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iTunes 10
Hansen
post Sep 26 2010, 09:50
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QUOTE (spoon @ Sep 17 2010, 10:41) *
Indeed as time trickles by iTunes seems less and less an audio player and more a selling platform (Tv shows, audio tracks, movies, books)

The marketing functions are very easily ignored.

Besides, the iTunes Store, with it's easy access to music, books etc, is one of the big assets for iTunes. The awkwardness of other online music stores is a problem.

And, as Peter 1050 says: At least on the Mac, there's no real competition for iTunes, even as a music player only.
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Billytheonion
post Sep 26 2010, 15:21
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For audio only on a Mac there are a couple or excellent alternatives. Vox and Play.

Vox is my personal fav amazing little light weight player. http://www.voxapp.uni.cc/

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cpchan
post Sep 26 2010, 15:43
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QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 26 2010, 04:50) *
Besides, the iTunes Store, with it's easy access to music, books etc, is one of the big assets for iTunes. The awkwardness of other online music stores is a problem.


I personally prefer buying CD's, but what is so hard and awkward about clicking a couple of links in a browser (plus there are a few music managers with plugins for online stores)? No offense to anyone, I really dislike "walled garden" ecosystems- I will not pay money to a company with an overlord who wants to dictate every aspect of my digital life. I have no intentions of becoming an iSurf.

This post has been edited by cpchan: Sep 26 2010, 15:44
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Hansen
post Sep 26 2010, 15:59
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QUOTE (Billytheonion @ Sep 26 2010, 16:21) *
For audio only on a Mac there are a couple or excellent alternatives. Vox and Play.

Well, these are only music players. You'll need to manage your music collection. With payers like tis, it's like dealing with digital photography in the days before Aperture and Lightroom. It easily takes more time than the music playing...

QUOTE (cpchan)
I will not pay money to a company with an overlord who wants to dictate every aspect of my digital life.

If you knew anything about Apple products and policy, you'd know that those kind of tabloid picture don't reflect reality. As a Mac user in private life and occasional Windows user in professional contexts, I can assure you that Microsoft force more limitations on Windows users than Apple do on Mac users.

(As any discussion on these things tends to end in accusations of 'fanboyism' and references to at least 3 conspiracy theories, I suggest that we don't continue on this off-topic.)

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cpchan
post Sep 26 2010, 16:35
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QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 26 2010, 10:59) *
If you knew anything about Apple products and policy, you'd know that those kind of tabloid picture don't reflect reality.


I don't read tabloids- however, I have been reading tech news for over 30 years (I started computing in my preteen years). Have you ever read their "app store" policy?

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 26 2010, 10:59) *
As a Mac user in private life and occasional Windows user in professional contexts, I can assure you that Microsoft force more limitations on Windows users than Apple do on Mac users.


I have no problems with Apple on their policy concerning desktops. However, I have major problems with their policies when it comes to their devices. I do not advocate for any company- I have used and switched Operating Systems many times and will do so again. I use what is technically best for me at any given time which currently is a Linux based system. I have no problems with Apple's underlying technology- I do know how to program in Objective-C and use NeXTStep based frameworks such as GNUStep.

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Hansen
post Sep 26 2010, 17:11
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QUOTE (cpchan @ Sep 26 2010, 17:35) *
I don't read tabloids- however, I have been reading tech news for over 30 years. Have you ever read their "app store" policy?

I suggested not to continue this discussion, but OK:

The AppStore policy is typically Apple:

They do not support stuff that might cause problems for their customers.

What the 'tech news' don't mention, is that with the same degree of technical skills and amount of labour that's needed to make many non-Apple solutions work at all, you can surpass the standard functionality of any Apple product. What might restrict you, is that some developers specializing on other platforms don't care to make Mac versions of their stuff.

Apple will tell you that unauthorized use of their products is illegal. But so will any large US corporation. And very much unlike Microsoft (which is the corporation most computer users have to rely on), Apple will tell you this once, in a general statement not with pop-up boxes that will have to be unchecked every time you try to do something that's not officially supported on your computer.

Of course Linux don't have these sort of things. But Linux is a platform that's really not an alternative for other than computer engineers, or people with skilled support ready at hand.
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cpchan
post Sep 26 2010, 17:36
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This is my last word on this topic.

