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Call for capable people to do a comparison of rippers
Jan S.
post Jul 26 2010, 00:13
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Hi.

Over the years and recently (here and here) there have been many discussions and questions about the differences between different cd rippers. New rippers with secure ripping facilities (dbpoweramp, CUEtools, foobar etc) have emerged in recent years and it is now difficult to judge compared to some years ago when the only answer was EAC.

For this reason I thought it could be very good to have a page at the wiki trying to explain in a concise form what the differences are. I was imagining a table with features like we have done for the Lossless format comparison but probably also additional text is required.

I do not consider myself close to competent to try to do this but I have tried to setup a starting point for such a page here: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...n_of_CD_rippers
I hope the capable people here will invest some time into this so as to save time repeating these points. Please post your thoughts on this idea: how best to organize?, what to put in the table?, which programs are relevant?, what other issues need to be explain in text?, etc.

Some more links:
wikipedias list of rippers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_ripper
Kind of comparison here for secure ripping features: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Secure_ripping
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Jan S.
post Jul 29 2010, 00:15
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  • Why is over-reading in the cache column?
  • Why does "no" have a different color for C2?
  • I think some explanation of the C2 pointers is needed. The general user will have no idea significance "initial pass" and "on re-reads" has.


QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 27 2010, 17:14) *
Careful about post-processing. With at least dBpoweramp and Rip, AR is more integrated into the ripping process; decisions are made based on its results. In the case of dBpoweramp, any combination of results from multiple passes that differ are checked against the database.
"Ripping process" can be renamed to "data acquisition" and "Post processing etc." just to "Additional features". This will suffice?

QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 28 2010, 00:51) *
I'm starting to think that just specifying Windows in the OS is not adequate. Many people are having quite a bit of difficulty getting EAC to work properly with 64-bit versions of Windows specifically and post-XP Windows in general. While some people are finding solutions, more and different problems are being reported regularly. There seem to be more and more drive-based or interface-based issues as well.
QUOTE (spoon @ Jul 27 2010, 17:20) *
All good, CD-Text might be listed under the metadata for rippers which support it.

........

The AR column, instead of Yes / No could be the version of AR, ie 1 or 2, or No.
Added to todo list.

QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 28 2010, 01:34) *
Unless there are some objections, I'd like to remove the row and add a footnote to the metadata entry for dBpoweramp. I think the same should be done for the CUETool DB with a footnote added to its entry in the AccurateRip row. Perhaps the row be renamed to something that describes what the two services do.

QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 28 2010, 03:45) *
FWIW, I considered making mention of PerfectMeta, but figured that it already took the crown in that row. I still feel it should be included, BTW, though perhaps is should be noted that some of those options cost $$$(?).
I suggest "Compare Meta-Data from multiple sources" is removed, "Metadata lookup" renamed to "Metadata" and a footnote added saying: "Dbpoweramp is unique in being able to compare metadata from several sources automatically to eliminate erroneous data. This function is bought as a subscription service called PerfectMeta™".
I think CUETools_db should be a separate feature from AR. To me it adds completely different functionality.

QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 28 2010, 01:34) *
I also think that the (natively) part be removed from the artwork and that the entries be done in a similar fashion as the metadata. Entries designed in such a way as to limit information should be avoided.
I think "Download Album Art (natively)" should just be "Album Art". If there is a plugin it should show in the table.

QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 28 2010, 01:37) *
I have an objection with footnote 4 since it implies that dBpoweramp is the only current ripper that can check your rips against different pressings, especially considering that it isn't even the first ripper to be able to do this.

QUOTE (Eli @ Jul 28 2010, 02:16) *
Footnote 4 is correct in that dBpoweramp is the only current ripper to support AR2. But you are also correct in that others support checking against different pressings. Does it warrant 3 rows; accuraterip support, cross pressing checks, and accuraterip 2 support? That would be most accurate, but also somewhat combersome.

Two rows. AR row can state the version number instead of yes/no; checking for different pressings/offsets another. I'm personally not so concerned about limiting the number of rows. To me there is some way to go before it becomes too much.

