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Ripping and drive offset, 3 different drives
HTS
post Mar 28 2011, 08:13
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I'm trying to rip a few Audio CDs that I want to make sure that they are bit perfect. I'm using a sony 7240, 7260 and a Samsung SH224. The two sony drives returned identical results from EAC, but the samsung drive has a different offset and returned different crc values for a half of the tracks. (in total on all cds, averages 1/2 tracks per cd as well). I don't know what to do now, since half of the tracks did return identical CRCs, should i just assume that the rest of the tracks are solely affected by the varying offsets?


The offset values in the Accurip database didn't help.

Also, once they are ripped, what format should they be stored in? Does win7 have any kind of file integrity record for raw wav files? If not, then should I archive them in compressed audio formats like FLAC or simply use winrar on them?

Thanks.
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odyssey
post Mar 28 2011, 09:39
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If your drives are configured correctly, correcting the different offsets, they should rip the same data with same CRC*. However, I think you may be trying to rip a "Copy Controlled" CD or maybe just a damaged or badly manufactured CD in this case. Try some other CD's to see if they behave the same way.

Also, maybe try ripping in Secure mode.

* Disclaimer: I have to state that under certain very uncommon and rare circumstances, this may not be true.

This post has been edited by odyssey: Mar 28 2011, 09:39


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greynol
post Mar 28 2011, 14:04
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QUOTE (odyssey @ Mar 28 2011, 01:39) *
I have to state that under certain very uncommon and rare circumstances, this may not be true.

In the case drives with different offsets which cannot overread (or one can overread and the other cannot), this is not at all uncommon. This only affects either the first and/or last tracks on a disc, however.

HTS, please provide some logs illustrating your problem.

This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 28 2011, 14:06


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HTS
post Mar 28 2011, 21:57
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What format should it be in?
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greynol
post Mar 28 2011, 22:31
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Just do what this poster did with the second log presented (ignore the one generated by Nero):
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=86761

This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 28 2011, 22:33


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HTS
post Mar 29 2011, 00:12
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CODE
Exact Audio Copy V1.0 beta 1 from 15. November 2010

Used drive : TSSTcorpCDDVDW SH-S243D Adapter: 3 ID: 1

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : No
Make use of C2 pointers : Yes

Read offset correction : 48
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : No
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
Sample format : 44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 0:00.00 | 18:15.47 | 0 | 82171
2 | 18:15.47 | 9:05.38 | 82172 | 123084
3 | 27:21.10 | 11:08.37 | 123085 | 173221
4 | 38:29.47 | 2:43.00 | 173222 | 185446
5 | 41:12.47 | 1:54.28 | 185447 | 194024
6 | 43:07.00 | 2:08.67 | 194025 | 203691
7 | 45:15.67 | 2:26.45 | 203692 | 214686
8 | 47:42.37 | 1:32.18 | 214687 | 221604
9 | 49:14.55 | 0:59.37 | 221605 | 226066
10 | 50:14.17 | 1:24.73 | 226067 | 232439
11 | 51:39.15 | 2:36.07 | 232440 | 244146
12 | 54:15.22 | 4:40.58 | 244147 | 265204
13 | 58:56.05 | 0:38.67 | 265205 | 268121
14 | 59:34.72 | 1:11.05 | 268122 | 273451
15 | 60:46.02 | 0:59.15 | 273452 | 277891
16 | 61:45.17 | 1:03.25 | 277892 | 282641
17 | 62:48.42 | 1:16.40 | 282642 | 288381


Track 1

Peak level 33.8 %
Extraction speed 7.7 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 5F883763
Copy CRC 5F883763
Copy OK

Track 2

Peak level 19.1 %
Extraction speed 9.4 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 1BD2A231
Copy CRC 1BD2A231
Copy OK

Track 3

Peak level 85.9 %
Extraction speed 10.4 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 49690297
Copy CRC 49690297
Copy OK

Track 4

Peak level 65.8 %
Extraction speed 10.5 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 1E203610
Copy CRC 1E203610
Copy OK

Track 5

Peak level 41.0 %
Extraction speed 10.5 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 382733AE
Copy CRC 382733AE
Copy OK

Track 6

Peak level 40.5 %
Extraction speed 11.0 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 4248872A
Copy CRC 4248872A
Copy OK

Track 7

Peak level 33.8 %
Extraction speed 11.0 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 1DC6009F
Copy CRC 1DC6009F
Copy OK

Track 8

Peak level 62.0 %
Extraction speed 11.1 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC F5B189C3
Copy CRC F5B189C3
Copy OK

Track 9

Peak level 43.5 %
Extraction speed 10.2 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC F1CC61DD
Copy CRC F1CC61DD
Copy OK

Track 10

Peak level 43.4 %
Extraction speed 10.6 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC E7F864B3
Copy CRC E7F864B3
Copy OK

Track 11

Peak level 92.2 %
Extraction speed 11.6 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 3ED7AE69
Copy CRC 3ED7AE69
Copy OK

