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EAC to FLAC, reading the Cuesheet in Foobar, (I know it's not supported..) :)
Recusant
post Sep 1 2010, 13:10
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I have EAC automatically detect gaps, and when i rip a CD that is gapless, the cuesheet reads fine in Foobar (i rip and create the cuesheet to multiple files).

However, when i have a CD that does NOT have gaps, it won't read in Foobar.

I realise that Foobar doesn't support the non-compliant cuesheets, but why does it read perfectly well if the CD i'm ripping from has no gaps?

Here's an example of the gapless CDs cuesheet that seems to read fine in Foobar:
CODE
REM GENRE Techno
REM DATE 1996
REM DISCID B40E520F
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Various"
TITLE "Strictly Techno 3 (Mixed by DJ Peewee Ferris)"
FILE "01. DJ Tom & Norman - Thunder God (Remix Version).flac" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Thunder God (Remix Version)"
    PERFORMER "DJ Tom & Norman"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02. DJ Quicksilver - Bingo Bongo (Club Mix).flac" WAVE
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Bingo Bongo (Club Mix)"
    PERFORMER "DJ Quicksilver"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00


Here's a cuesheet from a CD that is NOT gapless and doesn't read fine in Foobar:
CODE
REM GENRE Soundtrack
REM DATE 1986
REM DISCID 8509130A
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Various"
TITLE "Top Gun"
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\01. Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone - Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
    PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
    PERFORMER "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
    INDEX 00 03:31:64


Note that i rename the file extension so it works straight up in Foobar, but also the in the burning software i use (CDBurnerXP). Interestingly, CDBurnerXP also reads and burns the gapless cue fine - but doesn't like the cuesheet from a CD that has gaps.

Foobar's error in this case is: "Unable to open item for playback (Error parsing cuesheet: invalid index list (line 18)):
"C:\Users\Public\Music\_Archive\Various\Top Gun (1986)\Top Gun.cue""

I get varying line numbers, but always the same error.

I gather it has something to do with the Index 00 but i don't understand what, and just as important, what setting i might have to change in EAC to get it to work 'compliantly' for CDs that are not gapless. I turned on the advance settings to try to figure it out, but it's just confused me.

I've discovered this after archiving some 50 CDs too sad.gif If i can simply edit my .cue files to fix this problem that would be handy to know too)

Thanks.
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db1989
post Sep 1 2010, 13:21
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QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 1 2010, 13:10) *
when i rip a CD that is gapless, the cuesheet reads fine in Foobar
QUOTE
when i have a CD that does NOT have gaps, it won't read in Foobar.
QUOTE
why does it read perfectly well if the CD i'm ripping from has no gaps?
You appear to have just completely contradicted yourself three times.

QUOTE
Here's a cuesheet from a CD that is NOT gapless and doesn't read fine in Foobar:
CODE

  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
    PERFORMER "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
    INDEX 00 03:31:64

I gather it has something to do with the Index 00 but i don't understand what, and just as important, what setting i might have to change in EAC to get it to work 'compliantly' for CDs that are not gapless. I turned on the advance settings to try to figure it out, but it's just confused me.
I can't be sure, as you (conveniently) cut the cue sheet right before the next INDEX 01, but if a new file is referenced before it, that renders the cue sheet non-compliant (at least with the standard set out by CDRWIN et al.. Which brings me to:
QUOTE
why does it read perfectly well if the CD i'm ripping from has no gaps?
A track's INDEXes will only render a cue sheet noncompliant if they span multiple tracks as described above.

Either way, this isn't an issue of EAC. If you want to back your CDs up with that type of cue sheet, why not continue to do so, and just load the tracks into foobar2000 without the cue sheet?

This post has been edited by dv1989: Sep 1 2010, 13:42
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greynol
post Sep 1 2010, 19:40
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I'm fairly certain this has nothing to do with gaps; the most obvious difference between the two sheets is the absence of path information in the first one.

However as dv1989 said, not enough information was given to know if the gap entries are correct. There are drives that give bogus information when not configured with the proper detection method.

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 1 2010, 19:45


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db1989
post Sep 1 2010, 20:12
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 1 2010, 19:40) *
I'm fairly certain this has nothing to do with gaps; the most obvious difference between the two sheets is the absence of path information in the first one.
I did wonder if the presence of relative path information in the second cue sheet might be a factor, but the fact that the error returned was "invalid index list" made it less plausible (I would have thought it would simply choke on the first FILE reference in the former case).

