busy implying unproven things like...   Jan 23 2012, 22:03
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Canar @ Jan 23 2012, 22:03) SPDIF-...   Jan 23 2012, 22:18
|- - godrick   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jan 23 2012, 22:18) QUOTE...   Jan 24 2012, 02:22
- - MichaelW   As I understand it, the claim for Jplay, and simil...   Jan 23 2012, 22:13
- - spoon   External DACs can also employ electrical isolation...   Jan 23 2012, 22:21
- - Porcus   Godrick: We are sort of digressing now, so let me ...   Jan 24 2012, 10:44
- - Canar   Chances are pretty good that the program is going ...   Jan 24 2012, 16:05
- - Wombat   QUOTE (vrapp @ Jan 24 2012, 16:00) The id...   Jan 24 2012, 19:37
- - bug80   jozef, did you perform some testing yet? I am curi...   Jan 25 2012, 14:08
- - josef   bug80: pls check your mail   Jan 25 2012, 21:58
5 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 


Reply to this topicStart new topic
2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th December 2014 - 18:00