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Sansa Fuze vs Ipod Touch 4th Generation for Sound Quality only, Moved from General Audio (TOS #6)
samd1885
post Dec 30 2011, 21:32
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Hey, I am hoping that someone has tried both and has an honest opinion. I have christmas money and wish to buy an MP3 player, I was wandering which is better, the Sansa Fuze or the Ipod Touch. I only really care about sound quality and any opinions however slight about audio quality would really help. I really don't want any price value opinions though as I want an honest opinion about only sound quality. Thank you! The stock headphones don't matter, I have sennheiser cx 300 ii's and hd 485's. I will put lossless or high bit rate audio on it. Thank you, all help much appreiciated,

Sam. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
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saratoga
post Dec 30 2011, 21:38
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QUOTE (samd1885 @ Dec 30 2011, 15:32) *
Hey, I am hoping that someone has tried both and has an honest opinion. I have christmas money and wish to buy an MP3 player, I was wandering which is better, the Sansa Fuze or the Ipod Touch. I only really care about sound quality and any opinions however slight about audio quality would really help.


Both are generally transparent when driving all but very exotic headphones.
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samd1885
post Dec 30 2011, 22:54
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What about through a decent hi fi system? I have an 800 hifi system that I might use it on sometimes, my headphones are 80 sennheisers, would I notice a difference with these do you think? Thanks a lot for your help smile.gif

Anyone else have any opinions, much appreciated smile.gif
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greynol
post Dec 30 2011, 23:04
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Hi and welcome to Hydrogenaudio.

In case you haven't taken the opportunity, it is expected that all members read, understand and explicitly follow our Terms of Service. I mention this because the question you are asking falls directly under the purview of rule #8.

Unless someone can demonstrate an audible difference through means acceptable by this forum, it is to be assumed that they sound identical.

It is sometimes suggested that if differences are expressed only as opinions, often qualified by things like YMMV, then they are somehow acceptable and immune to TOS #8. This is absolutely not the case.


This post has been edited by greynol: Dec 30 2011, 23:04


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samd1885
post Dec 30 2011, 23:07
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QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 30 2011, 22:04) *
Hi and welcome to Hydrogenaudio.

In case you haven't taken the opportunity, it is expected that all members read, understand and explicitly follow our Terms of Service. I mention this because the question you are asking falls directly under the purview of rule #8.

Unless someone can demonstrate an audible difference through means acceptable by this forum, it is to be assumed that they sound identical.

It is sometimes suggested that if differences are expressed only as opinions, often qualified by things like YMMV, then they are somehow acceptable and immune to TOS #8. This is absolutely not the case.


Sorry, It doesn't have to be merely based around opinion. Hardware differences in the sound card that produce more clear higher frequencies due to its architectural structure are equally what I wanted. I just felt that everything is based around opinion in the end.
Yours Sincerely,
Sam.
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greynol
post Dec 30 2011, 23:16
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I would hope they aren't based around opinion. wink.gif

Please allow me to rephrase. One cannot express differences as opinions in order to get around TOS #8. This is just a somewhat common excuse that is given. To put it more concretely, there really isn't anything that allows one to skirt TOS #8.

If you wish to claim audible differences then you must provide objective evidence.


This post has been edited by greynol: Dec 30 2011, 23:21


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samd1885
post Dec 30 2011, 23:20
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QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 30 2011, 22:16) *
Perhaps I wasn't clear. One cannot express differences as opinions in order to get around TOS #8. To put it more succinctly, there really isn't anything that allows one to skirt TOS #8.

If you wish to claim audible differences then you must provide objective evidence.


Ok, sorry, I interpreted the rule to mean that all those who put forward a statement about sound quality must back it up with evidence. However, I did not state either way, and thus, expected that it was the rule that applied to those who replied with an opinion. Because I personally didn't state a view, then I felt I did not need evidence, as I didn't make a statement about it. What should I do now then?
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greynol
post Dec 30 2011, 23:26
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You did nothing to break the rule, rather it was directed at those who might consider replying.

It was also mentioned so that you may understand that people aren't allowed to present information that isn't also supported through objective means.

My bad for using the word "you" in my last response.

This post has been edited by greynol: Dec 30 2011, 23:28


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samd1885
post Dec 30 2011, 23:28
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Ah, ok, I am so sorry, I guess there is little chance of reply then if it has to be supported by objective means. The demographic has to be rather small then narrow it down to this forum... Haha, sorry to waste your time.
Sam.
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greynol
post Dec 30 2011, 23:32
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People often provide frequency plots and other graphical data for hardware to help indicate if someone might hear differences, which is OK so long as this isn't provided as evidence that people do hear differences. TOS #8 explicitly states that graphs are inadmissible, but this was more directed towards lossy codec development than hardware.


