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fb2k shows only 1st value of %title% w/ multiple values (from MP3tag), Plus general discussion of ID3v2 and its implementation+future in fb2k
rodrigomartinho
post Dec 27 2011, 19:13
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I use mp3tag for setting my tags up. I write id3v2.4 tags.

I am having a problem inputing multiple values in the %title% field (TIT2).

As stated in id3v2.4 specifications, it allows multiple values for all fields starting with T, except TXXX ones. Multiple values should be separated with NULL char. For that, mp3tag uses 2 backslashes (\\). When I input a multiple title value in it, for instance AAA\\BBB, it correctly separates the values in two title fields. Looking at the tag in a Hex editor, I see the TIT2 frame with both values separated with the NULL (00) character.

But, when going to foobar, it is only showing the first title. That happens in all places (filter panel, playlist view and tag editor window). For being sure it isn't reading the further values, I tried $meta(title), which returns only the first value, and $meta_num(title) which returns 1.

The odd thing is, if I save both id3v2.4 and ape2 tags in the file, foobar correctly shows all values when calling $meta(title) in playlist view or when calling just "title" in filter panel. But I don't want to use ape tags, since it has precedence over id3 and leads to other problems, like inconsistency in %discnumber% field. In flac files all works correctly too, which leads me to think it's a problem specifically with id3 tags.

All other fields I use, such as %artist% and %composer%, among others, works correctly with multiple values.

I added "TITLE" to "file > Preferences > Advanced > Properties dialog > Multivalue fields" and it still didn't work.

Anyone has any clue about why this is happening, and what should I do to make multiple values in %title% work?

Thanks in advance,

Rodrigo Martinho.
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db1989
post Dec 27 2011, 19:39
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It could be that foobar2000 simply does not support that field as a multi-value one, for whatever reason.

Either way, the same behaviour, with various fields, has been reported before:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=71571
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=92184

My brief search did not find any resolution to the question. It would be good to hear an official opinion.
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rodrigomartinho
post Dec 27 2011, 20:18
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Dec 27 2011, 16:39) *
It could be that foobar2000 simply does not support that field as a multi-value one, for whatever reason.


Maybe that's true, but why would this happen only with id3 tags? With ape and vorbis comments all works as expected...

Multiple values in title tag is very usefull, since there are many tracks that have more than one song in it. With multiple values I can filter a song even if it isn't the first in a track.

Let's wait then if any developer gives an official opinion.

Thanks for your help.
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Tigermess
post Dec 28 2011, 00:03
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QUOTE (rodrigomartinho @ Dec 27 2011, 20:18) *
Maybe that's true, but why would this happen only with id3 tags?


As Peter (dev) has recently said, ID3v2 is a horrible standard smile.gif I'm not programmer to judge it myself but I can see that later standards like VorbisComment or APE define all fields generally: header, name which can be anything (ARTIST, TITLE, YEAR..), content, footer, encoding bytes... so once you implement first field into your software, you implement them all - all are handled the same. ID3 is different - it defines tens or hundreds of fields, each having its own name and scheme - size, length of header, frame specific bytes idk... so developer has to implement each field separately. You can guess which approach means more work - when all fields are generally the same, or when each field is specific. That's why there's almost none 100% true-to-ID3.org-standards implementation of ID3v2 tags on the market (not even in foobar) and it's why it doesn't concern APE or VorbisComment.

QUOTE (rodrigomartinho @ Dec 27 2011, 20:18) *
Multiple values in title tag is very usefull

I agree. Maybe it's not noticable from the first paragraph but for me proper implementation of ID3v2.4 multiple values in foobar2000 is my biggest wish. I started using ID3v2.4 just because of multifields - imho this is the biggest advantage above ID2v2.3. I am new to this community so I don't feel like having some requests or wishes, however if you will start "official negotiations smile.gif" in this matter I will support it as I can.

