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Why Continue MP3 Development Given AAC?
izscors
post Dec 16 2011, 18:10
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Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am curious why there is continued development of MP3 encoding (such as LAME) when AAC is now long-known to yield superior quality for a given bit-rate (all other things being equal)?

I can sort of understand an explanation as being for the heck of it, but given that a superior method exists, why not work on improving even that instead? I'm not technolgically sophisticated enough to comment with any authority at all, so I pose the question.
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Engelsstaub
post Dec 21 2011, 05:02
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I was only wondering if it was possible. If it supports the iPod then it would have AAC playback capabilities and I wouldn't understand why it wasn't possible with the USB stick.

Based on replies from you and Soap, I understand that some manufacturers of car stereos don't support AAC. That's just stupid (IMO) when the majority of legally-purchased music is obtained through iTunes. It's even stupider (IMO) that they seem to think more people would be concerned about WMA playback.

As for me, I just use AAC for my lossy-encoding needs. I've nothing against MP3...it has some clear advantages. I just like the uniformity in my iTunes library and have to use it when encoding video as well.

Every device I own (and that's quite a few if I count kids and phones) supports it. I have an older Alpine stereo in my car. It supports AAC and has an iPod interface. Perhaps if my circumstances and usage were different, I'd be using MP3 instead. It would certainly be "just as good" as I only encode at "iTunes Plus" bitrates or 160 Kbps for video.


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The Loudness War is over. Now it's a hopeless occupation.
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saratoga
post Dec 21 2011, 06:41
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 23:02) *
That's just stupid (IMO) when the majority of legally-purchased music is obtained through iTunes. It's even stupider (IMO) that they seem to think more people would be concerned about WMA playback.


Most people who purchase music from iTunes use ipods. Since you have to pay to include AAC support in hardware devices, a lot of companies simply don't bother.

QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 23:02) *
Every device I own (and that's quite a few if I count kids and phones) supports it. I have an older Alpine stereo in my car. It supports AAC and has an iPod interface. Perhaps if my circumstances and usage were different, I'd be using MP3 instead. It would certainly be "just as good" as I only encode at "iTunes Plus" bitrates or 160 Kbps for video.


Yes, AAC is fine if you stick with the Apple ecosystem.
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MichaelW
post Dec 21 2011, 07:36
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 21 2011, 17:41) *
Yes, AAC is fine if you stick with the Apple ecosystem.


I thought one of the things established in this thread was that AAC is NOT an Apple proprietary format. But obviously, in some eyes, it is for ever tainted by being the format chosen for iTunes.
(Don't bother, I know you didn't SAY that, and I know MP3 is more universal, but it would be nice to keep the AAC = Apple = DRM = teh ebbil set of associations out of it.)
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saratoga
post Dec 21 2011, 21:07
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QUOTE (MichaelW @ Dec 21 2011, 01:36) *
QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 21 2011, 17:41) *
Yes, AAC is fine if you stick with the Apple ecosystem.


I thought one of the things established in this thread was that AAC is NOT an Apple proprietary format. But obviously, in some eyes, it is for ever tainted by being the format chosen for iTunes.



On the contrary, I meant it as a compliment to Apple. They seem to be one of the only companies that has managed to get a truly robust AAC implementation across a large number of hardware devices that works as well as it should. With an iPod I am quite sure that any AAC-LC file I am likely to make or find will play, have its tags properly parsed, etc. Outside of Apple products, AAC support tends to be incomplete or even outright buggy (Sandisk i'm looking at you...). Even in the software I've worked on for rockbox we are just now beginning to approach Apple's level of robustness for AAC support after many years of trying.

QUOTE (MichaelW @ Dec 21 2011, 01:36) *
(Don't bother, I know you didn't SAY that, and I know MP3 is more universal, but it would be nice to keep the AAC = Apple = DRM = teh ebbil set of associations out of it.)


Ironically, your extreme sensitivity to this topic is the only reason it was brought up. No one here thinks AAC belongs to Apple, just that in practice their products tend to be among the few worth using it with (as a music file format at least). Perhaps you should assume people here know at least a little about audio.
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MichaelW
post Dec 22 2011, 06:33
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 22 2011, 08:07) *
On the contrary, I meant it as a compliment to Apple. They seem to be one of the only companies that has managed to get a truly robust AAC implementation across a large number of hardware devices that works as well as it should. With an iPod I am quite sure that any AAC-LC file I am likely to make or find will play, have its tags properly parsed, etc. Outside of Apple products, AAC support tends to be incomplete or even outright buggy (Sandisk i'm looking at you...). Even in the software I've worked on for rockbox we are just now beginning to approach Apple's level of robustness for AAC support after many years of trying.
SNIP
Ironically, your extreme sensitivity to this topic is the only reason it was brought up. No one here thinks AAC belongs to Apple, just that in practice their products tend to be among the few worth using it with (as a music file format at least). Perhaps you should assume people here know at least a little about audio.


My apologies: I completely misunderstood your point, though I thought it odd, given rockbox's support for AAC. OTOH, I thought post #13 in this discussion tends towards the AAC = Apple mode, though not of course explicitly, and it is an attitude that's around, even here (yes, some people here have forgotten more about audio than I will ever learn, but not everybody).

