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graph shows 320 kbps LAME 'never achieves transparency'?
krabapple
post Aug 26 2011, 19:21
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Someone is waving this in my face at another forum,after I asserted that people who can tell modern 320kbs LAME encodes from source in ABX constitute the a tiny minority of listeners, and even they may require 'killer samples' , rather than being able to do it all the time, e.g., with a random mix of music.

QUOTE ('amirm')
You talk about LAME. Let's look at that: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lame

Here is a graph from that page:


It shows that it *never* achieves transparency regardless of data rate.



I called bullsh*t on that rhetoric (e.g., on the very same wiki page, we see "-V0 (~245 kbps), -V1 (~225 kbps), -V2 (~190 kbps) or -V3 (~175 kbps) are recommended. These settings will normally produce transparent encoding (transparent = most people can't distinguish the MP3 from the original in an ABX blind test). Audible differences between these presets exist, but are rare. "

IMO, this graph is not evidence that 320 'never achieves transparency'. I know some people can ABX 320kbps. That is not the issue -- I have never claimed 320 is transparent to EVERYONE, all the time. Just that it's a rare ability, typically requiring training to hear specific artifacts, and possibly requiring carefully-chosen samples to reveal them.

The graph also lacks error/variation bars -- where's from, btw?

Dude (who is a former colleague of JJ) refuses to come over here and argue his case. I told him I'd bring it here for him. What say you, LAME developers and users?


full post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.ph...p;postcount=348

This post has been edited by krabapple: Aug 26 2011, 19:33
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LithosZA
post Aug 29 2011, 16:16
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I think by full 'Quality' on the graph they mean that it will never be bit exact quality from the source file. You never will be guaranteed that it will be lossless even if you pump up the bitrate to 320Kbit/s.
Transparent might be the wrong word. Transparent means that is 'sounds' transparent to the user.
Even though 192Kbit/s or even 320Kbit/s Vorbis sounds 'transparent' to me doesn't mean that is is full 'Quality'.

The graph probably wants to show that Lossy != Lossless.
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dhromed
post Aug 29 2011, 16:32
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QUOTE (LithosZA @ Aug 29 2011, 17:16) *
The graph probably wants to show that Lossy != Lossless.