The important question for foobar2000 developers is if they are willing to work on this and when do they expect it may be finished. Maybe, after hearing the first date, we will decide that it will be easier to cross to APE laugh.gif OTOH because current implementation is against standards, we don't ask fancy stuff like glimmering text and "more pictures and icons everywhere" and the problem is known for at least few years as db1989 exposed, it could become... definitely most important thing on the earth after developers' breakfast biggrin.gif

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db1989
post Dec 28 2011, 00:27
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QUOTE (Tigermess @ Dec 27 2011, 23:03) *
ID3v2 is a horrible standard

And an “informal standard” at that: the documents on id3.org are marked thus, and while they make references to some future “formal standard” I can’t see any such thing. What with that and the conflicts between different applications that use different frames for different purposes, a mess is practically guaranteed.

For example: the frame TPE2 is defined (in the “informal standard”) as being for the band/orchestra but is used as album artist by iTunes and other applications, and the resulting demand eventually led Peter to change foobar2000’s behaviour accordingly and thereby ease off on his desire to follow the (informal) standard as closely as possible.

That’s not a bad thing, as it probably works out best overall—and there’s no ID3 police to worry about!—but the entire issue probably wouldn’t have arisen if the format used by all these applications were simple, sensible, clearly defined, and (largely dependent upon all of the above) used properly by everyone.

None of this requires some central committee to rubber-stamp everything, just a tagging standard that doesn’t tie one’s brain in knots within the first page!
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rodrigomartinho
post Dec 28 2011, 02:50
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No one stated it explicitly, but I am then assuming that multiple values isn't supported in title field and I am not messing up anything.

Lol, the funny thing is that I, for the wrong reason (I thought I would gain compatibility with more softwares around there, without losing any feature), used to write in mp3tag both id3 and ape2 tags, which, since ape has the precedence, leaded to the desired behavior in title field. But using ape tags leads to an inconsistency in discnumber field, and in mp3tag forum I was discouraged to use them. So I just removed them from all my files do discover this new problem.

Now I don't know what to do. I have been for a long time seeking total compatibility between foobar and mp3tag, so I can change tags in any of them and nothing made by the other gets messed up. Now, if I use ape2, I have the multiple value in title but an inconsistency in discnumber. If I use id3, I have total compatibility in tag edition but lose the multiple values in title. Since I really want to use multiple values in title, I will try to solve the discnumber issue.


I'm sorry if this ain't the proper place, but I will make some more comments about id3.

In fact I seek compatibility with many softwares only because of file sharing. I myself have been for many years now just using mp3tag and foobar. I don't even need iTunes, since foobar can handle iPods, and it does that better than iTunes (the possibility of mapping tags before sending files to iPod is a must!). And I try to convince all my friends to do the same. So this year I got the id3v2.4 standard and redesigned my own way of tagging, redefining all fields I would use and making it as close as possible to the standard. For instance, I use TPE2 for band, not album artist. I use TXXX album_artist for that. It was at that time that I started to face these little incompatibilities, and so started to read more about the standards.

We can find everywhere complaints about id3 specs, but we seem kinda stuck with it because it is the most used scheme. But, as far as I am concerned, lots of people are aware of these problems and try to solve them to various degrees, since they want to have enabled all the potencial that proper and complete tagging can offer. These people usually are aware of good software like foobar and mp3tag and stay away from iTunes, Media Player, etc. Wouldn't it be the case to find a complete solution for such people, even if it wouldn't work with many of the software out there? For instance, what would be the hindrances for implementing vorbis comments for mp3 files? Is that possible? Since vorbis comments has none of the blunders of id3, it would be great to write both id3 and vorbis comments into mp3 files. Those softwares which could read vorbis comments would do so, and we would have full tagging power. Those which couldn't, they would read only id3 and at least partially work.

Is this kind of sollution that was tried for id3 and ape2? I still have problems between mp3tag and foobar with it, and I already use vorbis comments because of flac files, but I'll read more about ape2 anyway, maybe I just didn't find the solution yet.