Now that I look at it, you quoted foobar2000 as identifying the error in line 18, but cut the cuesheet after line 15; as it is, I would guess that line 16 is the next FILE entry, and line 17 is the track's INDEX 01--but perhaps I'm misinterpreting. I do think it's due to the referencing of multiple files for the same track, which foobar2000 doesn't support due to it 'rigidly' (except for EAC REM lines and Replay Gain) following the standard used by CDRWIN et al.
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Recusant
post Sep 1 2010, 23:52
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 1 2010, 14:21) *
QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 1 2010, 13:10) *
when i rip a CD that is gapless, the cuesheet reads fine in Foobar
QUOTE
when i have a CD that does NOT have gaps, it won't read in Foobar.
QUOTE
why does it read perfectly well if the CD i'm ripping from has no gaps?
You appear to have just completely contradicted yourself three times.


Yes, typo - but not three contradictions, only one. The second one should be CD that DOES have gaps produces a cuesheet that won't read in Foobar. All the CDs i've tested that are gapless create a cuesheet that reads fine in Foobar - i can just double-click and Foobar starts playing. Every CD i've tried that is not gapless (has gaps) doesn't work.

QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 1 2010, 14:21) *
I can't be sure, as you (conveniently) cut the cue sheet right before the next INDEX 01, but if a new file is referenced before it, that renders the cue sheet non-compliant (at least with the standard set out by CDRWIN et al..


Bugger, i'll add the complete sheets when i get home. I thought it'd be enough.

QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 1 2010, 14:21) *
Which brings me to:
QUOTE
why does it read perfectly well if the CD i'm ripping from has no gaps?
A track's INDEXes will only render a cue sheet noncompliant if they span multiple tracks as described above.

Either way, this isn't an issue of EAC. If you want to back your CDs up with that type of cue sheet, why not continue to do so, and just load the tracks into foobar2000 without the cue sheet?


Is it possible to point me to an FAQ that explains what you've said just above or elaborating? I'm having trouble understanding it. I have looked, but what i've found has just confused me sad.gif I don't get the spanning multiple tracks, all my CDs have multiple tracks (bar a couple) and all the cue sheets of course have spanning tracks. I know it's the indexes but i obviously have a brain lock that just doesn't understand what the FAQs are trying to tell me.

Re loading up the cuesheet into Foobar instead of just the files, Apart from being faster to simply double-click the .cue i also use the cuesheet to burn straight from FLAC to CD using CDBurnerXP. What works in one works in the other (presumably both require compliant sheets). It's very fast and convenient to burn that way.

Thanks.
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db1989
post Sep 2 2010, 10:25
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My mistake; I should have said "multiple files".

All it means is that foobar2000 expects a TRACK entry to have only one corresponding FILE. I suspect your second cue sheet references a new file before the track's INDEX 01, thus failing this criterion and rendering it noncompliant/rejected.
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Recusant
post Sep 2 2010, 11:19
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Here's the full files.

Works:
CODE
REM GENRE Techno
REM DATE 1996
REM DISCID B40E520F
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Various"
TITLE "Strictly Techno 3 (Mixed by DJ Peewee Ferris)"
FILE "01. DJ Tom & Norman - Thunder God (Remix Version).flac" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Thunder God (Remix Version)"
PERFORMER "DJ Tom & Norman"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02. DJ Quicksilver - Bingo Bongo (Club Mix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Bingo Bongo (Club Mix)"
PERFORMER "DJ Quicksilver"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "03. Awex - Back On Plastic (Mandala Remix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Back On Plastic (Mandala Remix)"
PERFORMER "Awex"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "04. DJ Peewee Ferris vs DJ John Ferris - Time To Make The Floor Burn (P' In Yer Face Mix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Time To Make The Floor Burn (P' In Yer Face Mix)"
PERFORMER "DJ Peewee Ferris vs DJ John Ferris"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "05. Tokyo Ghetto Pussy - I Kiss Your Lips (Dune Remix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "I Kiss Your Lips (Dune Remix)"
PERFORMER "Tokyo Ghetto Pussy"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "06. Ultra-Sonic - 1,2,3,4 (Extended Version).flac" WAVE
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "1,2,3,4 (Extended Version)"
PERFORMER "Ultra-Sonic"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "07. Scott Brown - Now Is The Time (Main Mix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "Now Is The Time (Main Mix)"
PERFORMER "Scott Brown"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "08. DJ Darren Briais vs DJ Peewee Ferris - I Feel It (BS Happy Hardcore Mix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "I Feel It (BS Happy Hardcore Mix)"
PERFORMER "DJ Darren Briais vs DJ Peewee Ferris"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "09. F1 - The Race Must Go On (Racing Raver Mix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 09 AUDIO
TITLE "The Race Must Go On (Racing Raver Mix)"
PERFORMER "F1"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "10. Rave Over Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata No. 14 (Club Mix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 10 AUDIO
TITLE "Moonlight Sonata No. 14 (Club Mix)"
PERFORMER "Rave Over Beethoven"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "11. Sequential One - Pump Up The Bass (Second Version).flac" WAVE
TRACK 11 AUDIO
TITLE "Pump Up The Bass (Second Version)"
PERFORMER "Sequential One"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "12. Hoops Inc. - Joy (A New World Anthem) (Mudskipper's 'Log For Kids' Mix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 12 AUDIO
TITLE "Joy (A New World Anthem) (Mudskipper's 'Log For Kids' Mix)"
PERFORMER "Hoops Inc."
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "13. Legend B - Lost In Love (Sysex Style Mix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 13 AUDIO
TITLE "Lost In Love (Sysex Style Mix)"
PERFORMER "Legend B"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "14. Vision Four 5 - Purple Lamp (White Trash Mix).flac" WAVE
TRACK 14 AUDIO
TITLE "Purple Lamp (White Trash Mix)"
PERFORMER "Vision Four 5"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "15. Dyewitness - The Master Plan (Live Version).flac" WAVE
TRACK 15 AUDIO
TITLE "The Master Plan (Live Version)"
PERFORMER "Dyewitness"
INDEX 01 00:00:00



