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Wavpack Lossy Quality, As good as OGG, MPC or AAC?
Lev
post Apr 17 2003, 11:59
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I note that a certain pet bird has the signature line
QUOTE
WavPack (352/448 kbps) lossy for HQ lossy encodings and transcoding
LAME 3.90.2 (by Dibrom) --alt-preset extreme -Z --lowpass 21 or --alt-preset insane --lowpass 21 for my mp3s
MP2 384 kbps stereo for the classical music on my portable
MusePack 1.15r --insane --xlevel for archiving on CDs


Is he right in using WavPack, as opposed to MPC?

Something tells me the higher the bitrate, the more he likes it - There isn't an MP2 encoder as well tuned as Lame, and cranking the bitrate up to 384 isnt going to make the encoder more 'tuned'. And MPC insane / MP3 APX are virtually unnecessary overkills too; YMMV.


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den
post Apr 18 2003, 05:10
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@floyd
I know what you are saying, but I find having the sigs useful to see what others are trying. If it wasn't for these sigs, I wouldn't have tried Vorbis believe it or not... Also thanks to budgie, I was also enticed to try Wavpack. dry.gif

@everyone else
I think every forum needs a budgie. Otherwise people tend to get into the forum's main groove, and start answering every newbie inquiry with the standard answer. You might not agree with budgie and sometimes budgie posts opinions without backing it up, but the posts make you think outside the square you live in. wink.gif

@mac and others who are interested.
Curiosity killed this cat, so I dug up the latest wavpack and did some WinABX tests. I don't think of myself as having golden ears (I love Minidisc afterall!), but I can often pick out Ogg Vorbis q6, LAME aps and very occasionally fluke ABXing MPC q5 with my normal music, 70-90's rock/pop stuff. I've never tried the problem samples.

I tried the first 10 seconds of Mandela Day - Simple Minds from their Street Fighting Years CD. With LAME aps and Ogg Vorbis 1.0 q6 I can get this virtually everytime. Nothing major, just minor swirliness in some of the piano chords and something in the percussion not being quite as sharp., but it's very close. MPC q5 I'm usually just guessing!

With Wavpack 256 kbit lossy, I hit 15/15. Wavpack 320 kbit lossy, I hit 12/15. Wavpack 352 kbit lossy, I hit 8/15 initially and then got 10/15. The thing is though, I'm not hearing significant problems at any of these rates, the main thing I'm picking up is background hiss. It's slightly more pronounced in the Wavpack version, and it get's louder as you go down in bit rate. blink.gif

I tried 128 kbit without ABXing, and in this small segment, there were no killer artefacts that I could detect without concentrating. In comparison MP3 and Vorbis at these bitrates introduce an obvious wateryness in the piano stabs, and the percussion starts to smear.

What does this all mean? Maybe there is another option out there for archiving your CDs. Go Wavpack hybrid at whatever bitrate you can afford/put up with, keep the .wv file on your harddisk for listening, the odd transcode (in my case record to MD) and keep the .wvc (correction) files on CDRs. Then you have a set of reasonable quality lossy files for everyday use, and the same music in lossless when you need to do a serious transcode, or want the original wav file...

As I said, I don't have golden ears, and would love to read the opinions of some of the other members out there...

I can't easily post my samples for the time being, but perhaps some else can try some of their own music and post their thoughts...

Den

Editted to change second lossy to lossless in third last paragraph (19/4/2003)