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 26 2010, 12:11) *
Apple will tell you that unauthorized use of their products is illegal. But so will any large US corporation. And very much unlike Microsoft (which is the corporation most computer users have to rely on), Apple will tell you this once, in a general statement not with pop-up boxes that will have to be unchecked every time you try to do something that's not officially supported on your computer.


Each to their own. I personally will not buy a device from any company that restrict my freedom with what I can do with the device that I have purchased and/or doesn't support open standards.
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kornchild2002
post Sep 26 2010, 17:58
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QUOTE (cpchan @ Sep 26 2010, 07:43) *
I personally prefer buying CD's, but what is so hard and awkward about clicking a couple of links in a browser (plus there are a few music managers with plugins for online stores)? No offense to anyone, I really dislike "walled garden" ecosystems- I will not pay money to a company with an overlord who wants to dictate every aspect of my digital life. I have no intentions of becoming an iSurf.


I think I can give you some of my insight as to why I turn to the iTunes Store on the rare occasion and stopped using other services. I used to rely on Amazon.com's mp3 store as much as I did the iTunes Store. I too will always prefer buying the physical CDs but there are some instances when I want just one song and don't feel like spending $10 to hear it (though $1 is no problem) or there are some exclusive songs that aren't offered on CD yet are available in the iTunes Store (and rarely the Amazon mp3 store). I didn't have an issue using Amazon's mp3 store until I wanted to buy an album they had on sale. It was only $2.99 and the physical copy I have has long been destroyed. Amazon said that I could purchase individual songs directly through my web browser but I had to download their software in order to download the album as a whole thus receiving the discounted price. I installed their software which then downloaded the files in the background and added them to my iTunes library.

Essentially, there were three programs open and running just so I could use Amazon's mp3 store. Their browser interface was fast but I fail to see why I need yet another program just to download songs from their service that consumes more resources than it should (and iTunes is already a resource hog as-is) just so it can duplicate my songs when copying to my iTunes library. So not only do I have to do something with the original mp3 files but I have yet another program running in the background and a third just to view the content on their store. If I am going to download music, I would rather just have one program running. I can have iTunes running and that gives me access to their store, my music library, my downloads, etc. and everything is handled. I don't need to have three main programs open to use the iTunes Store, I just need one.

Granted, I don't use the iTunes Store much. I think I have plopped down about $300 and that has been since I started using it in 2003 (~$43 a year). I will download some singles if the albums are still 6+ months away from being released but I mostly stick to b-sides and "rare" songs that aren't available on CD (either that or the CD is $50 through eBay). Some people may scoff at the idea of spending $300 on the iTunes Store but it has become difficult to obtain content from many of the artists/bands I listen to without relying on it in some way, shape, or form. Other than that, I mostly rely on Amazon or Best Buy for obtaining the actual CDs.

As for your other comment. I guess that means that you don't buy CDs at all, never buy games, and never watch movies or subscribe to cable, internet, phone, and cellphone services. I am not trying to be an ass but there are many companies out there who want to control your digital life whether it be a cable company, ISP, cellphone provider, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Mozilla, etc. Every single record company out there, even the ones for independent artists, want to control the media you consume and thus your digital life. Refusing to give money to companies who want to control your digital life essentially means that you sit in a dark corner every single day doing nothing. In this day and age, you have to give money to a company who wants to control the content you consume as there is just no way around it. The difference is that you can let that company take control or you can move on and purchase media (and consume digital media) from many different sources. Either way, it is impossible to avoid giving money to a company who wants to control your digital life whether they have become as wide spread as Apple or not.
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Squeller
post Sep 26 2010, 17:59
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No need for itunes. I need the flexibility of fb2k (e.g, today I finished my fb2k layout for my 46" living room television - IT ROCKS -fb2k and plugins display exactly the information how and where I want them) - I cannot expect this from an "everybodies darling" toy. Also I don't need to talk about the tech/metadata side of fb2k. I mean, itunes is a thing also for people who have no idea what metadata is.
Last time I installed itunes, a few years ago, it installed a service, wanted quicktime, and was slow.
Also don't need the shopping side of it. I buy lossless classical stuff as close to the source as possible, i.e. I use the labels web shop, if exist. Apple won't get my money, because their stuff is too closed, too limited, no api's etc. I will never support them.