Doesn't work:
CODE
REM GENRE Soundtrack
REM DATE 1986
REM DISCID 8509130A
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Various"
TITLE "Top Gun"
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\01. Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone - Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone.flac" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
PERFORMER "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
INDEX 00 03:31:64
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\02. Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings - Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys"
PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys"
INDEX 00 03:49:28
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\03. Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys - Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Teena Marie - Lead Me On"
PERFORMER "Teena Marie - Lead Me On"
INDEX 00 03:55:57
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\04. Teena Marie - Lead Me On - Teena Marie - Lead Me On.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "Berlin - Take My Breath Away"
PERFORMER "Berlin - Take My Breath Away"
INDEX 00 03:44:17
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\05. Berlin - Take My Breath Away - Berlin - Take My Breath Away.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\06. Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights - Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights.flac" WAVE
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights"
PERFORMER "Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes"
PERFORMER "Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes"
INDEX 00 03:36:23
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\07. Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes - Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "Larry Greene - Through The Fire"
PERFORMER "Larry Greene - Through The Fire"
INDEX 00 04:03:17
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\08. Larry Greene - Through The Fire - Larry Greene - Through The Fire.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 09 AUDIO
TITLE "Marietta - Destination Unknown"
PERFORMER "Marietta - Destination Unknown"
INDEX 00 03:42:13
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\09. Marietta - Destination Unknown - Marietta - Destination Unknown.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 10 AUDIO
TITLE "Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem"
PERFORMER "Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem"
INDEX 00 03:45:33
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\10. Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem - Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00


Both were extracted using the exact same method (leaving EAC to detect gaps automatically on basic settings). It's possible i deleted the path info in the Strictly Techno cuesheet for some reason (i don't know why i did that, but i did for some unsure.gif )

This post has been edited by Recusant: Sep 2 2010, 11:23
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Alex B
post Sep 2 2010, 13:57
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QUOTE
I realise that Foobar doesn't support the non-compliant cuesheets, but why does it read perfectly well if the CD i'm ripping from has no gaps?

Because the cue sheet without the INDEX 00 entries is "compliant".

BTW, in my opinion the term "gap" is misleading in this context, although it is used in EAC. Many users understand that a "gap" is a silent pause, but technically the INDEX 00 entries have nothing to do with what you may or may not hear. The passages between INDEX 00 and INDEX 01 may contain audio or they may be silent. The INDEX 00 entries are just cue points that may be more or less usable with some hardware players. I am not aware of any software player that would make any use of the possibly existing INDEX 00 (and/or INDEX 02, INDEX 03, INDEX 04, etc) entries.

In general, this whole discussion is quite unnecessary because there is no advantage of using a cue sheet for playing or importing albums that consist of individual track files in foobar2000.

When it works (i.e. when the cue sheet is "compliant" enough) each cue track entry inside foobar normally* refers to the complete audio file (from the first audio sample to the last audio sample) and when it does not work (i.e. when foobar thinks that the cue sheet is "non-compliant") - well, then it does not work.