BTW, I really liked rockbox on my iRiver H120, which I only traded from when I needed a bigger drive.
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Posts in this topic
- izscors   Why Continue MP3 Development Given AAC?   Dec 16 2011, 18:10
- - hlloyge   AAC is, as I learned, better at lower bitrates (96...   Dec 16 2011, 18:15
|- - izscors   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Dec 16 2011, 13:15) AAC ...   Dec 16 2011, 18:50
|- - hlloyge   QUOTE (izscors @ Dec 16 2011, 19:50) Is i...   Dec 17 2011, 13:42
- - saratoga   QUOTE (izscors @ Dec 16 2011, 12:10) I ca...   Dec 16 2011, 18:35
- - DVDdoug   As long as there is interest and demand, and as lo...   Dec 16 2011, 18:59
|- - izscors   I guess we have them both because there are styli...   Dec 16 2011, 19:28
|- - saratoga   Its not really clear to me what you expect to happ...   Dec 16 2011, 19:36
- - kode54   No, but perhaps some people may start to work on F...   Dec 16 2011, 20:23
- - kwanbis   QUOTE (izscors @ Dec 16 2011, 18:10) Plea...   Dec 16 2011, 23:04
- - kennedyb4   Some devices do not support AAC. My friend has a n...   Dec 17 2011, 03:25
|- - marc2003   QUOTE (kennedyb4 @ Dec 17 2011, 02:25) So...   Dec 17 2011, 11:06
|- - Elbart   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 17 2011, 11:06) QUO...   Dec 18 2011, 10:23
||- - kwanbis   QUOTE (Elbart @ Dec 18 2011, 10:23) iPods...   Dec 18 2011, 18:07
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 17 2011, 02:06) tha...   Dec 18 2011, 17:36
- - onkl   The difference in quality is too small to justify ...   Dec 17 2011, 07:07
- - halb27   With today's cheap and huge storage capacities...   Dec 17 2011, 08:15
- - shakey_snake   Because we want to be tortured by id3 tagging fore...   Dec 17 2011, 15:14
|- - odigg   I know this response may make people think I'm...   Dec 17 2011, 17:45
|- - Soap   QUOTE (odigg @ Dec 17 2011, 12:45) I wond...   Dec 17 2011, 18:10
|- - odigg   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 17 2011, 12:10) You don...   Dec 17 2011, 18:18
- - lvqcl   QUOTE such a focus on MP3 use and development? Ho...   Dec 17 2011, 18:21
|- - odigg   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Dec 17 2011, 12:21) How ma...   Dec 17 2011, 18:28
- - GHammer   I like MP3 because: I've used it since I star...   Dec 17 2011, 18:24
- - kennedyb4   I think it is very worthwhile to perfect where pos...   Dec 17 2011, 18:57
|- - izzyfinhaifa   QUOTE (kennedyb4 @ Dec 17 2011, 10:57) Bu...   Dec 18 2011, 14:19
|- - pdq   QUOTE (izzyfinhaifa @ Dec 18 2011, 09:19)...   Dec 19 2011, 05:38
|- - slks   QUOTE (pdq @ Dec 18 2011, 22:38) QUOTE (i...   Dec 20 2011, 06:43
|- - pdq   QUOTE (slks @ Dec 20 2011, 01:43) I have ...   Dec 20 2011, 13:33
- - marc2003   oh i know that. but you still have relatively few ...   Dec 18 2011, 11:57
|- - jukkap   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 18 2011, 12:57) oh ...   Dec 18 2011, 15:18
|- - marc2003   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 18 2011, 14:18) All 3...   Dec 18 2011, 21:33
|- - MichaelW   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:33) 3G?...   Dec 19 2011, 03:52
||- - marc2003   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Dec 19 2011, 02:52) Oh,...   Dec 19 2011, 12:47
|- - jukkap   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 18 2011, 22:33) QUO...   Dec 19 2011, 09:10
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 19 2011, 09:10) I...   Dec 19 2011, 12:26
|- - probedb   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 19 2011, 08:10) I...   Dec 19 2011, 15:35
- - lvqcl   QUOTE (izzyfinhaifa @ Dec 18 2011, 17:19)...   Dec 18 2011, 14:32
- - Kujibo   I was once of the mindset many years ago that I wa...   Dec 19 2011, 02:19
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Kujibo @ Dec 18 2011, 20:19) So fo...   Dec 19 2011, 18:51
- - Goratrix   I would only consider moving away from mp3 if ther...   Dec 19 2011, 15:30
- - jukkap   QUOTE (Goratrix @ Dec 19 2011, 16:30) I w...   Dec 19 2011, 20:59
|- - saratoga   As per our forum rules, if you are going to make c...   Dec 19 2011, 21:18
||- - jukkap   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 19 2011, 22:18) As ...   Dec 20 2011, 14:02
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 19 2011, 20:59) AAC j...   Dec 19 2011, 22:18
|- - probedb   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 19 2011, 19:59) AAC j...   Dec 20 2011, 09:41
- - IgorC   jukkap While your AAC encoder is CBR (or "s...   Dec 20 2011, 14:16
|- - jukkap   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 20 2011, 15:16) jukkap...   Dec 21 2011, 11:59
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 21 2011, 07:59) Accor...   Dec 21 2011, 13:30