The only problem with open schemes is that anyone may call the field whatever they like. Maybe that's why id3 turned into the most used scheme. But I don't see this as a big problem, because most fields are already used with a standard name, so noone would have to change it, and, mostly, because with such open scheme you can tell foobar to read whatever name you chose.

Saying it in few words, it seems to me that foobar (and mp3tag) community is strong enough for making up its own standard with vorbis comments or ape2 to be used along with id3.

Regards,

Rodrigo Martinho.
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rodrigomartinho
post Dec 28 2011, 21:51
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Tigermess, thank you for pointing me to that topic. It seems sergeymen long time ago ran to the same type of problem I am facing now.

As he did, I am changing to ape2. After some more hours of tests, it is now clear to me that what I asked about vorbis comments inside mp3 files was already accomplished with ape tags. The last inconsistency was about mp3tag saving "discnumber", and foobar saving only "disc". I fixed this by mapping these tag names inside mp3tag. Now it shows "discnumber" everywhere in the software, but saves as "disc" in mp3 files.

With this feature of mapping tag names in mp3tag one can keep the various tag names consistent between the various file formats. So it wouldn't be hard if I decide to go back to id3. I will just have to open my files in mp3tag and make it save id3 tags.

For now, I will delete all id3 tags from my mp3 and stay only with ape2, so I can finally use all the tagging potencial, as multiple values, inside foobar.

Regards,

Rodrigo Martinho.
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Tigermess
post Dec 29 2011, 01:03
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Oh, I forgot to declare the point... I see you already thinked of it. Just to summarize:

Current state of id3v2.4 implementation in foobar:
- multiple values ("multiple strings" acc. to id3v2.4 informal standard) are supported only among small number of fields: TPE1=artist, TPE2=album artist or band, TCON=genre, TXXX=user defined frame and maybe few others. To remain objective, TXXX can be unlimited number of fields, so basically any information can be stored with multiple strings, the only disadvantage is that the information can't be stored in a frame which is proposed by ID3v2.4 informal standard (thanks, db :-)). The fields where multiple strings definitely aren't supported are among all TIT2=title, TSOP/TSOT/TSOA=sort names for artist/title/album, TPUB=label, WXXX/WOAR/WPUB/W-anything=all types of fields for URLs. From unsupported fields, only first value is read, and when user attempts to save multiple strings, the field is converted to TXXX frame instead of the original frame.
- only limited number of fields is supported. Of course these are the most used fields and most of the users can do with that. There are also fields not mentioned in the table like WXXX=WWW in foobar or TSST=SET SUBTITLE. On the other hand there are still unimplemented fields. Personally, I've been using TOFN=original filename field for years (netlabels and scene releases) and there's no way how to display this field in foobar.

From what I've read I understood that id3v2 support in foobar2000 is constantly improving, so hopefully it might get fixed in the future. For now, the easiest solution is cross to APEv2 tags. I'm glad you wrote the resume, Rodrigo. How much I don't feel comfortable with the idea of having "alien" tags in MP3 for which ID3 was designed I'm considering crossing the same boundary, and I welcome all experiences of fellow taggers. The only thing I am afraid of is we aren't blinded by chasing the perfection so much that we don't see that the results can bring fruits only on most up-to-date, fully configurable and configured software players. I don't want to polute support forum with my thoughts so I will experiment, research APEv2 tags and address my doubts in more proper part of HA.

QUOTE (db1989 @ Dec 28 2011, 00:27) *
and there’s no ID3 police to worry about!

hahahah biggrin.gif I like the idea of ID3 police!! WE should start it and unite the world in ID3 usage!! Or, if it turns out impossible, help the world to get rid of it, once and for all. Actually I'm starting to hate all tags. So many words for such a small thing.