EDIT

* I included the word "normally" because it is possible to use the "Append Gaps to Next Track" setting and thus create a cue sheet in which the INDEX 00 entries always follow the corresponding filename entry. I.e. the player would then start from the INDEX 01 position when a new track starts playing, not from the INDEX 00 position which points to the beginning of the audio file. I have never tried such a cue sheet with foobar, but it might work.

This post has been edited by Alex B: Sep 2 2010, 14:52


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db1989
post Sep 2 2010, 14:59
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QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 2 2010, 11:19) *
Here's the full files.

Doesn't work:
CODE

FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\01. Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone - Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone.flac" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
PERFORMER "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
INDEX 00 03:31:64
FILE "Various\Top Gun (1986)\02. Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings - Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
Exactly as I thought. You have tracks made up of multiple files, which as myself and Alex B have said renders the cue sheet noncompliant.

Alex made some other good points, about the confusing different uses of the word gap, and (as I noted earlier) the redundancy of using a cue sheet to play multiple tracks.
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greynol
post Sep 2 2010, 17:18
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So it sounds like the OP does not know what makes a cue sheet noncompliant.

I had assumed that the initial presentation of the CUE that didn't work was a single-file image since it could have been based on the structure. I completely missed that the file listed in the CUE began with a track number. My bad.


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Recusant
post Sep 2 2010, 23:53
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 2 2010, 18:18) *
So it sounds like the OP does not know what makes a cue sheet noncompliant.


That would be correct.

I have read FAQs that try to tell me, but i just don't *get it*. sad.gif
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db1989
post Sep 2 2010, 23:56
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Myself and Alex B have explained the issue that renders your second cue sheet non-compliant several times.

It is non-compliant for any TRACK to reference more than one FILE. Your second cue sheet's TRACK 02 (to name just one) has an INDEX 00 from one file, then an INDEX 01 from another. Thus said cue is non-compliant. If this isn't clear enough I don't know how to simplify further.

This post has been edited by dv1989: Sep 3 2010, 00:00
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Recusant
post Sep 3 2010, 00:03
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 2 2010, 15:59) *
Alex made some other good points ... and (as I noted earlier) the redundancy of using a cue sheet to play multiple tracks.


I also burn straight from FLAC using CDBurnerXP remember (when the cuesheet makes it possible). Rather than converting back to WAV and then to CD.

Ultimately, i think what i need to come away with is:

- understanding why the sheet is non-compliant (i will read the answers you guys have given me thoroughly tonight) and what settings in EAC make compliant and non-compliant sheets and does that make any difference to 'restoring' the CD with and without 'gaps' as appropriate.
- What gapless is really (vs perhaps colloquially)
- Will EAC rip "gapped" and "gapless" (meaning no pauses between the music if the track has no pauses) and generate compliant cuesheets
- Should i just go and buy dbPoweramp because it's easier and i'm obviously not smart enough to work it out even with all the help i get!
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greynol
post Sep 3 2010, 00:06
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Another way to restate what dv1989 said is that a new TRACK designation can never come before a new FILE in a compliant sheet.

If there are any gaps (00 indices) other than before the start of the first track, then a CUE sheet for gaps appended to the previous tracks ripped as one track per file will be noncompliant. Appending gaps to the previous track is the standard method of ripping tracks to individual files in all programs; it is also what you get if you use EAC in beginner mode or if you rip prior to detecting gaps. If your disc has gaps between tracks and you want the corresponding cue sheet to be compliant and also retain the gap information, you must either rip to a single-file image, rip with the gaps prepended to the current track (appended to the next track in EAC-speak), or rip with them left out.

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...AC_Gap_Settings
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti..._and_Cue_Sheets

Gapped and gapless in terms of whether tracks that transition without an audible pause have absolutely nothing to do with gap settings in a ripping program.

All buying dBpoweramp will do is limit your choices when it comes to gap placement (as will running EAC in beginner mode).

Finally, CUE sheets are not playlists. If you want a playlist then create a proper one.

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 3 2010, 03:53


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db1989
post Sep 3 2010, 00:19
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QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 3 2010, 00:03) *
what settings in EAC make compliant and non-compliant sheets and does that make any difference to 'restoring' the CD with and without 'gaps' as appropriate.
To make non-compliant cue sheets, use the "Multiple files with gaps (noncompliant)" option. To make compliant cue sheets, don't! *

QUOTE
- What gapless is really (vs perhaps colloquially)
Gapless generally refers to something different: the ability of lossy formats to store/replicate the correct number and alignment of samples from the source audio, rather than (as non-gapless) introducing silence at the beginning and/or end (due to the time-frequency transformation that is performed as part of their psychoacoustic model).