QUOTE (Eli @ Jul 28 2010, 05:03) *
Sorry, a request was made to help build the chart. I actually spent an hour making changes last night. However, when I saved they were lost. I think someone else was editing at the same time. Wasn't aware I needed to make the argument before making the change, but feel I can support it.
I'm sorry to hear work was lost. It really shouldn't be possible. As far as I know the wiki is suppose to warn in case someone else is editing. And in either case your version should have been saved in the history. Any help is greatly appreciated. If someone disagrees it can always be discussed and changed
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greynol
post Jul 29 2010, 01:57
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QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 28 2010, 16:15) *
Why is over-reading in the cache column?
It is the mechanism by which the audio cache is cleared. I decided to cite specific methods available in order to remove an unnecessary row.

QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 28 2010, 16:15) *
Why does "no" have a different color for C2?
Some C2 pointer implementations aren't much better than not having C2 pointer support at all, especially when used with drives that do not provide them or aren't accurate and thorough when reporting errors that could not be corrected, so not having that feature isn't necessarily a bad thing.

QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 28 2010, 16:15) *
I think some explanation of the C2 pointers is needed.
I agree completely and think this should be done for many of the categories. The same problem exists with the lossless comparison table as well. I'm not sure how it should be structured in the wiki, but I'd be more than happy to add the information once the structure is in place.

QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 28 2010, 16:15) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 27 2010, 17:14) *
Careful about post-processing. With at least dBpoweramp and Rip, AR is more integrated into the ripping process; decisions are made based on its results. In the case of dBpoweramp, any combination of results from multiple passes that differ are checked against the database.
"Ripping process" can be renamed to "data acquisition" and "Post processing etc." just to "Additional features". This will suffice?
Sure.

We also need to do something about gaps and CUE sheets since the two really go hand in hand. Saying that EAC provides different types only tells half the story.

QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 28 2010, 16:15) *
Any help is greatly appreciated. If someone disagrees it can always be discussed and changed
I fully agree and feel that I overreacted and have been hypocritical. My apologies to Eli.


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Jan S.
post Jul 29 2010, 23:56
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 29 2010, 02:57) *
QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 28 2010, 16:15) *
Why is over-reading in the cache column?
It is the mechanism by which the audio cache is cleared. I decided to cite specific methods available in order to remove an unnecessary row.
Hmm. So we need another row for the overreading (leadin/leadout) feature or am I lost?


QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 29 2010, 02:57) *
QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 28 2010, 16:15) *
I think some explanation of the C2 pointers is needed.
I agree completely and think this should be done for many of the categories. The same problem exists with the lossless comparison table as well. I'm not sure how it should be structured in the wiki, but I'd be more than happy to add the information once the structure is in place.
I have tried to organize all the pages related to cd ripping. We have a big big big mess IMO. A lot if information is hidden in program specific pages fx. offset. I think things like this is a major problem for the table we are trying to create and will have to be sorted out before we can figure what needs to be explained specifically in the comparison page. Ideas for structuring the categorization is more than welcome. And people that would like to split things like the offset and C2 pointers are also in want. IMO the page on secure ripping should be much more limited with references to separate pages explaining the different features/technologies.
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greynol
post Jul 30 2010, 01:13
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QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 29 2010, 15:56) *

Very little of the information written in that link is correct. After finishing this post I will be removing the offending parts.


