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Violinists cannot differentiate between Stradivarius and new violins, was: "golden ears"
kraut
post Jan 3 2012, 07:03
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not so golden after all:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocke...s-and-new-ones/

QUOTE
What’s more, no one has tested whether violinists themselves can truly pick up the supposedly distinctive sound of a Strad. The common wisdom is that they can, but Fritz and Curtin showed that this isn’t true. “Many people were convinced that as soon as you play an old violin, you can feel that it’s old, it’s been played a lot, and it has a special sound quality,” says Fritz. “People who took part in the experiment said it was the experience of a lifetime when we told them the results. They were fully convinced they could tell the difference, and they couldn’t.”


Having read the article first in the German "der spiegel", I do not have to wait for the usual excuse of those that will maintain those listening tests were done wrong, the wrong violins were chosen etc.etc., all the usual bull those of the golden ear persuasion come up with to not have to accept test results that speak counter to their religion that "everything influences sound and everything is audible".

QUOTE
The test was a true “double-blind” one, as neither the players nor the people who gave them the violins had any way of knowing which instrument was which. The room was dimly lit. The players were wearing goggles so they couldn’t see properly. The instruments had dabs of perfume on the chinrests that blocked out any distinctive smells. And even though Fritz and Curtin knew which the identities of the six violins, they only passed the instruments to the players via other researchers, who were hidden by screens, wearing their own goggles, and quite literally in the dark.


It seems to me reading through the article, that just about everything had been done to eliminate bias by double blind testing.

QUOTE
There are some issues with the study. Curtin, being a maker of new violins, has an obvious bias, but the double-blind design should have prevented that from affecting the results. The sample size – six violins and 21 players – is fairly small, but as large as can be expected when dealing with rare and incredibly expensive objects. There might also other variables that could affect the players’ perceptions – perhaps, for example, they might feel differently in rooms with different acoustics.


This post has been edited by kraut: Jan 3 2012, 07:08
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kraut
post Jan 4 2012, 02:00
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QUOTE
I'd noticed that thread had originally been inappropriately entitled "golden ears" (yawn)
.

I don't give a flying fuck about your yawning - a sign of ennui precipitated by ignorance, not taking into consideration that previous tests, including measurements, were done to disprove the notion of either superiority or difference.

QUOTE
However, the many blind tests from 1817[8][9] to the present (as of 2006) have never found any difference in sound between Stradivari's violins and high-quality violins in comparable style of other makers and periods, nor has acoustic analysis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius

The term golden ear stands because despite since the 1800's accumulated evidence including this newest one that points to inaudibility of differences, there are still those who maintain differences are audible; justifiably then inviting comparisons between the audiophools of all couleur.
That has nothing to do with the participants at all - again, reading comprehension seems to be an issue - but with those that defend their indefensible stance contrary to evidence commenting about those tests.

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Takla
post Jan 4 2012, 02:11
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QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 4 2012, 01:00) *
I don't give a flying fuck about your yawning......

The term golden ear stands because .... but with those that defend their indefensible stance contrary to evidence commenting about those tests.


That's nice, and well done on the aerobatics. But the test wasn't about people making unreasonable claims and refusing to see reason or accept surprising results. It described people who were willing to submit their ideas and opinions to empirical analysis, and who met the results with good grace and good sense.

As well as the thread title being misleading and non-descriptive, your very first post went so far as to strongly oppose and castigate people who were not even in evidence and opinions which had even not been expressed, but you decided to assume that these wicked people with their bad opinions would inevitably arrive and start doing all kinds of things which, in fact, didn't happen:
QUOTE
Having read the article first in the German "der spiegel", I do not have to wait for the usual excuse of those that will maintain those listening tests were done wrong, the wrong violins were chosen etc.etc., all the usual bull those of the golden ear persuasion come up with to not have to accept test results that speak counter to their religion that "everything influences sound and everything is audible".


You do not have to wait for someone to exist or an excuse to be made before you start arguing with these (unmanifested) people and dismissing their (imaginary) excuses. This truly is the age of reason. Happy flying!


Edit: and the more I think about it the more I wonder how anyone can get angry on seeing such a well conducted and rational test! It involves people who are the best instrument makers, and people who are among the elite of performers, people who are immersed in the tradition and culture of these instruments which are virtually held sacred. And the result? They all seem to agree that the modern instruments costing a mere $30000 are a match for the legends of the past costing millions. What the hell has this to do with "golden ears" or audiophools and why would it be reported here in terms of frustration, or cause people to express their hostility to "the enemy", when it is clearly an episode which show the triumph of the rational!?

This post has been edited by Takla: Jan 4 2012, 02:20
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andy o
post Jan 4 2012, 04:18
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QUOTE (Takla @ Jan 3 2012, 17:11) *
But the test wasn't about people making unreasonable claims and refusing to see reason or accept surprising results.
Sure it was. That's why the prefacing bits about others trying in vain to distinguish the sound, through history.