Track 12

Peak level 52.5 %
Extraction speed 12.3 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC A82A9FDC
Copy CRC A82A9FDC
Copy OK

Track 13

Peak level 14.5 %
Extraction speed 5.2 X
Track quality 99.4 %
Test CRC ECCA7311
Copy CRC ECCA7311
Copy OK

Track 14

Peak level 17.4 %
Extraction speed 7.1 X
Track quality 99.7 %
Test CRC ABAD8252
Copy CRC ABAD8252
Copy OK

Track 15

Peak level 22.3 %
Extraction speed 10.7 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC CC64A95F
Copy CRC CC64A95F
Copy OK

Track 16

Peak level 17.3 %
Extraction speed 10.8 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 2FA54800
Copy CRC 2FA54800
Copy OK

Track 17

Peak level 15.1 %
Extraction speed 11.7 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 1BAEC2EE
Copy CRC 1BAEC2EE
Copy OK

No errors occurred

CODE
Exact Audio Copy V1.0 beta 1 from 15. November 2010

Used drive : Optiarc DVD RW AD-7240S Adapter: 0 ID: 1

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : No
Make use of C2 pointers : Yes

Combined read/write offset correction : 0
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : No
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling : Appended to previous track

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
Sample format : 44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 0:00.00 | 18:15.47 | 0 | 82171
2 | 18:15.47 | 9:05.38 | 82172 | 123084
3 | 27:21.10 | 11:08.37 | 123085 | 173221
4 | 38:29.47 | 2:43.00 | 173222 | 185446
5 | 41:12.47 | 1:54.28 | 185447 | 194024
6 | 43:07.00 | 2:08.67 | 194025 | 203691
7 | 45:15.67 | 2:26.45 | 203692 | 214686
8 | 47:42.37 | 1:32.18 | 214687 | 221604
9 | 49:14.55 | 0:59.37 | 221605 | 226066
10 | 50:14.17 | 1:24.73 | 226067 | 232439
11 | 51:39.15 | 2:36.07 | 232440 | 244146
12 | 54:15.22 | 4:40.58 | 244147 | 265204
13 | 58:56.05 | 0:38.67 | 265205 | 268121
14 | 59:34.72 | 1:11.05 | 268122 | 273451
15 | 60:46.02 | 0:59.15 | 273452 | 277891
16 | 61:45.17 | 1:03.25 | 277892 | 282641
17 | 62:48.42 | 1:16.40 | 282642 | 288381


Track 1

Pre-gap length 0:00:02.00

Peak level 33.8 %
Extraction speed 21.9 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 79D2EE8C
Copy CRC 79D2EE8C
Copy OK

Track 2

Pre-gap length 0:00:06.35

Peak level 19.1 %
Extraction speed 27.3 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 4339CA92
Copy CRC 4339CA92
Copy OK

Track 3

Pre-gap length 0:00:03.35

Peak level 85.9 %
Extraction speed 30.6 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 0BDED5CA
Copy CRC 0BDED5CA
Copy OK

Track 4

Pre-gap length 0:00:00.50

Peak level 65.8 %
Extraction speed 32.1 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC F6552473
Copy CRC F6552473
Copy OK

Track 5

Pre-gap length 0:00:02.17

Peak level 41.0 %
Extraction speed 29.5 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 83376822
Copy CRC 83376822
Copy OK

Track 6

Pre-gap length 0:00:03.65

Peak level 40.5 %
Extraction speed 32.0 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC A2BB02F4
Copy CRC A2BB02F4
Copy OK

Track 7

Pre-gap length 0:00:00.40

Peak level 33.8 %
Extraction speed 31.3 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC C750098C
Copy CRC C750098C
Copy OK

Track 8

Pre-gap length 0:00:03.10

Peak level 62.0 %
Extraction speed 33.5 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 9840D67D
Copy CRC 9840D67D
Copy OK

Track 9

Pre-gap length 0:00:02.25

Peak level 43.5 %
Extraction speed 28.3 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC F86BC747
Copy CRC F86BC747
Copy OK

Track 10

Pre-gap length 0:00:03.70

Peak level 43.4 %
Extraction speed 30.3 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC CA0D0958
Copy CRC CA0D0958
Copy OK

Track 11

Pre-gap length 0:00:02.65

Peak level 92.2 %
Extraction speed 33.3 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 2758FF4F
Copy CRC 2758FF4F
Copy OK

Track 12

Pre-gap length 0:00:02.22

Peak level 52.5 %
Extraction speed 35.4 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC CFA0A6CE
Copy CRC CFA0A6CE
Copy OK

Track 13

Pre-gap length 0:00:01.73

Peak level 14.5 %
Extraction speed 7.7 X
Track quality 99.4 %
Test CRC 25DB8A75
Copy CRC 25DB8A75
Copy OK

Track 14

Pre-gap length 0:00:01.45

Peak level 17.4 %
Extraction speed 30.1 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 2BE0CBED
Copy CRC 2BE0CBED
Copy OK

Track 15

Pre-gap length 0:00:01.62

Peak level 22.3 %
Extraction speed 28.0 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 037B1C36
Copy CRC 037B1C36
Copy OK

Track 16

Pre-gap length 0:00:00.50

Peak level 17.3 %
Extraction speed 28.5 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC A336132B
Copy CRC A336132B
Copy OK

Track 17

Pre-gap length 0:00:01.20

Peak level 15.1 %
Extraction speed 36.9 X
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 5F06396F
Copy CRC 5F06396F
Copy OK

No errors occurred


This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 29 2011, 00:50
Reason for edit: code -> codeBOX, removed added tabs. Please try not to hog the screen next time, ok?
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greynol
post Mar 29 2011, 00:56
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Here's your problem:

Null samples used in CRC calculations : No

!!!!!!!!!!!