In the context of this topic, I take gap to mean an INDEX 00 or PREGAP (= a silent INDEX 00), and thus gapless to mean "without any INDEX 00 before any tracks". Gap may refer specifically to silent sections, which may be indices. However, I try to avoid these usages, due to the commoner one above. It's more understandable, and less potentially confusing, to refer to indices.

QUOTE
- Will EAC rip "gapped" and "gapless" (meaning no pauses between the music if the track has no pauses) and generate compliant cuesheets
EAC will never introduce new INDEX 00s and/or silent sections (I'm not sure what you mean by "pauses") between tracks, whether silent or not. To generate compliant cue sheets, rip as "Multiple files with gaps (corrected)". However, note that this moves INDEX 00s to the beginning of each track's audio file, instead of the end of the preceding track as with non-compliant cue sheet rips. This will cause said indices to be played first if you play the files alone, which some users may not like for various reasons (e.g. not representing artist/producer intent).

QUOTE
- Should i just go and buy dbPoweramp because it's easier and i'm obviously not smart enough to work it out even with all the help i get!
I'm not saying you're not smart, just confused! I hope this post goes some way to clearing up said confusion. The ultimate point is that it's easy to avoid the error in foobar2000, whether by ripping to another type of cue sheet (or a single-file image), or by loading just the audio files into foobar2000 (they should be tagged individually, in which case a cue sheet is redundant anyway).

* As an addendum, to respond to the second part of your first quote above: No, the cue sheet type shouldn't affect your ability to recreate the CD. Certainly EAC won't delete (or create new) indices, as I said above. The only issue that may arise is if your CD has an INDEX 00 before TRACK 01 (i.e. HTOA / hidden track one audio). I know that with non-compliant cue sheets you must rip this separately using the range extractor; however, I don't know if the compliant method automatically prepends the HTOA to TRACK 01's audio file.

This post has been edited by dv1989: Sep 3 2010, 01:07
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greynol
post Sep 3 2010, 01:02
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 2 2010, 16:19) *
* As an addendum, to respond to the second part of your first quote above: No, the cue sheet type shouldn't affect your ability to recreate the CD.
You cannot mix and match CUE sheets with gap placement willy-nilly. I'm getting the impression by what you've said that you think you can; you cannot. Each method of gap handling requires a specific type of CUE sheet to maintain accurate timing. If there are no gaps between tracks then this is a moot issue as all the different varieties of CUE sheets for for one track per file will produce the same CUE sheet (and this sheet will be compliant).

QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 2 2010, 16:19) *
The only issue that may arise is if your CD has an INDEX 00 before TRACK 01 (i.e. HTOA / hidden track one audio). I know that with non-compliant cue sheets you must rip this separately using the range extractor; however, I don't know if the compliant method automatically prepends the HTOA to TRACK 01's audio file.
If you rip with gaps appended to the previous track or the disc does not have gaps between tracks and you want the HTOA preserved as a separate file then the corresponding CUE sheet must be manually edited to accommodate the hidden track and the resulting sheet will not be compliant.

QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 2 2010, 16:19) *
The ultimate point is that it's easy to avoid the error in foobar2000, whether by ripping to another type of cue sheet (or a single-file image), or by loading just the audio files into foobar2000 (they should be tagged individually, in which case a cue sheet is redundant anyway).
Using the wrong type of cue sheet just for the sake of getting it working in foobar2000 may produce undesirable results (eg: track playback may start part-way into the track rather than at the beginning). The correct solution is to use a proper playlist.

Also, we need to make it clear that there is no rule that says 00 indices must only contain silence.

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 3 2010, 01:18


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db1989
post Sep 3 2010, 01:08
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I didn't intend to imply either of those, so my mistake if something I wrote did. The various terms do leave much room for confusion: gaps, pauses, indices, pregap, gapless…non-gapless silence, pregap silence, non-pregap silence…especially at this time of night/morning. wacko.gif

This post has been edited by dv1989: Sep 3 2010, 01:10
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greynol
post Sep 3 2010, 01:28
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Yep and I think you're exactly right referring to them as indices and not gaps in an attempt to distinguish two completely different concepts.