QUOTE
It described people who were willing to submit their ideas and opinions to empirical analysis, and who met the results with good grace and good sense.
No study like this is about the individuals themselves. That's why sample size was a "problem". Do you think the scientists would have asked for, and the owners of the instruments would have lent, those expensive instruments just to see what those 21 people could hear?
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Posts in this topic
- kraut   Violinists cannot differentiate between Stradivarius and new violins   Jan 3 2012, 07:03
- - hlloyge   Thank you for interesting read - I was, too, for s...   Jan 3 2012, 07:57
- - hawkeye_p   QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 3 2012, 08:03) Having ...   Jan 3 2012, 09:08
- - botface   Am I missing something here? As I read it the test...   Jan 3 2012, 13:17
- - dhromed   Did you expect a grand finale where the violinists...   Jan 3 2012, 13:36
|- - db1989   QUOTE (dhromed @ Jan 3 2012, 12:36) Did y...   Jan 3 2012, 15:25
- - kraut   QUOTE As I read it the test shows that 21 violinis...   Jan 3 2012, 15:15
|- - botface   QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 3 2012, 15:15) QUOTE A...   Jan 3 2012, 16:33
|- - Gumboot   I seem to be having some pretty serious reading co...   Jan 5 2012, 12:10
- - Porcus   Next task: Make the new violins look old, so peopl...   Jan 3 2012, 15:25
- - Takla   I think it's worth noting that the modern inst...   Jan 3 2012, 17:57
|- - Jebus   QUOTE (Takla @ Jan 3 2012, 09:57) I think...   Jan 3 2012, 19:22
|- - Takla   QUOTE (Jebus @ Jan 3 2012, 18:22) Yes, an...   Jan 3 2012, 20:28
- - bred   I've never heard a Stradivarius. But the soun...   Jan 3 2012, 18:55
- - zipr   Here's another story on it, which includes aud...   Jan 3 2012, 19:14
- - Carledwards   The biggest factor in how violins sound is who is ...   Jan 3 2012, 20:08
- - bred   QUOTE (zipr @ Jan 3 2012, 19:14) Here...   Jan 3 2012, 21:34
- - andy o   The reasonable assumption is that the instrument t...   Jan 3 2012, 21:51
- - MichaelW   This test is another piece of evidence that there ...   Jan 3 2012, 22:39
- - Takla   I didn't see any evidence that there isn't...   Jan 4 2012, 00:00
|- - MichaelW   I quite agree, Takla. I thought that was what I wa...   Jan 4 2012, 00:41
|- - Takla   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jan 3 2012, 23:41) I qu...   Jan 4 2012, 01:13
- - kraut   QUOTE I'd noticed that thread had originally b...   Jan 4 2012, 02:00
|- - Takla   QUOTE (kraut @ Jan 4 2012, 01:00) I don...   Jan 4 2012, 02:11
|- - andy o   QUOTE (Takla @ Jan 3 2012, 17:11) But the...   Jan 4 2012, 04:18
|- - MichaelW   QUOTE (andy o @ Jan 4 2012, 16:18) QUOTE ...   Jan 4 2012, 08:06
- - kawaiigardiner   QUOTE (zipr @ Jan 4 2012, 07:14) Here...   Jan 4 2012, 07:11
- - DonP   So in the study were the new instruments brand new...   Jan 4 2012, 15:25
- - MichaelW   IIRC one was three days old.   Jan 4 2012, 17:50
- - MichaelW   @gumboot, I'd been wondering about that, too. ...   Jan 5 2012, 15:55
- - MichaelW   One reason why this test, and the few others like ...   Jan 7 2012, 02:27
|- - Gumboot   I think the test, or the write-up cited, fails bec...   Jan 7 2012, 11:46
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jan 7 2012, 03:27) Plac...   Jan 7 2012, 13:03
- - Porcus   More references at http://www.sciencedaily.com/rel...   Jan 7 2012, 15:36
- - godrick   Has anyone posting here actually read the study it...   Jan 8 2012, 22:23
|- - Gumboot   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 8 2012, 21:23) but s...   Jan 9 2012, 00:45
|- - andy o   QUOTE (Gumboot @ Jan 8 2012, 15:45) QUOTE...   Jan 9 2012, 05:54
|- - Gumboot   QUOTE (andy o @ Jan 9 2012, 04:54) Well t...   Jan 9 2012, 08:18
|- - Nessuno   A hopefully interesting contribution to this threa...   Jan 10 2012, 22:27
- - godrick   We seem to be caught in a certain cycle.... http:...   Jan 9 2012, 03:45
- - godrick   ...so Zimmerman's implication is that the test...   Jan 10 2012, 23:09
|- - Gumboot   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 10 2012, 22:09) ...s...   Jan 10 2012, 23:46
|- - Takla   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 10 2012, 22:09) ...s...   Jan 11 2012, 00:42