The graph wants to show that quality and bitrate (or "quality setting") do not increase in perfect tandem with eachother, as stated earlier in this very thread. This is hardly news for anyone who's ever compressed any sort of media file.
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Posts in this topic
- krabapple   graph shows 320 kbps LAME 'never achieves transparency'?   Aug 26 2011, 19:21
- - [JAZ]   Either you, or the guys that told you about that g...   Aug 26 2011, 19:30
|- - greynol   QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Aug 26 2011, 11:30...   Aug 26 2011, 20:02
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (greynol @ Aug 26 2011, 15:02) QUOT...   Aug 26 2011, 22:12
|- - C.R.Helmrich   Exactly what I said. Someone called Jan: http://w...   Aug 26 2011, 22:22
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (krabapple @ Aug 27 2011, 01:12) Wh...   Aug 26 2011, 22:25
- - krabapple   So, what is the definition of 'quality' be...   Aug 26 2011, 19:41
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (krabapple @ Aug 26 2011, 14:41) So...   Aug 26 2011, 19:44
- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (krabapple @ Aug 26 2011, 20:21) IM...   Aug 26 2011, 19:52
- - krabapple   apparently this, to be precise http://www.hydroge...   Aug 26 2011, 22:34
|- - db1989   Yeah, it seems at best rather useless and at worst...   Aug 26 2011, 22:55
- - lvqcl   QUOTE and what 'XLS' is MS Excel spreadsh...   Aug 26 2011, 22:57
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Aug 26 2011, 17:57) QUOTE ...   Aug 26 2011, 23:13
- - krabapple   Dude still won't post here, but does have this...   Aug 28 2011, 21:29
|- - MichaelW   QUOTE (krabapple @ Aug 29 2011, 08:29) QU...   Aug 28 2011, 23:10
- - db1989   Is the objection limited solely to a somewhat misl...   Aug 28 2011, 22:08
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (db1989 @ Aug 28 2011, 17:08) Is th...   Aug 29 2011, 00:47
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (krabapple @ Aug 28 2011, 19:47) IM...   Aug 29 2011, 01:22
- - Notat   What is the definition of "transparent"?   Aug 29 2011, 05:17
|- - Zarggg   QUOTE (Notat @ Aug 29 2011, 00:17) What i...   Aug 30 2011, 00:36
|- - Notat   QUOTE (Zarggg @ Aug 29 2011, 17:36) QUOTE...   Aug 30 2011, 16:07
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Notat @ Aug 30 2011, 16:07) I have...   Aug 30 2011, 17:01
- - greensdrive   I am probably incorrect, so please inform me if so...   Aug 29 2011, 05:39
- - Notat   Which listener(s)? What source material? How are t...   Aug 29 2011, 14:01
- - LithosZA   I think by full 'Quality' on the graph the...   Aug 29 2011, 16:16
|- - dhromed   QUOTE (LithosZA @ Aug 29 2011, 17:16) The...   Aug 29 2011, 16:32
|- - Northpack   QUOTE (LithosZA @ Aug 29 2011, 16:16) I t...   Aug 29 2011, 22:05
- - greynol   QUOTE (LithosZA @ Aug 29 2011, 08:16) I t...   Aug 29 2011, 17:22
- - krabapple   Hey, I agree argument by proxy is lame. Amir (who...   Aug 29 2011, 19:53
- - pdq   Clearly this is someone who believes in the validi...   Aug 29 2011, 20:59
- - greynol   Perhaps I'm completely ignorant about p values...   Aug 30 2011, 01:53
- - db1989   Yep, the p-value is the probability that the obser...   Aug 30 2011, 12:07
- - 2Bdecided   I think the wiki article on "transparent...   Aug 30 2011, 17:08
|- - Notat   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Aug 30 2011, 10:08) I ...   Aug 30 2011, 19:05
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (Notat @ Aug 30 2011, 19:05) The HA...   Aug 30 2011, 19:37
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (Notat @ Aug 30 2011, 20:05) ...   Aug 30 2011, 20:16
|- - Notat   Sorry about reader fatigue and sloppy research. I...   Aug 30 2011, 21:50
- - greynol   <sigh> A link to the discussion was given r...   Aug 30 2011, 20:18
- - Destroid   In regards to the OP, what is the motive for slamm...   Aug 30 2011, 20:22
- - pdq   I think the main reason that many of us here at HA...   Aug 30 2011, 22:34
- - db1989   Ignore killer samples and golden ears, and instead...   Aug 30 2011, 22:40
- - Destroid   QUOTE (Notat @ Aug 30 2011, 21:50) And ye...   Aug 30 2011, 22:44
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Destroid @ Aug 30 2011, 14:44) I t...   Aug 30 2011, 23:23
- - mjb2006   I have gone ahead and updated the caption for the ...   Aug 30 2011, 22:51
|- - greynol   QUOTE (mjb2006 @ Aug 30 2011, 14:51) I ha...   Aug 30 2011, 23:25
- - MichaelW   "Transparent" is a word, and words have ...   Aug 31 2011, 02:21
|- - Notat   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Aug 30 2011, 19:21) I t...   Aug 31 2011, 18:16
- - greynol   I don't ever recall there being a problem with...   Aug 31 2011, 17:18
|- - MichaelW   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 1 2011, 04:18) I don...   Aug 31 2011, 22:56
|- - db1989   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Aug 31 2011, 22:56) BTW...   Aug 31 2011, 23:02
- - halb27   So transparency depends on the listener's abil...   Aug 31 2011, 20:18
|- - Notat   QUOTE (halb27 @ Aug 31 2011, 13:18) A pra...   Sep 1 2011, 00:28
- - greynol   Nitpicking indeed! I'm being asked to qua...   Aug 31 2011, 23:21
- - Canar   This graph really, really needs to go! A graph...   Sep 17 2011, 04:06
|- - bennetng   My perceived quality is that v0 is equal to b320. ...   Sep 17 2011, 04:21
- - smpltn   Do you mind removing that graph from the site? Peo...   Nov 16 2011, 01:31
- - greynol   The graph was already taken down. Are you suggest...   Nov 16 2011, 01:55


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