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R128 versus ReplayGain, The cage match begins here.
Canar
post Jan 26 2011, 19:35
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Now that kode54 has released his lovely scanner for foobar2000, I've been playing around with the two, trying to come up with some subjective characteristics that RG and R128 handle differently.

The first big thing is sub-bass! RG routinely rates sub-bass-heavy music as quieter than R128. This makes sense, given that RG is driven by equal-loudness contours. I wonder about the validity in the context of the electronic dance music scene, however. Though the equal loudness contours are probably accurate for pure audibility, the reality is that sub-bass is perceptible in more ways than just listening!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_IVmxKKdw -- This track, one of my favourites of 2010, has nearly 4dB difference between R128 and RG. I'm pretty confident it's due to the difference in the way the two algorithms perceive bass. The track is driven by a deep sub-bass melody with minimal high-frequency content.

I know that this is a quick and dirty "analysis", but I wanted to open the floor for people doing comparisons between the two. I'm quite excited to see some competition in this field.

In general, the two algorithms seem to be very strongly correlated. Differences of <1dB are pretty much routine on the music I've tested so far.

This post has been edited by Canar: Jan 26 2011, 19:39


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carpman
post Feb 7 2011, 06:26
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I doubt romor is comparing 2 versions of the same song (Song A-RG vs. Song A-R128); rather he's saying R128 overly attenuates that genre so it doesn't fit so well with other songs in his collection that R128 has processed.

Afterall that's the purpose of equal perceptual loudness (R128 and ReplayGain). romor's statement seems a fair one to me.

C.


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Notat
post Feb 7 2011, 17:05
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QUOTE (carpman @ Feb 6 2011, 22:26) *
I doubt romor is comparing 2 versions of the same song (Song A-RG vs. Song A-R128); rather he's saying R128 overly attenuates that genre so it doesn't fit so well with other songs in his collection that R128 has processed.

Afterall that's the purpose of equal perceptual loudness (R128 and ReplayGain). romor's statement seems a fair one to me.

I did not mean to be flip with my comment. Perhaps I was a bit terse. Romor said he preferred the RG normalized (louder) version. It doesn't matter if this is in the context of comparison to the R128 normalized (quieter) version or in the context of a play list of Rolling Stones hits. Verifying a model is about matching levels not about preference. A reasonable way to assess these models is described in the Swedish Radio study. You switch between a test sample and reference sample and adjust a fader until the two have the same apparent loudness.
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carpman
post Feb 8 2011, 00:50
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QUOTE (Notat @ Feb 7 2011, 16:05) *
You switch between a test sample and reference sample and adjust a fader until the two have the same apparent loudness.

Yes, and if one was "way too attenuated to my ears" then I'd naturally "prefer" the one that was not, because the model that is "way too attenuated to my ears" is failing.

No big deal, but silly to focus on "prefer" and leave out the valid reason for the preference. Which is inherently a fair criticism of one (i.e. R128) of the two models being tested.

QUOTE (jangk @ Feb 7 2011, 06:27) *
QUOTE (romor @ Feb 5 2011, 17:54) *
R128 is way too attenuated to my ears

Please use your Volume Knob smile.gif

Ditto.

C.


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Posts in this topic
- Canar   R128 versus ReplayGain   Jan 26 2011, 19:35
- - benski   I recently did a large analysis on a 45,000 track ...   Jan 26 2011, 19:44
- - lvqcl   My test: (2124 tracks/175 albums) Nanowar of St...   Jan 26 2011, 20:01
|- - GLiBERN   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Jan 26 2011, 21:01) My tes...   Jun 18 2011, 18:31
- - Canar   I'm not sure I'd use the word "concer...   Jan 26 2011, 20:01
- - lvqcl   From my collection of problem samples: xdrums: R1...   Jan 27 2011, 01:12
- - 2Bdecided   The couple of studies posted in the other thread s...   Jan 27 2011, 11:28
- - romor   Here are some selected releases comparison results...   Feb 3 2011, 17:09
- - Fandango   I currently have no evidence nor did I do any comp...   Feb 4 2011, 00:25
- - romor   Today I noticed an older release from Alva Noto an...   Feb 5 2011, 16:17
- - markanini   Hmm, 21.17 dB...sounds like a record.   Feb 5 2011, 16:28
- - Notat   Has anyone listened to these tracks to try and det...   Feb 5 2011, 17:06
|- - romor   I uploaded 30s FLAC for Ryoji Ikeda and unfortunat...   Feb 5 2011, 17:54
|- - Case   QUOTE (romor @ Feb 5 2011, 18:54) I uploa...   Feb 6 2011, 10:19
|- - Notat   QUOTE (romor @ Feb 5 2011, 09:54) I prefe...   Feb 7 2011, 06:09
|- - jangk   QUOTE (romor @ Feb 5 2011, 17:54) R128 is...   Feb 7 2011, 07:27
- - SamDeRe81   Interesting! So a new audio analysis utility i...   Feb 5 2011, 17:10
|- - Soap   QUOTE (SamDeRe81 @ Feb 5 2011, 11:10) Int...   Feb 5 2011, 17:28
- - romor   QUOTE (romor @ Feb 5 2011, 17:54) R128 is...   Feb 6 2011, 16:38
- - SamDeRe81   This is great, I'm definitely going to be usin...   Feb 7 2011, 03:42
- - carpman   I doubt romor is comparing 2 versions of the same ...   Feb 7 2011, 06:26
|- - Notat   QUOTE (carpman @ Feb 6 2011, 22:26) I dou...   Feb 7 2011, 17:05
|- - carpman   QUOTE (Notat @ Feb 7 2011, 16:05) You swi...   Feb 8 2011, 00:50
- - Notat   I've listened to your samples. Thanks for post...   Feb 7 2011, 16:56
- - Gecko   I rescanned my lossless collection. EBU R128 data ...   Jul 4 2011, 20:03


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