This post has been edited by den: Apr 19 2003, 14:03


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Posts in this topic
- Lev   Wavpack Lossy Quality   Apr 17 2003, 11:59
- - budgie   Lev: Hahaha... you are very, but very witty pet. ...   Apr 17 2003, 12:03
- - Garf   I don't know - what MP2 encoder do you use and...   Apr 17 2003, 12:14
- - Jan S.   First of all a lowpass at 21KHz is insane. Most mo...   Apr 17 2003, 12:30
- - westgroveg   Very original, I don't ever recall some one st...   Apr 17 2003, 12:33
- - Lev   QUOTE The normal lowpass the presets use should be...   Apr 17 2003, 12:38
- - Garf   QUOTE (westgroveg @ Apr 17 2003 - 01:33 PM)Ed...   Apr 17 2003, 12:50
- - Lev   QUOTE It will be interesting to see the results MP...   Apr 17 2003, 13:54
- - budgie   QUOTE (Jan S. @ Apr 17 2003 - 03:30 AM)First ...   Apr 17 2003, 14:22
- - budgie   QUOTE (westgroveg @ Apr 17 2003 - 03:33 AM)It...   Apr 17 2003, 14:34
- - Lev   QUOTE Most modern crappy-shitty CD players maybe c...   Apr 17 2003, 14:57
- - Garf   QUOTE Most modern crappy-shitty CD players maybe c...   Apr 17 2003, 15:02
- - Garf   Specifically: QUOTE Once the quality exceeds what...   Apr 17 2003, 15:10
- - budgie   QUOTE (Lev @ Apr 17 2003 - 05:57 AM)--bah.....   Apr 17 2003, 15:11
- - Lev   QUOTE Stop repeat BS you read here and there on th...   Apr 17 2003, 15:17
- - Garf   QUOTE Dear Lev, it really doesn't matter, if y...   Apr 17 2003, 15:18
- - budgie   Garf: QUOTE Last I looked, MPC at standard level ...   Apr 17 2003, 15:35
- - Garf   QUOTE If you read carefully, I wrote (Not in the s...   Apr 17 2003, 15:47
- - Garf   QUOTE I tested a lot with Vorbis 1.0 at -q4 and th...   Apr 17 2003, 15:51
- - Lev   QUOTE Why was SACD or DVD-A developed? Companies a...   Apr 17 2003, 15:53
- - westgroveg   I may be wrong but doesn't SACD & DVD-A al...   Apr 17 2003, 16:11
- - guruboolez   And better spatial restitution (multichannel)   Apr 17 2003, 16:14
- - Garf   QUOTE I may be wrong but doesn't SACD & DV...   Apr 17 2003, 16:19
- - Ardax   QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 17 2003 - 11:19 AM)QUOTE E...   Apr 17 2003, 16:32
- - Messer   QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 17 2003 - 03:47 PM)But you ...   Apr 17 2003, 17:28
- - bryant   QUOTE (Lev @ Apr 17 2003 - 03:38 AM)Where can...   Apr 17 2003, 18:33
- - john33   QUOTE (Lev @ Apr 17 2003 - 11:38 AM)Where can...   Apr 17 2003, 19:58
- - floyd   Anyone else sick of of sigs with lists of favorite...   Apr 17 2003, 21:46
- - Mac   Back to the original question... how good is Wavpa...   Apr 17 2003, 22:29
- - den   @floyd I know what you are saying, but I find havi...   Apr 18 2003, 05:10
- - den   Me again. I've been doing some further testin...   Apr 18 2003, 08:39
- - JohnV   Thanks for the interesting reports, den.   Apr 18 2003, 09:12
- - rjamorim   I thank you too. I find listening tests with WavPa...   Apr 18 2003, 17:28
- - den   OK, some follow up comments about this rather uniq...   Apr 21 2003, 11:14
- - Peter Harris   QUOTE (den @ Apr 21 2003 - 05:14 AM)1. Origin...   Apr 21 2003, 17:41
- - Moneo   I did a little test to see how wavpack hybride mod...   Apr 21 2003, 18:09
- - rjamorim   I would believe Den used settings where codecs bec...   Apr 21 2003, 18:10
- - sony666   QUOTE (Peter Harris @ Apr 21 2003 - 05:41 PM)...   Apr 21 2003, 18:11
- - rjamorim   @moneo: have you tried doing the inverse with APE+...   Apr 21 2003, 18:15
- - Moneo   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 21 2003 - 06:15 PM)have...   Apr 21 2003, 19:34
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Moneo @ Apr 21 2003 - 03:34 PM)rjamori...   Apr 21 2003, 22:22
- - den   Just to clarify a few things - Yes, I chose the m...   Apr 21 2003, 22:54