...and odyssey was right as well:
QUOTE (odyssey @ Mar 28 2011, 01:39) *
If your drives are configured correctly, correcting the different offsets, they should rip the same data with same CRC.
...though I don't care so much that your drives aren't calibrated to one another. You were misled into thinking you had tracks that were ripped the same because of the no use of null samples in CRC calculations setting. It's a horrible option and should be removed from EAC; that the default is checked makes it even worse!

Let this thread serve as a warning to anyone who suggests omitting null samples from CRC calculations is a good thing because it allows you to compare rips with different offsets. It doesn't work all that well, now does it?!?

This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 29 2011, 01:24


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HTS
post Mar 29 2011, 03:22
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What can I do about the different offsets? Your wiki has this to say about Accuraterip

QUOTE
Accuracy

Determining the actual read offset of a drive is difficult. The measurements Andre Wiethoff used to calibrate the AccurateRip database were challenged in late 2006, and strong evidence was presented to support a claim that the reference is actually off by 30 samples. That is, the offsets are 30 samples too low, or the correction values are 30 samples too high, however you want to look at it. Weithoff feels that it's too late to change to a different calibration now that the database is populated.
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greynol
post Mar 29 2011, 04:08
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Wow, that gives the impression that Andre Wiethoff was responsible for AccurateRip which is completely wrong.

Anyway, don't worry about it, just let AccurateRip do its thing.

This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 29 2011, 04:11


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HTS
post Mar 30 2011, 03:15
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QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 28 2011, 09:04) *
QUOTE (odyssey @ Mar 28 2011, 01:39) *
I have to state that under certain very uncommon and rare circumstances, this may not be true.

In the case drives with different offsets which cannot overread (or one can overread and the other cannot), this is not at all uncommon. This only affects either the first and/or last tracks on a disc, however.

It just happened to one of the CDs. Only the last track got returned with different crcs. What can I do in this case?
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greynol
post Mar 30 2011, 08:17
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Nothing. Again, don't worry about it.


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HTS
post Mar 30 2011, 08:47
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QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 30 2011, 03:17) *
Nothing. Again, don't worry about it.

So are both of them considered equally perfect? So I can just arbitrarily pick the rip from one drive and archive that?
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odyssey
post Mar 30 2011, 09:39
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QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 28 2011, 14:04) *
QUOTE (odyssey @ Mar 28 2011, 01:39) *
I have to state that under certain very uncommon and rare circumstances, this may not be true.

In the case drives with different offsets which cannot overread (or one can overread and the other cannot), this is not at all uncommon. This only affects either the first and/or last tracks on a disc, however.

No that's true, but then I could go on with all the possibilities, and it didn't sound like it was only the first and last track.

Anyway, some great advice you gave there with the settings! smile.gif


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HTS
post Mar 30 2011, 09:53
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When EAC says that "there were errors", it doesn't tell you where the errors were at if you close the program. Is it possible for the errors during read/write to be consistent? In other words, on the log file they show identical CRC values, but both of them were consistently wrong.

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greynol
post Mar 30 2011, 17:54
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If this is what I think you're asking, yes, it is possible to get test and copy CRCs that match but still have an error. When you get this with two dissimilar drives it becomes less likely. When you get a positive match from AccurateRip it is even less likely still, unless your disc has copy protection or was subject to a consistent manufacturing defect.


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HTS
post Mar 30 2011, 23:47
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This is all for Audio CDs. What about file CDs (just disks with sound files on them and you drag them into your hdd)?
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db1989
post Mar 30 2011, 23:50
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Just drag the files as you have been doing. Data CDs have much better error checking/correction (by necessity), so no double-checking is needed unless the CD (or drive) are badly damaged/defective; and they have no issues with offsets.

This post has been edited by dv1989: Mar 30 2011, 23:56
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HTS
post Mar 31 2011, 00:41
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Mar 30 2011, 18:50) *
Just drag the files as you have been doing. Data CDs have much better error checking/correction (by necessity), so no double-checking is needed unless the CD (or drive) are badly damaged/defective; and they have no issues with offsets.

What about storing the files you have already copied? Do you have to use some archiving program (like winrar) to implement error checking and recovery capabilities? Do raw wav files sitting in folders have error checking/reporting features?
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greynol
post Mar 31 2011, 01:53
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This has gotten too far off-topic.

Discussion closed.


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