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Wavpack Lossy Quality, As good as OGG, MPC or AAC?
Lev
post Apr 17 2003, 11:59
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I note that a certain pet bird has the signature line
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WavPack (352/448 kbps) lossy for HQ lossy encodings and transcoding
LAME 3.90.2 (by Dibrom) --alt-preset extreme -Z --lowpass 21 or --alt-preset insane --lowpass 21 for my mp3s
MP2 384 kbps stereo for the classical music on my portable
MusePack 1.15r --insane --xlevel for archiving on CDs


Is he right in using WavPack, as opposed to MPC?

Something tells me the higher the bitrate, the more he likes it - There isn't an MP2 encoder as well tuned as Lame, and cranking the bitrate up to 384 isnt going to make the encoder more 'tuned'. And MPC insane / MP3 APX are virtually unnecessary overkills too; YMMV.


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den
post Apr 26 2003, 10:16
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@HansHeijden
Thanks for making me aware of the lossy ape "beta", and the discussion around it a couple of years ago. I was very interested, and as I don't have Monkey's installed, I fired this one up and also checked out bryant's furious sample. I agree that it certainly gets the sample more "correct" than Wavpack. I could still ABX the Monkey's lossy version 10/10, but it was very close, and I was mainly sensing different levels of background noise, rather than artifacts in the "music" itself. I also tried Wavpack lossy at 400 kbit to more closely match bitrates, and it was much better than at 320, but not as close as Monkey's.

@bryant
Thanks for your comments about wavpack's performance and the sample itself. It was good to check out a sample that does trip it up so that I can be aware of potential shortcomings in Wavpack lossy.

Until now, I've been sticking to true stereo for lossy encodes when I am not keeping the correction file, because I was under the impression that the joint stereo may cause the odd problem. (I use Speek's front end with the high quality option checked, but as far as I know, it is not using the joint stereo switch.) If there was an easy way to make the joint stereo a safe joint stereo, without huge effort on your behalf, it sounds like a good idea. Otherwise, I might start trying some joint stereo encodes and see what happens. I've been very happy with the results so far though as it is. It's just that after checking out your furious sample, I'm starting to wonder about using joint stereo. Can you elaborate more on how risky it is? blink.gif

@2Bdecided
You hit the nail on the head with regards to why I think Wavpack lossy has some potential. The additional noise, or lower S/N is still very reasonable, and I would much prefer a slight increase in background noise if the recording itself is still of "high quality" whatever that means, and less or no artifacts. When it's music you don't know intimately, the odd artifact is no big deal, but when you know the music shouldn't sound like what you are hearing, it get starts to get in the way of enjoying the music. mad.gif

The huge benefit to me has been it's transcoding into ATRAC3 performance. Wavpack kills the other perceptual codecs consistently for this, and Delirium's explanation makes sense.

I'm going to check out this other sample of guruboolez out of interest now.

Den.

PS: @bryant, Sorry to drag you into the world of lossy, but I can't seeing this being your Vietnam somehow. Even if you don't develop this any further, I suspect you don't have much to worry about laugh.gif