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 26 2010, 10:50) *
The awkwardness of other online music stores is a problem.

No problems e.g. with bleep.com or www.theclassicalshop.net - Should only be a problem for people who cannot handle download dialogs and who don't know what files, directories and folders are. A widely spread problem! But this really is another problem.

This post has been edited by Squeller: Sep 26 2010, 18:07
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cpchan
post Sep 26 2010, 18:16
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Sep 26 2010, 12:58) *
I am not trying to be an ass but there are many companies out there who want to control your digital life whether it be a cable company, ISP, cellphone provider, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Mozilla, etc. Every single record company out there, even the ones for independent artists, want to control the media you consume and thus your digital life.


True. Intellectual Property is the new battle front. This is why I support the EFF.
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googlebot
post Sep 26 2010, 18:25
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It's trivial to make a program performing well if all that is displayed is text and one image at a time (e.g. Foobar). Tell me any application that is able to browse through huge walls of album art as quickly & smoothly as iTunes can.
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Hansen
post Sep 26 2010, 19:31
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QUOTE (Squeller @ Sep 26 2010, 18:59) *
Should only be a problem for people who cannot handle download dialogs and who don't know what files, directories and folders are.

I certainly know what that is I've used computers for 25 years, and have written about them for 10.

I simply don't care to use half an hour on downloading, un-zipping, perhaps converting, and in any case organizing when buying, organizing and playing music from the iTunes Store is a matter of one mouse click, and a few seconds.

I use my computer as a tool to get things done, whether it's writing an article or listen to music. If I write an article about computers (which I dod for some years), understanding how the computer works is necessary. If I write about literature or cultural matters (which I prefer to do), and I want to play music while writing, how the computer works is completely irrelevant. I just want it to do the job without bothering me.

It's decades since you needed to be, or employ a mechanic to own a car. With computers we're still not quite there. But with software like iTunes, we're approaching that ideal.
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cpchan
post Sep 26 2010, 20:17
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QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 26 2010, 14:31) *
I simply don't care to use half an hour on downloading, un-zipping, perhaps converting, and in any case organizing when buying, organizing and playing music from the iTunes Store is a matter of one mouse click, and a few seconds.


Huh, most online stores sell tracks in a format that is part of a standard-

(1) MP3 (mpeg1/2 standard)
(2) AAC (mpeg4 standard)

Why would people have to transcode anything? Most software organize things with metadata- one does not have to organize anything on a file system level if one doesn't want to (plus they don't rename things to some obscure name like iTune does). Also, there are music managers out there with plugins to online stores, so they are one click also.

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 26 2010, 14:31) *
It's decades since you needed to be, or employ a mechanic to own a car. With computers we're still not quite there. But with software like iTunes, we're approaching that ideal.


Isn't learning basic computer operations akin to learning how to drive? Also what have letting people, with no basic computing knowledge, loose on the internet led to, but the spreading of viruses and trojans. comprimising systems everywhere?

This post has been edited by cpchan: Sep 26 2010, 20:23
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greynol
post Sep 26 2010, 20:38
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@kornchild2002
So if Amazon decided to make a media player then it would be ok. Last time I checked you had to install software from Apple if you wanted to buy something from the iTunes store, or have I been dreaming all this time rolleyes.gif

Before you respond, take a moment and consider that iTunes is a massive program. For those using Windows it installs system-level drivers. Its installation includes at least 4 separate programs (beating your Amazon comparison by one). Speaking of Amazon, what are the other two programs, your web browser and what else?

As far as tracks only available on iTunes, one thing is for certain, they weren't performed by the Beatles.

I find it quite hard to take your comparisons seriously. This is without paying any attention to your avatar.

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 26 2010, 20:40


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cpchan
post Sep 26 2010, 20:53
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 26 2010, 15:38) *
For those using Windows it installs system-level drivers. Its installation includes at least 4 separate programs (beating your Amazon comparison by one).