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Takla @ Jan 11 2012, 00:42) Why ca...   Jan 11 2012, 01:20
|- - DVDdoug   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jan 10 2012, 16:20) Becau...   Jan 11 2012, 01:46
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jan 11 2012, 01:46) QUOT...   Jan 11 2012, 02:11
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jan 11 2012, 13:46) I do...   Jan 11 2012, 02:11
|- - Takla   QUOTE (Porcus @ Jan 11 2012, 00:20) QUOTE...   Jan 11 2012, 02:30
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Takla @ Jan 11 2012, 02:30) When p...   Jan 11 2012, 02:58
|- - mzil   QUOTE (Takla @ Jan 11 2012, 00:42) I did ...   Jan 11 2012, 03:35
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (mzil @ Jan 11 2012, 03:35) QUOTE (...   Jan 11 2012, 09:07
||- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (mzil @ Jan 11 2012, 04:35) Do you ...   Jan 11 2012, 09:14
|||- - Porcus   QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Jan 11 2012, 09:1...   Jan 11 2012, 17:06
||- - Gumboot   It's how they make their money, isn't it. ...   Jan 11 2012, 09:17
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (Gumboot @ Jan 11 2012, 09:17) It...   Jan 11 2012, 10:43
||- - andy o   QUOTE (Gumboot @ Jan 11 2012, 00:17) It...   Jan 11 2012, 17:25
|- - godrick   QUOTE (Takla @ Jan 11 2012, 03:30) I did ...   Jan 11 2012, 15:31
|- - Takla   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 11 2012, 14:31) I do...   Jan 11 2012, 15:53
- - andy o   The evidence contradicts Zimmerman, no matter how ...   Jan 11 2012, 00:40
- - andy o   And he was being kind of a condescending dick to h...   Jan 11 2012, 00:47
- - godrick   I am a bit surprised anyone took exception to my p...   Jan 11 2012, 15:26
|- - Gumboot   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 11 2012, 14:26) Zimm...   Jan 11 2012, 23:03
- - mzil   Takla, I'm still curious to hear from you dire...   Jan 11 2012, 16:45
|- - Takla   QUOTE (mzil @ Jan 11 2012, 15:45) Takla, ...   Jan 11 2012, 22:23
- - mzil   ^Oh, OK. Thanks. I had hoped you might be able to...   Jan 11 2012, 22:56
- - db1989   Totally legitimate analogy, A+++, would read again...   Jan 11 2012, 23:08
|- - Gumboot   QUOTE (db1989 @ Jan 11 2012, 22:08) Total...   Jan 11 2012, 23:14
|- - Takla   QUOTE (Gumboot @ Jan 11 2012, 22:14) Is t...   Jan 11 2012, 23:48
- - godrick   Takla, you continue to miss my point, so I take it...   Jan 12 2012, 05:07
|- - Gumboot   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 12 2012, 04:07) I am...   Jan 12 2012, 09:14
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 12 2012, 05:07) I am...   Jan 12 2012, 19:44
- - godrick   So once one learns how to play on a certain instru...   Jan 12 2012, 18:09
|- - botface   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 12 2012, 18:09) This...   Jan 12 2012, 19:39
|- - Gumboot   QUOTE (godrick @ Jan 12 2012, 17:09) So o...   Jan 12 2012, 22:39
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Gumboot @ Jan 12 2012, 21:39) QUOT...   Jan 12 2012, 22:57
|- - Gumboot   QUOTE (db1989 @ Jan 12 2012, 21:57) Are y...   Jan 12 2012, 23:10
- - db1989   My bad—I’m tired too many words hurt poor brain.   Jan 12 2012, 23:19
- - knutinh   If it takes one year of practice to appreciate the...   May 16 2012, 11:09
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (knutinh @ May 16 2012, 06:09) If i...   May 16 2012, 13:14
||- - knutinh   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 16 2012, 14...   May 18 2012, 10:58
|- - DonP   QUOTE (knutinh @ May 16 2012, 06:09) If i...   May 16 2012, 14:33
|- - DVDdoug   QUOTE (DonP @ May 16 2012, 06:33) Do Stra...   May 17 2012, 21:34
||- - DonP   QUOTE (DVDdoug @ May 17 2012, 16:34) You ...   May 18 2012, 03:10
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (DonP @ May 16 2012, 15:33) Do Stra...   May 18 2012, 10:27
- - Porcus   Well, if violinists cannot identify the Stradivari...   May 25 2012, 16:22
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Porcus @ May 25 2012, 16:22) Well,...   Nov 19 2012, 16:58
- - mzil   ^That was interesting. --- To all: See if you can...   May 25 2012, 17:51


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