This post has been edited by Tigermess: Dec 29 2011, 01:04
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rodrigomartinho
post Dec 29 2011, 03:23
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QUOTE (Tigermess @ Dec 28 2011, 22:03) *
Oh, I forgot to declare the point... I see you already thinked of it. Just to summarize:

Current state of id3v2.4 implementation in foobar:
- multiple values ("multiple strings" acc. to id3v2.4 informal standard) are supported only among small number of fields: TPE1=artist, TPE2=album artist or band, TCON=genre, TXXX=user defined frame and maybe few others. To remain objective, TXXX can be unlimited number of fields, so basically any information can be stored with multiple strings, the only disadvantage is that the information can't be stored in a frame which is proposed by ID3v2.4 informal standard (thanks, db :-)). The fields where multiple strings definitely aren't supported are among all TIT2=title, TSOP/TSOT/TSOA=sort names for artist/title/album, TPUB=label, WXXX/WOAR/WPUB/W-anything=all types of fields for URLs. From unsupported fields, only first value is read, and when user attempts to save multiple strings, the field is converted to TXXX frame instead of the original frame.

Thanks for confirming the list of all frames where multiple values are supported.

QUOTE (Tigermess @ Dec 28 2011, 22:03) *
Personally, I've been using TOFN=original filename field for years (netlabels and scene releases) and there's no way how to display this field in foobar.

For such cases, I created an "Action" in mp3tag that copies the unsuported tag to a TXXX. I made this for "musiciancredits" (TMCL), that is also unsupported. The action copies the values to "TXXX musicians", and I tell foobar to read this frame. Of course when using only apev2 tags I won't have to do this anymore.

QUOTE (Tigermess @ Dec 28 2011, 22:03) *
The only thing I am afraid of is we aren't blinded by chasing the perfection so much that we don't see that the results can bring fruits only on most up-to-date, fully configurable and configured software players. I don't want to polute support forum with my thoughts so I will experiment, research APEv2 tags and address my doubts in more proper part of HA.

We aren't blinded because we already know the results will only fully work in certain software, and we still prefer it this way! smile.gif

Anyway, Monkey's Audio website states that ape files are supported by many popular software, such as Windows Media Player and Winamp. I didn't test any though. Apart of that, since a correct mapping of fields is made in mp3tag, it would be very easy to insert id3 tags again in my files, so I am not afraid. And, for security, I already export my tags to text files, so I can reimport them if anything happen.
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db1989
post Dec 29 2011, 03:43
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QUOTE (rodrigomartinho @ Dec 29 2011, 02:23) *
Anyway, Monkey's Audio website states that ape files are supported by many popular software, such as Windows Media Player and Winamp.
Officially? A brief check suggests that WinAmp does. WMP, on the other hand, has always required to have this functionality added by the third-party WMP Tag Support Extender (now obsoleted by WMP Tag Plus, but the latter does not support APE yet despite plans to add it).
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rodrigomartinho
post Dec 29 2011, 04:04
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Dec 29 2011, 00:43) *
Officially? A brief check suggests that WinAmp does. WMP, on the other hand, has always required to have this functionality added by the third-party WMP Tag Support Extender (now obsoleted by WMP Tag Plus, but the latter does not support APE yet despite plans to add it).

I didn't check any, I just read it at Monkey's Audio site: Monkey's Audio. And it says about ape file format support, not apev2 tag support. Anyway, it is working with foobar and thats enough for me right now. As stated before, I abandoned any pretension for support from other software, I just want to use the full potencial within foobar.
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db1989
post Dec 29 2011, 04:16
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Ah, my mistake: my previous post was referring to APE tags within MP3 files (which is still hopefully somewhat understandable, given the context!). The format itself is playable by WMP after installing the DirectShow filter bundled with the download of MA, not by a vanilla installation of WMP (i.e. it is not officially supported).
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Tigermess
post Dec 29 2011, 19:33
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New topic about APEv2 in MP3 just started, you are welcome there
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