- - den   OK, just snuck in two more test tracks, the same s...   Apr 22 2003, 01:40
- - rjamorim   Great! Truly great. Thanks a lot for your test...   Apr 22 2003, 01:49
- - den   @Moneo Sorry for not respondng earlier. I probabl...   Apr 22 2003, 05:42
- - bryant   QUOTE (den @ Apr 21 2003 - 01:54 PM)Wavpack d...   Apr 22 2003, 05:55
- - hans-jürgen   QUOTE (den @ Apr 22 2003 - 06:42 AM)As far as...   Apr 22 2003, 14:22
- - den   hans-jürgen wrote QUOTE I don't mean to spoil ...   Apr 22 2003, 14:56
- - Mac   I have wanted to test this out myself, but sadly I...   Apr 22 2003, 15:43
- - den   Mac, I can't comment on the Winamp plug-in as...   Apr 22 2003, 16:06
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (den @ Apr 22 2003 - 12:06 PM)Very conv...   Apr 22 2003, 16:15
- - den   @ rjamorim 1. As far as I can tell, you can't...   Apr 23 2003, 02:05
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (den @ Apr 22 2003 - 10:05 PM)2. I foll...   Apr 23 2003, 02:16
- - den   I do know a few things about C programming actuall...   Apr 23 2003, 04:37
- - KikeG   Den, I suggest that if you do further testing, you...   Apr 23 2003, 08:04
- - den   Thanks KikeG. Apart from the tests I've poste...   Apr 23 2003, 08:38
- - Lev   Just Failed to ABX WavPack @ 320 with flying colou...   Apr 23 2003, 21:41
- - den   QUOTE I had absolutely no idea what I was looking ...   Apr 24 2003, 01:51
- - den   I couldn't resist trying wavpack with some of ...   Apr 25 2003, 01:22
- - guruboolez   Tried with castanet2.wav file : 255 kbps (mesure...   Apr 25 2003, 02:56
- - den   Thanks for your post guruboolez. It's good to...   Apr 25 2003, 03:16
- - Delirium   Thanks for the results; they're very interesti...   Apr 25 2003, 04:15
- - budgie   I think it's really good that I could contribu...   Apr 25 2003, 12:39
- - 2Bdecided   This is a very interesting thread. One interesting...   Apr 25 2003, 14:11
- - Garf   Just for the record, shorten has a lossy mode too.   Apr 25 2003, 14:39
- - HansHeijden   Here is that tread again David, with posts about l...   Apr 25 2003, 15:02
- - Garf   QUOTE (den @ Apr 25 2003 - 02:22 AM)I'm t...   Apr 25 2003, 15:29
- - Garf   QUOTE (budgie @ Apr 25 2003 - 01:39 PM), but ...   Apr 25 2003, 15:36
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (HansHeijden @ Apr 25 2003 - 02:02 PM)H...   Apr 25 2003, 15:47
- - budgie   QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 25 2003 - 06:36 AM)It's...   Apr 25 2003, 15:53
- - HansHeijden   Hmm, it seems the lossy ape dll (from may 2001, ve...   Apr 25 2003, 19:07
- - JohnV   QUOTE (budgie @ Apr 25 2003 - 02:39 PM)For my...   Apr 25 2003, 19:19
- - bryant   First of all, I'd like to thank everyone who h...   Apr 25 2003, 20:14
- - guruboolez   QUOTE (bryant @ Apr 25 2003 - 08:14 PM)Also, ...   Apr 25 2003, 20:45
- - HansHeijden   Bryant, I made a lossy ape of your sample, and mad...   Apr 25 2003, 20:55
- - JohnV   LOL.. now bryant is dragged to the lossy quality b...   Apr 25 2003, 21:44
- - HansHeijden   Bryant, the -j1 switch you mention indeed gives mu...   Apr 25 2003, 22:47
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (budgie @ Apr 25 2003 - 07:53 AM)QUOTE ...   Apr 26 2003, 00:14
- - bryant   Guruboolez: I tried to find that sample but could...   Apr 26 2003, 00:49
- - guruboolez   Here is the sample, compressed by a simple but imp...   Apr 26 2003, 01:04
- - den   @HansHeijden Thanks for making me aware of the los...   Apr 26 2003, 10:16
- - den   Just did a quick and dirty ABX test of wavpack los...   Apr 26 2003, 10:51
- - bryant   Guruboolez: Thanks for the sample. I didn't r...   Apr 28 2003, 21:19
- - den   Thanks for the info bryant. I concur that the joi...   Apr 29 2003, 01:23


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