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saratoga
post Dec 30 2011, 23:39
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QUOTE (samd1885 @ Dec 30 2011, 16:54) *
What about through a decent hi fi system? I have an 800 hifi system that I might use it on sometimes, my headphones are 80 sennheisers, would I notice a difference with these do you think? Thanks a lot for your help smile.gif


I can't really tell you what you'll perceive, but given that both of these devices have pretty close to 16 bit limited SNR and a uniform frequency response, I consider it unlikely. That said, you can read a very detailed comparison of the theoretical differences between a Clip+ and Touch here:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/sansa-clip-measured.html

The Clip+ and Fuze (v2) use identical internal hardware aside from the screen. I consider the screen unlikely to change the audio, but something to keep in mind.

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samd1885
post Dec 31 2011, 01:06
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That's amazing, thank you. What you presented there was a fascinating read that has made my decision. I am going for the fuze, it has better statistics in that document and seems to be a great player. Thank you so much!

This post has been edited by db1989: Dec 31 2011, 11:31
Reason for edit: removing unnecessary full quote
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saratoga
post Dec 31 2011, 01:20
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QUOTE (samd1885 @ Dec 30 2011, 19:06) *
What you presented there was a fascinating read that has made my decision. I am going for the fuze, it has better statistics in that document and seems to be a great player.


I think the most reasonable conclusion from that link would be that both players are so good there is little difference between them.
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samd1885
post Dec 31 2011, 01:53
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I don't know, I feel that making a conclusion from there that the clip+ is better in terms of audio quality in the sense of interpretation/ perception is rather valid due to the nature of the points that the clip wins on and vice versa with the touch. (Based on his conclusion/ summary and then interpreted the results from that)

This post has been edited by db1989: Dec 31 2011, 11:31
Reason for edit: as above
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MichaelW
post Dec 31 2011, 03:50
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 31 2011, 11:39) *
The Clip+ and Fuze (v2) use identical internal hardware aside from the screen. I consider the screen unlikely to change the audio, but something to keep in mind.


Just in passing, I seem to remember that in the early days of the iPod Touch people did hear noise that was attributable to the screen--so it's certainly unlikely that a different screen would have an effect, but not impossible.
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andy o
post Dec 31 2011, 04:17
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I have an iPod Touch 4, and no noise whatsoever. It's a great player, and in fact I would consider these two players totally different categories. For one, the Touch is more expensive, and is a mini computer in on itself. Which means more updates and different ways to play music. For instance, for the car I use FlickTunes, which is a front-end for the music app which lets you control it with gestures. Also, Airplay and 3rd party iPod USB/dock support might be an advantage. Like I said in another thread, I was also surprised pleasantly with the iOS update which fixed the Sound Check availability on the USB Direct output. OTOH, the inbuilt music app sucks horribly (for ex. no good landscape mode or hardware buttons).

Maybe compare it to one of the Samsung Galaxy players? In that case, hardware-wise the Samsungs are more feature rich, but you can't compete with the ground Apple has already gained all these years with features like iPod control/connections and 3rd party hardware, or Airplay, for example.

I have also an Android phone, and I use the Touch exclusively for music and video, and the Android phone for phone and google stuff, but bear in mind that my phone is one of the less powerful ones.
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saratoga
post Dec 31 2011, 05:01
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QUOTE (samd1885 @ Dec 30 2011, 19:53) *
I don't know, I feel that making a conclusion from there that the clip+ is better in terms of audio quality in the sense of interpretation/ perception is rather valid


We have TOS#8 is to remind people that this is not true:

QUOTE
Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.


If you want to talk about perception, you have to actually test perception. The reason no one bothers to do such tests is that a quick look at those results would tell you that the output is essentially identical, and thus you'd have to be crazy to expect to hear a difference smile.gif

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kritip
post Dec 31 2011, 05:05
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The clip+ does suffer in terms of noise during disk access or CPU with both normal or rockbox firmwares. I have now got used to it, but the effect is still there.
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samd1885
post Dec 31 2011, 11:34
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QUOTE (kritip @ Dec 31 2011, 04:05) *
The clip+ does suffer in terms of noise during disk access or CPU with both normal or rockbox firmwares. I have now got used to it, but the effect is still there.


To what level does it suffer from noise? Is it only at low volume levels that it is there or is it there all the time because I have heard that the audio can hiss at low volumes in these players, I am not sure if it's true though.
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johnb
post Dec 31 2011, 14:22
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QUOTE (kritip @ Dec 31 2011, 05:05) *
The clip+ does suffer in terms of noise during disk access or CPU with both normal or rockbox firmwares. I have now got used to it, but the effect is still there.


