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MP3s generated with dbpoweramp not gapless
dancrocker
post Jan 15 2010, 23:58
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I hope this is the right forum and that this topic hasn't been beaten to death. I apologize if I'm wrong on either of these. I searched but didn't find the answer I was looking for. Of course, the amount of info here is a bit overwhelming smile.gif

I used dbpoweramp to rip to FLAC, then generate 320kbit CBR MP3s. ITunes plays them gaplessly as does foobar2000. However, my iPod (5th generation) does not. There's a teeny "gap" (more like a glitch). My iPhone 3G doesn't play them gaplessly either although the "gap" is more like a click. Meanwhile, MP3s generated by iTunes play on the iPod perfectly.

I know, years ago, there was a lot of noise about apple not supporting gapless. But, I thought this was all resolved. Certainly, it appears to work fine if the MP3s are encoded with iTunes.

Is this a well-known problem? I found some other posts that seemed to say that LAME encoded MP3s (which is what dbpoweramp uses) play gaplessly on iPods. So, I'm puzzled as to while I'm having this trouble. I'd appreciate any help or suggestions.
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kornchild2002
post Jan 17 2010, 08:33
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We could determine if the gap is really an issue or if you are being overly picky. Don't take that negatively. I have seen many people post about iPods not being truly gapless when they can hear a faint click and/or if the music pauses for a millisecond. I then listened to a sample and it turned out that the performance was completely normal.

Another option I haven't thought of (I don't know why) is that you should restore your iPod and then sync the content back on it. This will erase absolutely everything on the iPod putting it back to factory standards. Restoring iPods often fixes their problems and it helps to eliminate sources of problems.
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2Bdecided
post Jan 18 2010, 10:39
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 17 2010, 07:33) *
We could determine if the gap is really an issue or if you are being overly picky. Don't take that negatively. I have seen many people post about iPods not being truly gapless when they can hear a faint click and/or if the music pauses for a millisecond. I then listened to a sample and it turned out that the performance was completely normal.
I don't have an iPod, but are you saying that gapless = not quite gapless?!

FWIW "gapless" mp3s (lame, or otherwise) aren't necessarily "glitchless" unless you use pcutmp3 to do the job properly - which gives true gapless and glitchless playback on software that reads the lame header properly (e.g. fb2k). It may not help with an iPod (unless RockBoxed) - it might even confuse it. I don't know!

(You can also make truly gapless+glitchless mp3s using the depreciated lame "nogap" switch - but this isn't recommended, and I don't know how that'll interract with an iPod either).

Cheers,
David.
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kornchild2002
post Jan 18 2010, 17:33
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 18 2010, 02:39) *
I don't have an iPod, but are you saying that gapless = not quite gapless?!


Not at all. However, there are some instances when the transition from one song to the next is not smooth. I have heard this on my iPod a couple of times with Nero AAC files. There is a slight (less than one second) pause or click that can be heard when going from one song to another. So iPods are gapless but there are some instances where it might not be perfect (as with any technology). With the other person that I helped, we were able to download the sample and put it in an application. The little click/gap was actually around 0.3 seconds long. It wasn't anything to get all up in arms over.

So all I am saying is that gapless playback may have some instances (in my experience, these are few and far between if I even notice them at all) where it isn't truly gapless. It would be nice to determine if the OP is experiencing behavior like this or if there is an actual problem.
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DonP
post Jan 19 2010, 13:41
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 18 2010, 11:33) *
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 18 2010, 02:39) *
I don't have an iPod, but are you saying that gapless = not quite gapless?!


Not at all. However, there are some instances when the transition from one song to the next is not smooth. I have heard this on my iPod a couple of times with Nero AAC files. There is a slight (less than one second) pause or click that can be heard when going from one song to another. So iPods are gapless but there are some instances where it might not be perfect (as with any technology). With the other person that I helped, we were able to download the sample and put it in an application. The little click/gap was actually around 0.3 seconds long. It wasn't anything to get all up in arms over.

So all I am saying is that gapless playback may have some instances (in my experience, these are few and far between if I even notice them at all) where it isn't truly gapless. It would be nice to determine if the OP is experiencing behavior like this or if there is an actual problem.


Less than 1 second? 0.3 seconds? Just what do you think "gapless" means? AFAIK the gap in mp3 that lame nogap addresses is on the order of 15 milliseconds.
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kornchild2002
post Jan 19 2010, 15:45
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QUOTE (DonP @ Jan 19 2010, 05:41) *
Less than 1 second? 0.3 seconds? Just what do you think "gapless" means? AFAIK the gap in mp3 that lame nogap addresses is on the order of 15 milliseconds.