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Posts in this topic
- Lev   Wavpack Lossy Quality   Apr 17 2003, 11:59
- - budgie   Lev: Hahaha... you are very, but very witty pet. ...   Apr 17 2003, 12:03
- - Garf   I don't know - what MP2 encoder do you use and...   Apr 17 2003, 12:14
- - Jan S.   First of all a lowpass at 21KHz is insane. Most mo...   Apr 17 2003, 12:30
- - westgroveg   Very original, I don't ever recall some one st...   Apr 17 2003, 12:33
- - Lev   QUOTE The normal lowpass the presets use should be...   Apr 17 2003, 12:38
- - Garf   QUOTE (westgroveg @ Apr 17 2003 - 01:33 PM)Ed...   Apr 17 2003, 12:50
- - Lev   QUOTE It will be interesting to see the results MP...   Apr 17 2003, 13:54
- - budgie   QUOTE (Jan S. @ Apr 17 2003 - 03:30 AM)First ...   Apr 17 2003, 14:22
- - budgie   QUOTE (westgroveg @ Apr 17 2003 - 03:33 AM)It...   Apr 17 2003, 14:34
- - Lev   QUOTE Most modern crappy-shitty CD players maybe c...   Apr 17 2003, 14:57
- - Garf   QUOTE Most modern crappy-shitty CD players maybe c...   Apr 17 2003, 15:02
- - Garf   Specifically: QUOTE Once the quality exceeds what...   Apr 17 2003, 15:10
- - budgie   QUOTE (Lev @ Apr 17 2003 - 05:57 AM)--bah.....   Apr 17 2003, 15:11
- - Lev   QUOTE Stop repeat BS you read here and there on th...   Apr 17 2003, 15:17
- - Garf   QUOTE Dear Lev, it really doesn't matter, if y...   Apr 17 2003, 15:18
- - budgie   Garf: QUOTE Last I looked, MPC at standard level ...   Apr 17 2003, 15:35
- - Garf   QUOTE If you read carefully, I wrote (Not in the s...   Apr 17 2003, 15:47
- - Garf   QUOTE I tested a lot with Vorbis 1.0 at -q4 and th...   Apr 17 2003, 15:51
- - Lev   QUOTE Why was SACD or DVD-A developed? Companies a...   Apr 17 2003, 15:53
- - westgroveg   I may be wrong but doesn't SACD & DVD-A al...   Apr 17 2003, 16:11
- - guruboolez   And better spatial restitution (multichannel)   Apr 17 2003, 16:14
- - Garf   QUOTE I may be wrong but doesn't SACD & DV...   Apr 17 2003, 16:19
- - Ardax   QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 17 2003 - 11:19 AM)QUOTE E...   Apr 17 2003, 16:32
- - Messer   QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 17 2003 - 03:47 PM)But you ...   Apr 17 2003, 17:28
- - bryant   QUOTE (Lev @ Apr 17 2003 - 03:38 AM)Where can...   Apr 17 2003, 18:33
- - john33   QUOTE (Lev @ Apr 17 2003 - 11:38 AM)Where can...   Apr 17 2003, 19:58
- - floyd   Anyone else sick of of sigs with lists of favorite...   Apr 17 2003, 21:46
- - Mac   Back to the original question... how good is Wavpa...   Apr 17 2003, 22:29
- - den   @floyd I know what you are saying, but I find havi...   Apr 18 2003, 05:10
- - den   Me again. I've been doing some further testin...   Apr 18 2003, 08:39
- - JohnV   Thanks for the interesting reports, den.   Apr 18 2003, 09:12
- - rjamorim   I thank you too. I find listening tests with WavPa...   Apr 18 2003, 17:28
- - den   OK, some follow up comments about this rather uniq...   Apr 21 2003, 11:14
- - Peter Harris   QUOTE (den @ Apr 21 2003 - 05:14 AM)1. Origin...   Apr 21 2003, 17:41
- - Moneo   I did a little test to see how wavpack hybride mod...   Apr 21 2003, 18:09
- - rjamorim   I would believe Den used settings where codecs bec...   Apr 21 2003, 18:10
- - sony666   QUOTE (Peter Harris @ Apr 21 2003 - 05:41 PM)...   Apr 21 2003, 18:11
- - rjamorim   @moneo: have you tried doing the inverse with APE+...   Apr 21 2003, 18:15
- - Moneo   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 21 2003 - 06:15 PM)have...   Apr 21 2003, 19:34
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Moneo @ Apr 21 2003 - 03:34 PM)rjamori...   Apr 21 2003, 22:22
- - den   Just to clarify a few things - Yes, I chose the m...   Apr 21 2003, 22:54