@greynol: Interesting, I didn't know that (I have never installed iTunes on Windows before). Can you tell me what these 4 programs are?
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greynol
post Sep 26 2010, 20:58
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iTunes
Quicktime
Bonjour
Apple Update
Then there are at least two others that deal with hardware devices such as the iPods and iPhones.


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cpchan
post Sep 26 2010, 21:34
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 26 2010, 15:58) *
iTunes
Quicktime
Bonjour
Apple Update
Then there are at least two others that deal with hardware devices such as the iPods and iPhones.


Thanks for the info.
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MichaelW
post Sep 26 2010, 23:39
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Just in case there is anybody reading who wonders whether or not to use iTunes:

1. Do you have a Mac? If Yes, why would you not?

2. Do you run Windows? If Yes, why would you? Well, I have an iPhone/iPod Touch, and the Apps are important. OK, you're stuck with it, so you might as well use it for other things.

3. Do you want to be superior to people who, like, buy amplifiers in a furniture store? Shun it like the plague.

4. Do you run Linux? See if you can get iTunes running under WINE, and then complain about what a resource hog it is.
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cpchan
post Sep 27 2010, 00:18
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QUOTE (MichaelW @ Sep 26 2010, 18:39) *
3. Do you want to be superior to people who, like, buy amplifiers in a furniture store? Shun it like the plague.

4. Do you run Linux? See if you can get iTunes running under WINE, and then complain about what a resource hog it is.


ROTFL.

5. Definitely, if you are a Pod people:

http://awhimsicalbohemian.typepad.com/.a/6...4a2f428a4-320wi

wink.gif

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Squeller
post Sep 27 2010, 05:24
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QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 26 2010, 20:31) *
I certainly know what that is — I've used computers for 25 years, and have written about them for 10.
I wasn't writing about you smile.gif

QUOTE
It's decades since you needed to be, or employ a mechanic to own a car. With computers we're still not quite there. But with software like iTunes, we're approaching that ideal.
I see your point. This topic is always matter of discussion. For the same job some people say it's necessary to know it, others say it's a computer experts job.

I think, knowing where files and folders are, knowing about where personally important data reside: it's a good thing. I'm having all those people (amongst my relatives) in mind, losing all their stuff accidentally at once, because they don't know anything. Or they don't find their stuff, because after a program reinstall it points to another place.

And come on, we are at HA wink.gif

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Engelsstaub
post Sep 27 2010, 08:46
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I'm no iTunes/Apple fanboy but...

I love my iPod 160Gb Classic. I don't care who made it, it's a great DAP, IMO. Bought mine as a refurb over two years ago on the Apple Store website...still runs like a tank with incredible battery-life. I think it sounds great, it's stupid-loud, and I can cram all of the albums I can stand for on it...even @ Apple Lossless. To me, that's what a great personal audio player should be.

I guess the reason I'm sharing this with everyone is that I just can't hate iTunes. I think most of you are right about the "bloat" (though it doesn't affect me on my PC,) but I feel it's one of the better "commercial" media players out there. (There's far more granular control than with Zune. Zune software is very user-friendly but, for me, that plays against it. The Zune 80Gb that I used to have was decent and a good iPod competitor, IMO.)

...that said, I would NOT recommend it for those with simple or older PCs. It will run well on Macs (of course) and modern "higher-end" PCs. The startup/background processes have no effect on my laptop. iTunes opens faster than Firefox most of the time. 3 seconds avg. / 5 seconds tops. I remember not being quite so fond of iTunes on my Gateway laptop a few years back (AMD Turion x2 / 3 Gb RAM.) The laptop had decent specs (even for now) and I had the 20 second startup times as many of you do.

I think it's great that we have choice though. Foobar 2K is a great player. I use a portable version and have nothing bad to say about it. If I plug in my external HDD wherein all of my FLAC-archived CDs are stored, I'm certainly not going to convert them to ALAC just to listen to them laugh.gif I agree with Michael W: Mac users have it made with this software. Windows users have to be a bit more selective weighing many of the things said in this thread against their PC and how it will perform. I sympathize with greynol as well in that one should not have to use a computer that is equipped well above their needs to run this program satisfactorily. It doesn't make iTunes look cool in any sense.

googlebot said: "Tell me any application that is able to browse through huge walls of album art as quickly & smoothly as iTunes can." If that's important to the user, I believe he's right. I love the coverflow.