What makes it difficult is that they can be intertwined like when your burning program adds two seconds of silence between tracks, in which case they are usually marked with a 00 index, though this doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Then there's the case where a 00 index can mark audio such as applause between songs or an introduction to the next song on a live album. This is a situation where a "gap" marked by a 00 index is completely different from a pause in the audio.

Somewhat related and every bit as confusing for some is that EAC will list the pregap before the first track in a log as greater than 2 seconds if there's a 00 index before the first track and 2 seconds if there isn't, as opposed to just indicating if there are gaps present for all the other tracks. This is why I normally talk about gaps between tracks when making a distinction between sheets that are compliant an noncompliant.

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 3 2010, 03:53


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Recusant
post Sep 5 2010, 11:59
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 3 2010, 01:19) *
QUOTE
- Will EAC rip "gapped" and "gapless" (meaning no pauses between the music if the track has no pauses) and generate compliant cuesheets
EAC will never introduce new INDEX 00s and/or silent sections (I'm not sure what you mean by "pauses") between tracks, whether silent or not. To generate compliant cue sheets, rip as "Multiple files with gaps (corrected)". However, note that this moves INDEX 00s to the beginning of each track's audio file, instead of the end of the preceding track as with non-compliant cue sheet rips. This will cause said indices to be played first if you play the files alone, which some users may not like for various reasons (e.g. not representing artist/producer intent).


That is a very valuable piece of advice there. Thank you.

QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 3 2010, 01:19) *
QUOTE
- Should i just go and buy dbPoweramp because it's easier and i'm obviously not smart enough to work it out even with all the help i get!
I'm not saying you're not smart, just confused! I hope this post goes some way to clearing up said confusion. The ultimate point is that it's easy to avoid the error in foobar2000, whether by ripping to another type of cue sheet (or a single-file image), or by loading just the audio files into foobar2000 (they should be tagged individually, in which case a cue sheet is redundant anyway).


I didn't intend the statement as any suggestion that you or any one else here has made me feel stupid, just that as you say i get very confused - totally self-inflicted smile.gif

Heh, i spent 2 weeks learning how to do a military drill with a gun and i would get it badly wrong. Then one day something just clicked and i never had a problem again. I need that click smile.gif

Thanks guys smile.gif I'm going to read the links provided and experiment a with EAC.

I'm also going to download the trial of dbPoweramp to see what it's like anyway - but i'm a big fan of freeware so i'm going to try to get EAC to work for me.
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db1989
post Sep 5 2010, 12:44
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Glad it's a bit clearer. I'm sure the difference between the two types of cue sheets will be quite clear once you compare them. Also note that dBpowerAMP is available in a free version, though I can't confirm whether or not it includes cue sheet support, which as far as I know is a recent addition to the application.
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Recusant
post Sep 6 2010, 11:09
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 5 2010, 13:44) *
Glad it's a bit clearer. I'm sure the difference between the two types of cue sheets will be quite clear once you compare them. Also note that dBpowerAMP is available in a free version, though I can't confirm whether or not it includes cue sheet support, which as far as I know is a recent addition to the application.


Yeah, i downloaded and tried it. It's nice and easy but NO cue support at all. Hard to believe that EAC has had it for years, and is free - and this paid software isn't. I was stunned!

Release 14 is supposed to have an addon that does it, but i'm not going to worry about it - i'll get EAC to work for me like hundreds of thousands of other users have.
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db1989
post Sep 6 2010, 11:44
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Ah, I forgot cue sheet support is still in beta.

Yeah, just rip a couple of CDs, each with both methods, and compare the cue sheets and audio files. Basically, the compliant method sticks a given track's INDEX 00 on the beginning of the next track, while noncompliant puts it at the end of the previous track (as it would be played in a CD player, effectively).
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greynol
post Sep 6 2010, 21:25
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It's the method selected at the bottom of the Action menu that determines where in the files gaps are stuck. The type of CUE sheet is supposed to reflect the placement. Choosing the wrong one will not change the way the files were written.

The moral of the story is that CUE sheets are not interchangeable if there are any non-01 indices.


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db1989
post Sep 6 2010, 21:33
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Good point; I tend to forget that cue sheets must be created separately for multi-file rips.
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greynol
post Sep 6 2010, 22:02
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People normally rip images in one of two ways. One is a as a single-file image with a CUE sheet for a single file. The other is as separate tracks with gaps appended to the previous track with the CUE sheet, "Multiple WAV Files With Gaps (Noncompliant)." When in beginner mode, these are the two options that are presented, though they are presented as just "Single WAV File" and "Multiple WAV Files".


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