- - den   OK, just snuck in two more test tracks, the same s...   Apr 22 2003, 01:40
- - rjamorim   Great! Truly great. Thanks a lot for your test...   Apr 22 2003, 01:49
- - den   @Moneo Sorry for not respondng earlier. I probabl...   Apr 22 2003, 05:42
- - bryant   QUOTE (den @ Apr 21 2003 - 01:54 PM)Wavpack d...   Apr 22 2003, 05:55
- - hans-jürgen   QUOTE (den @ Apr 22 2003 - 06:42 AM)As far as...   Apr 22 2003, 14:22
- - den   hans-jürgen wrote QUOTE I don't mean to spoil ...   Apr 22 2003, 14:56
- - Mac   I have wanted to test this out myself, but sadly I...   Apr 22 2003, 15:43
- - den   Mac, I can't comment on the Winamp plug-in as...   Apr 22 2003, 16:06
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (den @ Apr 22 2003 - 12:06 PM)Very conv...   Apr 22 2003, 16:15
- - den   @ rjamorim 1. As far as I can tell, you can't...   Apr 23 2003, 02:05
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (den @ Apr 22 2003 - 10:05 PM)2. I foll...   Apr 23 2003, 02:16
- - den   I do know a few things about C programming actuall...   Apr 23 2003, 04:37
- - KikeG   Den, I suggest that if you do further testing, you...   Apr 23 2003, 08:04
- - den   Thanks KikeG. Apart from the tests I've poste...   Apr 23 2003, 08:38
- - Lev   Just Failed to ABX WavPack @ 320 with flying colou...   Apr 23 2003, 21:41
- - den   QUOTE I had absolutely no idea what I was looking ...   Apr 24 2003, 01:51
- - den   I couldn't resist trying wavpack with some of ...   Apr 25 2003, 01:22
- - guruboolez   Tried with castanet2.wav file : 255 kbps (mesure...   Apr 25 2003, 02:56
- - den   Thanks for your post guruboolez. It's good to...   Apr 25 2003, 03:16
- - Delirium   Thanks for the results; they're very interesti...   Apr 25 2003, 04:15
- - budgie   I think it's really good that I could contribu...   Apr 25 2003, 12:39
- - 2Bdecided   This is a very interesting thread. One interesting...   Apr 25 2003, 14:11
- - Garf   Just for the record, shorten has a lossy mode too.   Apr 25 2003, 14:39
- - HansHeijden   Here is that tread again David, with posts about l...   Apr 25 2003, 15:02
- - Garf   QUOTE (den @ Apr 25 2003 - 02:22 AM)I'm t...   Apr 25 2003, 15:29
- - Garf   QUOTE (budgie @ Apr 25 2003 - 01:39 PM), but ...   Apr 25 2003, 15:36
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (HansHeijden @ Apr 25 2003 - 02:02 PM)H...   Apr 25 2003, 15:47
- - budgie   QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 25 2003 - 06:36 AM)It's...   Apr 25 2003, 15:53
- - HansHeijden   Hmm, it seems the lossy ape dll (from may 2001, ve...   Apr 25 2003, 19:07
- - JohnV   QUOTE (budgie @ Apr 25 2003 - 02:39 PM)For my...   Apr 25 2003, 19:19
- - bryant   First of all, I'd like to thank everyone who h...   Apr 25 2003, 20:14
- - guruboolez   QUOTE (bryant @ Apr 25 2003 - 08:14 PM)Also, ...   Apr 25 2003, 20:45
- - HansHeijden   Bryant, I made a lossy ape of your sample, and mad...   Apr 25 2003, 20:55
- - JohnV   LOL.. now bryant is dragged to the lossy quality b...   Apr 25 2003, 21:44
- - HansHeijden   Bryant, the -j1 switch you mention indeed gives mu...   Apr 25 2003, 22:47
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (budgie @ Apr 25 2003 - 07:53 AM)QUOTE ...   Apr 26 2003, 00:14
- - bryant   Guruboolez: I tried to find that sample but could...   Apr 26 2003, 00:49
- - guruboolez   Here is the sample, compressed by a simple but imp...   Apr 26 2003, 01:04
- - den   @HansHeijden Thanks for making me aware of the los...   Apr 26 2003, 10:16
- - den   Just did a quick and dirty ABX test of wavpack los...   Apr 26 2003, 10:51
- - bryant   Guruboolez: Thanks for the sample. I didn't r...   Apr 28 2003, 21:19
- - den   Thanks for the info bryant. I concur that the joi...   Apr 29 2003, 01:23


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