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EAC secure mode test proposal, Testing its real accuracy
tigre
post May 3 2003, 14:41
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Edit : this discussion is splitted from this thread : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=20&t=8849


QUOTE (spoon @ May 3 2003 - 02:23 AM)
QUOTE
Well, actually errors 'always' (99.99...%) return different data for every new read.


How do you know that? it might be 60%, or 10%, because it cannot detect when the data is the same you cannot put a % on it. When AccurateRip makes its way onto EAC then you could put a percentage on it.

A. I haven't read anything about a "validated" percentage like this anywhere (wrong_samples_noticed_by_EAC_due_to_non-matching_results_on_re-read / total_number_of_wrong_samples).


B. This could be tested (volunteers appreciated) like this:

1. You need a (set of) reference .wav file(s). For this either rip a CD in perfect condition, EAC secure mode, ideally compare the CRC to a identical disk's ripped by someone else (cheers to AccurateRip wink.gif ) or choose some .wav files, burn them to CD-R and make sure you keep them unchanged on your HDD.

2. Take the CD(-R), damage it (e.g. different kind of scratches, caused by screwdrivers, sandig paper, ...; dirty fingerprints; draw lines with a thin marker on the data side; ...). Start carefully and try what happens in the next steps. If the disk turns unreadable and causes timing problems/sync errors in burst mode this won't work ...

3. Extract the damaged disk two times in burst mode resulting in a.wav and b.wav.

4. Do wave substractions (Cool Edit: mix paste - overlap - invert checked) r-a.wav=reference.wav - a.wav and r-b.wav = reference.wav - b.wav and a-b.wav = a.wav - b.wav
using Cool Edit or another wave editor capable of that - make sure that dither is disabled in this and the next steps.

5. We want to know how many samples have been turned "wrong" by damaging the disk, so we create a Cool Edit boolean operation like this: if a sample has been read correctly in a.wav, the corresponding sample in r-a.wav will be 0, otherwise something =|= 0. To find samples that are wrong in a OR b, we add r-a.wav and r-b.wav. To prevent errors here we multiply both files with themselves (Cool Edit: mix paste -> modulate), so all values are 0 (correct) or >0 (wrong). To prevent errors here (Cool Edit devides by 32768 after multiplying, so values -182<y<182 will turn 0 due to rounding) we amplify both .wavs by 100dB before. This will lead to 0 values = correct and 32767 values = incorrect (-> amplification by 100 dB makes all samples =|= 0 clip in 16 bit resolution). So the steps are:

5.1. Amplifying: r-a_100.wav = r-a + 100dB; r-b_100.wav = r-a + 100dB
5.2. Copy r-a_100.wav to clipboard and mix paste - modulate r-a_100.wav with data from clipboard, result: r-a_100m.wav; do the same with r-b_100.wav => r-b_100m.wav
5.3. Add (= Cool Edit mix paste - overlap) r-a_100m.wav + r-b_100m.wav = wrong_samples.wav


In the file wrong_samples.wav. we have now all 0 samples stand for correctly extracted samples in both EAC burst mode runs while =|= 0 samples (32767) stand for extraction errors.

6. Now first interesting thing to do IMO would be to have a look at the error postitions. Are there isolated wrong samples or do they occur as blocks / "bursts"?

7. Now we want to know how many of the wrong samples have gotten different values in the two burst mode runs so EAC secure mode would have detected them. For this we
7.1. apply steps 5.1 and 5.2 to a-b.wav resulting in a-b_100m.wav
Step 7.2.
7.2.1. Take a-b_100m.wav and apply Channel Mixer -> Full mix (L = L+R; R = L+R). -> detected_errors.wav
7.2.2.: multiply wrong_samples.wav with detected_errors.wav (Mix Paste Modulate) and substract the result from detected_errors.wav, resulting in the corrected undetected_errors.wav.


The result will contain 0 samples for correct samples and detected errors and 32767 samples for undetected errors.

8. Counting the Number of 32767 samples in wrong_samples.wav (W) and in undetected_errors.wav (O) will enable you to calculate a percentage of correctly detected errors: P=(W-O)/W

Have fun smile.gif

edit:
Additionally we could rip 3 or 4 times in burst mode instead of 2 times to find out if and how often Test & Copy in secure mode without C2 detects addtional errors.

And we could rip in secure mode, C2 enabled (if drive capable) to find out the "P" value for the drive's C2 detection.

edit2: changed some "?" to "=|=" which means "un-eaqual"

edit3:
I missed one thing: If in the 1st 2 reads an error occurs, the sample is re-read in both channels, no matter if the error was detected in one or both channels. So "undetected" errors in one channel are in fact detected if there's a detected error at the same postion on the other channel.

To take this into account in the test, step 7 is modified (see above).

This post has been edited by tigre: May 6 2003, 10:28


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DrDoogie
post May 5 2003, 14:58
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Tigre:
5 sounds good, I'll have a look at it later. But the underlying assumption of your argument, that EAC can be used to test the correctness of a drive's error-reporting / accurate rip, is that EAC doesn't mess up the wav in any way. Which sounds reasonable, only I would like to add that I have seen cases where cdparanoia and plextools would return identical rips, and EAC would disagree. And in this case, that using all variations of ripping modes in EAC (and a number of different speeds for the drive) still gave the exact same disagreement between rips.