But to my knowledge only with certain hardware revisions. I haven't noticed any problem, whereas a colleague, who bought a brand new one on Amazon, hears it.
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samd1885
post Dec 31 2011, 14:37
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QUOTE (johnb @ Dec 31 2011, 13:22) *
QUOTE (kritip @ Dec 31 2011, 05:05) *
The clip+ does suffer in terms of noise during disk access or CPU with both normal or rockbox firmwares. I have now got used to it, but the effect is still there.


But to my knowledge only with certain hardware revisions. I haven't noticed any problem, whereas a colleague, who bought a brand new one on Amazon, hears it.


Ah, ok, I am looking at the fuze V2, I wander if that will have it. I hope that it can't be heard when playing through my hifi, that would be annoying.
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Takla
post Dec 31 2011, 15:43
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QUOTE (johnb @ Dec 31 2011, 13:22) *
But to my knowledge only with certain hardware revisions. I haven't noticed any problem, whereas a colleague, who bought a brand new one on Amazon, hears it.


I've not seen any hard information that shows the noise issues are associated with any particular hardware version/revision. It might just be the result of QA in component sourcing and assembly, not related to specific versions. I don't know. Even if it could be directly associated with specific versions there is no way as a purchaser (or retailer) to make any distinction.

I bought my Clip+ from Amazon UK just over a year ago and it has obvious noise issues. Previously I had a Fuze v2, bought from Amazon UK in 2009, and that had some noise but it was barely noticeable. These are CPU or memory access noises, not a background hiss. Clip+ and Fuze have no hiss or hum during playback, but they can have an array of buzzes, pops, squeaks and crackles on pause, resume, volume change and, if eq is used in Rockbox, a good loud click on track changes too. If you were to somehow abx these players or compare frequency response and distortion data there's no reason you'd ever notice these problems because most tests and testers don't seem to be looking for them; the audio playback is essentially beyond criticism in those terms and under any normal test procedure. But you might find those impressive test results and reports were the result of measuring everything except the players' most obvious imperfection. Apparently there are also many Clip+ players which don't exhibit any kind of noise problems so it's pot luck.

On the basis that if I broke/lost my 8GB Clip+ it would cost 30 to replace it while an iPod Video used, or a Classic new, would cost between 5 and 7 times that amount, I'd spend the 30. Personally I'd prefer the Clip+ over the Fuze because the wheel controller on the Fuze is very prone to wear and/or damage, at which point it may become unuseable, or at least very annoying to use, and also it's much too easy on the Fuze to have the microSD card pop out of the slot without you noticing; try finding one of those outdoors in the street, on the bus, in the grass, on the beach, at night.....
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DonP
post Dec 31 2011, 18:08
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Some things to consider:

Older sansa's had separate volume controls for line out vs headphone out (line out through the charging/data port) so you don't have to adjust when you switch between phones and your stereo. I expect the latest Fuze does the same. The clip uses a basic USB connection, not the custom sansa port, so no line out.

Various models have different maximum output voltage, so may not be able to match other appliances feeding your stereo.

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samd1885
post Dec 31 2011, 20:36
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I am going to get the fuze v2 or at least this is the one I am thinking of, not the clip rolleyes.gif The fuze has line out but I have a question, what's the difference between the headphone input and the line out? To me, they both send sound from the mp3 player so I don't understand. Is the lineout a separate cable and not the usual line out (computer) size, is it a special one? Like ipods, i.e unique.

Also, sorry, may seem simple but what is the maximum output voltage? Does it need to match the hifi system? If I am using the amp from the hifi. Please explain, I have no idea, sorry,

Thanks,
Sam.

This post has been edited by db1989: Jan 1 2012, 15:54
Reason for edit: merging in needless double-post (2 min difference) referring to same post and removing two unnecessary full quotes
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saratoga
post Dec 31 2011, 22:29
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QUOTE (samd1885 @ Dec 31 2011, 14:36) *
I am going to get the fuze v2 or at least this is the one I am thinking of, not the clip rolleyes.gif The fuze has line out but I have a question, what's the difference between the headphone input and the line out? To me, they both send sound from the mp3 player so I don't understand. Is the lineout a separate cable and not the usual line out (computer) size, is it a special one? Like ipods, i.e unique.
Thanks,
Sam.


http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=92595

QUOTE (samd1885 @ Dec 31 2011, 14:36) *
Also, sorry, may seem simple but what is the maximum output voltage?


Check the section "maximum output" in the link to the clip+ tests I posted above. The FuzeV2 and Clip+ are identical in this regard.
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