- - shadowking   Even 5 ~ 10 yrs ago the difference between aac and...   Dec 20 2011, 15:05
- - greynol   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 20 2011, 05:02) I am ...   Dec 20 2011, 18:33
|- - jukkap   QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 20 2011, 19:33) QUOT...   Dec 21 2011, 11:45
|- - spoon   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 21 2011, 10:45) I use...   Dec 21 2011, 13:08
|- - The Seeker   QUOTE (spoon @ Dec 21 2011, 13:08) Ok so ...   Dec 21 2011, 14:45
- - Engelsstaub   Some here are saying that MP3 is "universal....   Dec 20 2011, 20:06
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 19:06) ...   Dec 20 2011, 21:12
||- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Nick.C @ Dec 20 2011, 14:12) QUOTE...   Dec 20 2011, 21:45
||- - GHammer   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 16:45) ...   Dec 21 2011, 03:48
||- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (GHammer @ Dec 20 2011, 20:48) My n...   Dec 21 2011, 04:03
|||- - GHammer   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 23:03) ...   Dec 21 2011, 04:47
||- - Soap   QUOTE (GHammer @ Dec 20 2011, 21:48) My n...   Dec 21 2011, 04:21
|- - Brand   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 20:06) ...   Dec 20 2011, 23:18
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (Brand @ Dec 21 2011, 10:18) Many P...   Dec 20 2011, 23:25
|- - onkl   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 21 2011, 05:02) ...   Dec 21 2011, 09:38
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (onkl @ Dec 21 2011, 02:38) ...so w...   Dec 21 2011, 10:19
|- - nu774   When coupling with H264, usually AAC is used (sinc...   Dec 21 2011, 11:42
- - IgorC   I have a question who really has performed ABX tes...   Dec 20 2011, 20:56
|- - halb27   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 20 2011, 20:56) ..... ...   Dec 20 2011, 22:00
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (halb27 @ Dec 20 2011, 18:00) Sure ...   Dec 20 2011, 23:45
|- - halb27   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 20 2011, 23:45) QUOTE ...   Dec 21 2011, 01:47
- - Woodinville   Well, there has also been a very nasty mess in the...   Dec 21 2011, 00:01
- - IgorC   Can You provide the results where You have compare...   Dec 21 2011, 02:59
|- - halb27   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 21 2011, 02:59) Can Yo...   Dec 21 2011, 10:42
- - nu774   Cell phones in Japan used to support AAC in 3gp/3g...   Dec 21 2011, 03:47
- - Engelsstaub   I was only wondering if it was possible. If it sup...   Dec 21 2011, 05:02
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 23:02) ...   Dec 21 2011, 06:41
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 21 2011, 17:41) Yes...   Dec 21 2011, 07:36
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Dec 21 2011, 01:36) QUO...   Dec 21 2011, 21:07
||- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 21 2011, 14:07) ......   Dec 22 2011, 02:36
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 22 2011, 08:07) On ...   Dec 22 2011, 06:33
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 22 2011, 08:07) On ...   Dec 22 2011, 06:57
||- - Soap   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Dec 22 2011, 00:57) of ...   Dec 22 2011, 13:45
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 20:02) ...   Dec 21 2011, 06:55
- - greynol   Pretending Apple never came into play, you don...   Dec 21 2011, 08:38
- - IgorC   I mean the comparison of different versions of LAM...   Dec 21 2011, 11:33
- - spoon   Thanks, you have learned that to me now   Dec 21 2011, 14:48
|- - The Seeker   QUOTE (spoon @ Dec 21 2011, 14:48) Thanks...   Dec 21 2011, 20:28
- - db1989   I see what he did there…   Dec 21 2011, 20:38
- - shakey_snake   Glad to see my earlier comment went appreciated. ...   Dec 22 2011, 06:55
- - IgorC   Also Microsoft fully supports standards LC-AAC/HE...   Dec 22 2011, 14:08
- - hernaaan   Perhaps the one who started the topic wanted to sa...   Dec 22 2011, 14:58
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (hernaaan @ Dec 22 2011, 17:58) peo...   Dec 22 2011, 15:59
- - nu774   I think there's some truth in "AAC=Apple...   Dec 22 2011, 15:55
- - apodtele   The virtue of MP3 is its simplicity compared to WM...   Dec 22 2011, 19:00
- - Soap   QUOTE (apodtele @ Dec 22 2011, 13:00) The...   Dec 22 2011, 19:26
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 22 2011, 19:26) Dare I ...   Dec 22 2011, 19:38
|- - Soap   QUOTE (kwanbis @ Dec 22 2011, 13:38) QUOT...   Dec 22 2011, 19:43
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 22 2011, 19:43) And dar...   Dec 22 2011, 21:02
- - greynol   QUOTE (apodtele @ Dec 22 2011, 10:00) The...   Dec 22 2011, 20:30
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