So.. perhaps one should test different rippers as well?

QUOTE ("american dude")
Isn't it possible that the drive speed affects the accuracy of the read?


Yes, that is correct. CAV seems better than CLV from my tests with daequality - I would guess the constant velocity of the drive is easier on the servo'es and thus the ECC-handling (less jitter, for starts).
Try daequality's disc and instructions out at different speed settings for your drive.

QUOTE
EDIT:  DrDoogie, you take my advice to get out of Iraq, you run like hell, and then you stop in North Korea!?  I would really advise you to change travel agents.


Who's running?
I'm just stoking up on radioactives, before I go on my annual holiday to the land of the free and the brave burger-munchers. You'd be amazed at how much material one can bring into the country if one only dilutes it, shields it a bit, and is patient.
Now, which city should be brought to justice, I wonder? "Inee-meeny-meeny-moo, where is the dirty bomb gonna blow?" tongue.gif
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Posts in this topic
- tigre   EAC secure mode test proposal   May 3 2003, 14:41
- - Pio2001   For this kind of tests, it would be much better to...   May 3 2003, 15:11
- - mrosscook   tigre, Your test outline is very interesting and ...   May 3 2003, 15:49
- - liekloo   QUOTE (mrosscook @ May 3 2003 - 03:49 PM)Tigr...   May 4 2003, 12:00
- - evereux   QUOTE (mrosscook @ May 3 2003 - 02:49 PM)Ther...   May 4 2003, 12:04
- - Canar   QUOTE (DrDoogie @ May 2 2003 - 07:48 AM)QUOTE...   May 4 2003, 12:16
- - liekloo   QUOTE (evereux @ May 4 2003 - 12:04 PM)QUOTE ...   May 4 2003, 12:35
- - evereux   I have read a file can be manipulated to give the ...   May 4 2003, 12:50
- - Pio2001   EAC's CRC are 32 bits, thus there is one chanc...   May 4 2003, 13:50
- - mrosscook   No, the point I'm trying to make doesn't h...   May 4 2003, 15:05
- - Pio2001   Yes, you're right. From experience, I think t...   May 4 2003, 19:44
- - Pio2001   I think it's sensible to assume that the first...   May 4 2003, 19:48
- - liekloo   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 4 2003 - 07:44 PM)Yes, y...   May 4 2003, 20:23
- - Pio2001   I don't think that their secureness is even si...   May 4 2003, 21:04
- - tigre   @All: Thanks for your replies, suggestions and att...   May 5 2003, 09:33
- - tigre   I started a test as proposed: The CD: VA - Stel...   May 5 2003, 09:39
- - DrDoogie   Tigre: 5 sounds good, I'll have a look at it l...   May 5 2003, 14:58
- - tigre   QUOTE (DrDoogie @ May 5 2003 - 05:58 AM)Tigre...   May 5 2003, 15:36
- - tigre   Test part 2 trying to take into account the amount...   May 6 2003, 11:44
- - DrDoogie   I think I lost track of the argument somewhere alo...   May 6 2003, 14:12
- - Pio2001   An error is given by the difference between the re...   May 6 2003, 15:49
- - tigre   1st: You ask a question, so I'd appreciate if ...   May 6 2003, 16:06
- - Pio2001   Tigre, your result is interesting. How does look l...   May 6 2003, 16:20
- - Pio2001   It would be interesting to know how your drive beh...   May 6 2003, 18:41
- - tigre   Thanks to Pio2001 who provided detailed informatio...   May 27 2003, 11:35
- - Pio2001   Wow ! This gives (1-20/10000)*100 = 99.8 % acc...   May 27 2003, 16:30
- - Canar   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 27 2003 - 07:30 AM)Wow ...   May 28 2003, 05:42
- - tigre   QUOTE (Canar @ May 27 2003 - 08:42 PM)QUOTE (...   May 28 2003, 08:32
- - tigre   I tested the same scratched CD with another drive:...   May 28 2003, 15:26
- - DrDoogie   QUOTE I'd rather say: We knew before that EAC ...   May 28 2003, 16:00
- - tigre   You're right about swans ... I just havn...   May 28 2003, 16:31
- - Pio2001   Saying EAC is not perfect, and not using it becaus...   May 28 2003, 18:44
- - Pio2001   Tigre, it seems what you call extended reread is a...   Jun 4 2003, 22:50
- - tigre   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jun 4 2003 - 01:50 PM)Tigre,...   Jun 5 2003, 00:11
- - Pio2001   I think I'll perform some little tests myself....   Jun 5 2003, 11:13
- - tigre   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jun 5 2003 - 02:13 AM)About ...   Jun 5 2003, 11:26
- - DrDoogie   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 28 2003 - 09:44 AM)Sayin...   Jun 5 2003, 15:05
- - Pio2001   I agree with you. But the reason for which EAC was...   Jun 5 2003, 19:50
- - kdo   QUOTE (tigre @ Jun 5 2003 - 11:26 AM)- It see...   Jun 7 2003, 21:44
- - Pio2001   QUOTE (kdo @ Jun 7 2003 - 11:44 PM)(Well, exc...   Jun 8 2003, 00:06
- - kdo   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jun 8 2003 - 12:06 AM)QUOTE ...   Jun 8 2003, 14:21
- - Pio2001   No doubt, no doubt !   Jun 8 2003, 23:39


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