I understand what gapless means. However, that doesn't mean that the iPod will always perform perfectly. That is what I have been trying to say. My experience with hard drive iPods is that gapless playback is not always 100% accurate. I am not sure where this comes from but my 5G 60GB iPod and 120GB iPod classic have both performed like this. About one song in a few thousand will not transition correctly. Whether I am being "too forgiving" or not, that is up to opinion. I don't think that hearing a small gap (if I even notice it) in a group of ~2000 songs is an issue.
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DonP
post Jan 19 2010, 16:35
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 19 2010, 09:45) *
My experience with hard drive iPods is that gapless playback is not always 100% accurate. I am not sure where this comes from but my 5G 60GB iPod and 120GB iPod classic have both performed like this. About one song in a few thousand will not transition correctly.


OK... looks like the issue is that the mechanical drive may not fetch the new file in the time allowed for by the firmware. Maybe the drive is too fragmented.

I did have the same issue with my old Riovolt (CDR player.) It did gapless vorbis ok with a CDR that was written all at once, but with a CDRW formatted for "drag, drop, delete" fetching the new file often involved too many head seeks and took too long.

This post has been edited by DonP: Jan 19 2010, 16:37
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kornchild2002
post Jan 19 2010, 19:08
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QUOTE (DonP @ Jan 19 2010, 08:35) *
OK... looks like the issue is that the mechanical drive may not fetch the new file in the time allowed for by the firmware. Maybe the drive is too fragmented.


I was thinking that it might be mechanical in that the hard drive is spinning up and filling the temporary memory while the software continues to play the music in the temp memory. I cannot verify this though as my 5G 60GB iPod and 120GB iPod classic models are in thick iSkin cases. I cannot feel or hear the hard drive spinning in those cases. It takes a few minutes to carefully take the case off and another few minutes to put it back on. So the problem I am talking about might occur on the rare occasion when the iPod's hard drive is spinning up and filling the temp memory while the software is switching from one song to the next one being loaded.

Based on what the OP is saying, I don't think this is the issue though. My reason for posting about it was to determine if the OP was experiencing this type of issue or is actually having gapless playback problems on their iPod. It sounds like iTunes is not scanning the files for gapless playback. The iPod does not rely on song metadata for gapless playback. Instead, iTunes scans the files and essentially tells the iPod how to play them back. iPods get most of their information from iTunes whether it is non-embedded album art, location of the files on the iPod's hard drive, gapless playback information, playlists, etc. Files will not playback gaplessly unless iTunes scans them before syncing to the iPod. dan reports never seeing iTunes scan the files. This makes me believe that iTunes is not scanning the files hence they aren't playing back gaplessly. There are over 5000 Lame mp3 files on my iPod yet I haven't experienced issues (aside from the one I mentioned but that occurs with Lame mp3, Nero AAC, and iTunes AAC files; it is also normal behavior for hard drive iPods and hardly noticeable; I didn't have this issue with my 1G 16GB iPod touch).

I should have said that all of the mp3 files I tested used ID3v2.3 tags only. Also, I found out that the problematic files have to be deleted from iTunes (but not the computer), iTunes has to be restarted, and then the files can be added back to iTunes. That will force iTunes to re-scan the files for gapless playback.