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greynol
post Sep 27 2010, 09:41
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I really wasn't interested in yet another round but the thought that Amazon's requirement that you install some software is comparable to installing a 100MB software suite is laughable. For some reason I don't think Mozilla is determined to use something like Firefox to leverage people into buying stuff from them like Apple, either. Maybe I'm just naive.


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Hansen
post Sep 27 2010, 10:02
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As I expected, this discussion turned ideological, and several conspiracy theories were launched...

Just to make it clear:

Yes, iTunes installs QuickTime and some other pieces of Apple technology on your computer. But so does Photoshop and other graphic apps, video editing software etc. These pieces of Apple technology are simply 'industry standards' in multimedia.

Yes, iTunes installs a software updater. But so does most software.

And no, iTunes does not change filenames to gibberish. The music is stored inside a folder named 'iTunes Music', in a simple and logical folder/file structure: 'Artist's Name' > 'Album Name' > 'Tune's Name.m4a' (or whatever extension fits the file format).

If you don't have an ideological grudge against this one IT company, it comes down to this:

iTunes offers one seamless solution for buying sound and AV files, ripping and importing sound and AV files, organizing sound and AV files, playing sound and AV files, sharing these files on a home network with remote control by smartphones etc, and copying them between devices such as portable players.

The functions of iTunes and related solutions are widely expandable through third party add-ons. Solutions that allows easy import from other on-line stores than the iTunes Store is lacking, at least on the Mac but as such import options are included in several sound recording apps, this is obviously caused by a lack of interest among the owners of these online stores.

iTunes don't force you to use Apple hardware or proprietary file formats. Any music or AV files organized by iTunes are accessible from Squeezebox, Sonos etc. Several NASes runs software that plays music stored by iTunes. Copy protection on iTunes material is history, and was not Apple's idea anyway, but an attempt from the record companies to protect their own interests in a situation when Apple were way ahead of the established music industry in developing online music distribution.

iTunes lacks support for FLAC and MKV. This might be because these formats are not properly standarized (that's the official explanation) or because they're primarily used for illegal copying. After all, unlike small, independent and often non-commercial developers, Apple have to please the media corporations. Apple had a hard fight to get them to cooperate in the first place, and still the business puts some restrictions on iTunes material.

That iTunes is demanding on computer resources is a myth. Most Mac users run iTunes in the background while doing their job, which often includes heavy tasks like image processing.
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greynol
post Sep 27 2010, 10:09
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QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 27 2010, 02:02) *
But so does Photoshop and other graphic apps, video editing software etc.

We aren't discussing graphic apps, video editing software, etc.

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 27 2010, 02:02) *
And no, iTunes does not change filenames to gibberish.

I see you're taking this out of context. Feel free to re-read the passages you've mischaracterized.

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 27 2010, 02:02) *
That iTunes is demanding on computer resources is a myth.

There are plenty of us here that can demonstrate how you are so very wrong. Do you think we're all liars?

So what were those "conspiracy theories" again? emot-sherlock.gif

EDIT: Noting cpchan's response below, BS indeed!

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 27 2010, 10:53


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cpchan
post Sep 27 2010, 10:37
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QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 27 2010, 05:02) *
These pieces of Apple technology are simply 'industry standards' in multimedia.


Huh, AAC and H.264 are industrial standards, but Quicktime is not- it is a proprietary multimedia framework.

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 27 2010, 05:02) *
iTunes offers one seamless solution for buying sound and AV files,


Yes, from a closed ecosystem.

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 27 2010, 05:02) *
and copying them between devices such as portable players.


So can any program and device that support an industrial standard called MTP.

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 27 2010, 05:02) *
iTunes lacks support for FLAC and MKV. This might be because these formats are not properly standarized (that's the official explanation)


BS, the specs are published, standardized, open and royalty free:

FLAC (also part of the Xiph family): http://flac.sourceforge.net/format.html

Matroska: http://www.matroska.org/technical/specs/index.html

QUOTE (Hansen @ Sep 27 2010, 05:02) *
or because they're primarily used for illegal copying.


More BS.

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