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Posts in this topic
- Jan S.   Call for capable people to do a comparison of rippers   Jul 26 2010, 00:13
- - willow   I'm having the impression that novadays CD dri...   Jul 26 2010, 12:38
- - Jan S.   Did you account for offset and difference in heade...   Jul 26 2010, 13:26
- - Jan S.   I have filled some of the table but at this point ...   Jul 27 2010, 00:22
- - greynol   "Capable of disabling C2" needs to be re...   Jul 27 2010, 00:36
|- - greynol   Noting a recent addition made by Eli, I'd like...   Jul 28 2010, 00:34
|- - Eli   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 26 2010, 16:36) I al...   Jul 28 2010, 01:16
- - Jan S.   * AR2 dropped and footnote added * dropped dppower...   Jul 27 2010, 01:01
- - greynol   I would think that anything hitting that chart sho...   Jul 27 2010, 01:10
- - greynol   When you tell EAC that your drive has Accurate Str...   Jul 27 2010, 01:18
- - greynol   I've made quite a few updates. Please review ...   Jul 27 2010, 07:22
- - spoon   HTOA has been supported since dBpoweramp R13 (it i...   Jul 27 2010, 10:14
|- - greynol   QUOTE (spoon @ Jul 27 2010, 02:14) Accura...   Jul 27 2010, 16:07
- - stevenmmm   MusicBee supports many of the ripping features lis...   Jul 27 2010, 11:42
|- - Jan S.   I have reorganized the table and added info. QUOT...   Jul 27 2010, 14:36
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 27 2010, 06:36) you a...   Jul 27 2010, 16:09
- - greynol   Careful about post-processing. With at least dBpo...   Jul 27 2010, 16:14
- - spoon   QUOTE Is the table correct now with regards to dbp...   Jul 27 2010, 16:20
- - greynol   From my understanding it wasn't a blanket chec...   Jul 27 2010, 16:28
- - spoon   It suggests that both CRCs are calculated, for eve...   Jul 27 2010, 20:16
- - greynol   I don't see how you can say that. It's pr...   Jul 27 2010, 20:24
- - spoon   >offset is largely determined through mathemati...   Jul 27 2010, 20:27
- - greynol   I just want to make sure that you realize that the...   Jul 27 2010, 20:42
- - spoon   The code suggests that all effective CRCs for +-5 ...   Jul 27 2010, 21:07
- - greynol   That seems to be the most plausible explanation; a...   Jul 27 2010, 21:25
- - spoon   >I don't understand why you would say it we...   Jul 27 2010, 21:42
- - greynol   I don't see how it could be when the two metho...   Jul 27 2010, 21:50
- - spoon   A bad collision is like playing the lottery, the m...   Jul 27 2010, 22:06
- - greynol   Duh, I get it now. Thanks spoon! CUETools do...   Jul 27 2010, 23:37
- - greynol   I'm starting to think that just specifying Win...   Jul 27 2010, 23:51
- - greynol   I have an objection with footnote 4 since it impli...   Jul 28 2010, 00:37
- - greynol   I think there is a way to generalize rows that and...   Jul 28 2010, 02:45
|- - Eli   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 27 2010, 21:45) dBpo...   Jul 28 2010, 04:03
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Eli @ Jul 27 2010, 20:03) I'm ...   Jul 28 2010, 04:19
|- - Eli   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 27 2010, 23:19) QUOT...   Jul 28 2010, 22:33
- - greynol   Maybe Jan feels differently, but I thought it a go...   Jul 28 2010, 04:18
- - Jan S.   Why is over-reading in the cache column?Why does ...   Jul 29 2010, 00:15
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 28 2010, 16:15) Why i...   Jul 29 2010, 01:57
|- - Jan S.   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 29 2010, 02:57) QUOT...   Jul 29 2010, 23:56
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 29 2010, 15:56) So we...   Jul 30 2010, 01:06
||- - mjb2006   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 29 2010, 18:06) QUOT...   Jul 30 2010, 10:41
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jul 29 2010, 15:56) C2 p...   Jul 30 2010, 01:13
- - Jan S.   I have implemented some of suggested changes. Befo...   Jul 30 2010, 14:16
- - greynol   I think adding a row about AR results across multi...   Jul 30 2010, 19:07
|- - Jan S.   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 30 2010, 20:07) I th...   Jul 30 2010, 19:24
- - Jan S.   FYI I found this in XLD changelog:QUOTE Added opti...   Jul 30 2010, 19:11
- - greynol   Thanks Jan. I will edit the table accordingly to ...   Jul 30 2010, 19:21
- - greynol   The argument boils down to how likely a ripping er...   Jul 30 2010, 19:51
- - greynol   fb2k entry updated and other minor edits. I put N...   Jul 30 2010, 21:28
- - spoon   CDex should be added to the table, it is still wid...   Jul 30 2010, 22:00
- - greynol   >not a theory it is a fact You're right sp...   Jul 30 2010, 22:16
|- - Jan S.   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 30 2010, 23:16) ...   Jul 30 2010, 22:32
- - greynol   I won't shed a tear to see it gone, but it lic...   Jul 30 2010, 22:39
|- - Jan S.   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 30 2010, 23:39) I wo...   Jul 30 2010, 22:51
- - Pepzhez   There is no proprietary method of cache defeat in ...   Jul 30 2010, 23:10
- - greynol   Items that are left blank or are vague are in need...   Jul 31 2010, 00:52
- - Pepzhez   Filling in the gaps for XLD -- Image as single fi...   Jul 31 2010, 04:58
|- - Jan S.   QUOTE (Pepzhez @ Jul 31 2010, 05:58) Fill...   Jul 31 2010, 11:18
- - Porcus   One year and a half gone since this discussion, th...   Feb 15 2012, 11:10
- - Porcus   Considering the knowledgebase is open for edit ......   Oct 7 2012, 10:11


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