edit: grammar

This post has been edited by kornchild2002: Jan 19 2010, 19:09
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garym
post Jan 19 2010, 20:53
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for the record, my mp3 files that work properly (gapless) are also all ID3v2.3 (only), tagged with either dbpa, mp3tag, or foobar (with compatibility mode turned on).
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Posts in this topic
- dancrocker   MP3s generated with dbpoweramp not gapless   Jan 15 2010, 23:58
- - kornchild2002   I have thousands of Lame mp3 files on my 120GB iPo...   Jan 16 2010, 00:08
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 15 2010, 18:08...   Jan 16 2010, 00:16
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 15 2010, 16:16) I...   Jan 16 2010, 03:21
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 15 2010, 21:21...   Jan 16 2010, 18:30
|- - maggior   QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 16 2010, 13:30) T...   Jan 19 2010, 21:15
|- - garym   QUOTE (maggior @ Jan 19 2010, 15:15) I...   Jan 19 2010, 21:22
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (maggior @ Jan 19 2010, 15:15) QUOT...   Jan 20 2010, 04:53
|- - lukpac   QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 19 2010, 21:53) I...   Jul 11 2012, 20:15
|- - lukpac   Bump?   Oct 15 2013, 03:20
- - Teknojnky   its the 'force iso compatibility' option. ...   Jan 16 2010, 00:35
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (Teknojnky @ Jan 15 2010, 18:35) it...   Jan 16 2010, 00:38
- - maggior   Are you using a paid for version of dbPowerAmp or ...   Jan 16 2010, 03:37
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (maggior @ Jan 15 2010, 21:37) Are ...   Jan 16 2010, 18:34
|- - garym   Do you have replaygain turned on (or SOUNDCHECK in...   Jan 16 2010, 20:07
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (garym @ Jan 16 2010, 14:07) Do you...   Jan 16 2010, 23:41
- - spoon   >dbPowerAmp or the free version? The free versi...   Jan 16 2010, 11:35
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 16 2010, 05:35) >db...   Jan 16 2010, 18:25
|- - maggior   QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 16 2010, 06:35) >db...   Jan 19 2010, 21:04
- - kornchild2002   Would you be willing to upload a 30 second sample ...   Jan 17 2010, 03:37
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 16 2010, 21:37...   Jan 17 2010, 06:43
- - kornchild2002   We could determine if the gap is really an issue o...   Jan 17 2010, 08:33
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 17 2010, 02:33...   Jan 18 2010, 05:08
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 17 2010, 07:33...   Jan 18 2010, 10:39
|- - garym   can't help here but just to note that I have 1...   Jan 18 2010, 15:18
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 18 2010, 02:39) I ...   Jan 18 2010, 17:33
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 18 2010, 16:33...   Jan 19 2010, 07:51
|- - DonP   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 18 2010, 11:33...   Jan 19 2010, 13:41
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (DonP @ Jan 19 2010, 05:41) Less th...   Jan 19 2010, 15:45
|- - DonP   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 19 2010, 09:45...   Jan 19 2010, 16:35
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (DonP @ Jan 19 2010, 08:35) OK... l...   Jan 19 2010, 19:08
|- - garym   for the record, my mp3 files that work properly (g...   Jan 19 2010, 20:53
- - kornchild2002   Well, figuring out if you were being too picky wou...   Jan 18 2010, 05:13
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 17 2010, 23:13...   Jan 18 2010, 23:47
|- - garym   QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 18 2010, 17:47) A...   Jan 18 2010, 23:53
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (garym @ Jan 18 2010, 17:53) QUOTE ...   Jan 19 2010, 01:00
|- - garym   I recall that you said you are creating "320k...   Jan 19 2010, 01:08
- - spoon   On one of the tracks which has problems: Re-Rip t...   Jan 18 2010, 17:56
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 18 2010, 11:56) On one...   Jan 19 2010, 01:49
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 18 2010, 19:49) Q...   Jan 19 2010, 02:27
- - Case   Little off topic but I can't let kornchild2002...   Jan 18 2010, 20:03
- - greynol   If the tracks are protected by copyright, then yes...   Jan 19 2010, 01:57
- - kornchild2002   Well, just to try to further help you, I have trie...   Jan 19 2010, 02:47
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 18 2010, 20:47...   Jan 19 2010, 03:26
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 18 2010, 19:26) T...   Jan 19 2010, 06:01
- - dancrocker   I decided to play around with the command line ver...   Jan 19 2010, 05:11
- - greynol   The --nogap option is really old and pretty much u...   Jan 19 2010, 06:31
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 19 2010, 00:31) The ...   Jan 19 2010, 07:37
|- - robert   @dancrocker Do you add tags like APE or an additio...   Jan 19 2010, 13:37
||- - dancrocker   QUOTE (robert @ Jan 19 2010, 07:37) @danc...   Jan 20 2010, 04:36
|- - DonP   QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 19 2010, 01:37) I...   Jan 19 2010, 13:44
|- - greynol   QUOTE (DonP @ Jan 19 2010, 04:44) The opt...   Jan 19 2010, 16:42
- - greynol   Nope, though I have no idea what the problem is wi...   Jan 19 2010, 07:40
- - spoon   I might be wrong but I am sure that iTunes determi...   Jan 19 2010, 10:07
|- - greynol   QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 19 2010, 02:07) I migh...   Oct 15 2013, 13:56
|- - lukpac   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 15 2013, 06:56) I ha...   Oct 15 2013, 14:02
- - kornchild2002   As I have said, iTunes scans my Lame mp3 files dur...   Jan 20 2010, 20:49
|- - greynol   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 20 2010, 11:49...   Jan 20 2010, 20:55
|- - garym   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 20 2010, 14:55) QUOT...   Jan 20 2010, 21:15
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 20 2010, 12:55) So w...   Jan 20 2010, 22:13
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 20 2010, 16:13...   Jan 20 2010, 23:22
- - kornchild2002   Just make sure that you aren't playing music w...   Jan 20 2010, 23:37
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 20 2010, 17:37...   Jan 21 2010, 17:42
- - kornchild2002   Not necessarily. For example, back when the Nero ...   Jan 21 2010, 18:52
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 21 2010, 12:52...   Jan 21 2010, 20:02
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 21 2010, 14:02) Q...   Jan 24 2010, 01:20
- - kornchild2002   Ooops, I didn't see your reply. Did you delet...   Jan 27 2010, 17:31
|- - dancrocker   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 27 2010, 11:31...   Feb 1 2010, 20:15
- - greynol   The gapless information used by the iPod is not wh...   Feb 1 2010, 20:20
- - kornchild2002   Right. In my experience, it helps to delete the s...   Feb 1 2010, 23:52
- - probedb   Create a new thread, you're bumping a thread t...   Oct 15 2013, 13:33
- - greynol   Bumping is better than creating a new thread. Ple...   Oct 15 2013, 13:50
- - greynol   Restarting iTunes initiates the scan. It happens e...   Oct 15 2013, 14:05


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