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TOS #9 and pirated music, copy protection, local laws, Split from: "TOS Violators - How Should We Respond?" (75498)
extrabigmehdi
post Nov 2 2009, 22:48
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@2Bdecided
QUOTE
I'd be happier if downloading and working with pirated music wasn't an acceptable subject to discuss and encourage on this forum, but I don't think the TOS goes that far. Hence this discussion.

In my country (Morocco), Piracy is the least of concern. I find this strict behavior highly inappropriate from where I live, but I can understand rules.
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Synthetic Soul
post Nov 3 2009, 10:15
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@carpman

I don't have time to respond to your numerous points individually; however I will make these general points:
  • I have not called for the TOS to be changed to a moral standpoint.
  • I stated "considering both the law and our own moral code": I do (surprisingly) understand that morality is subjective.
  • I did not state that all laws are moral, only that it is immoral to advise an innocent to break the law. I am not saying that laws should never be broken, but IMHO they should only be broken by those who understand the law, and why they are breaking it.
My final post in this thread, as I seem to be dragging it off-topic.


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Garf
post Nov 6 2009, 08:34
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QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Nov 2 2009, 00:03) *
QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Nov 1 2009, 23:29) *
What about fair use
AFAIK that's not in their vocabulary.
From the Dutch Wikipedia:
QUOTE
Fair use: In de Verenigde Staten staat de fair use doctrine toe kopieŽn te maken van een beperkt deel van eigendomsrechtelijk werk, dat wil zeggen voor bepaalde doeleinden, zoals onderwijs, kritieken en hekelingen. Ook is het in het algemeen toegestaan om voor eigen gebruik kopieŽn te maken van werken die men in het bezit heeft, mits die niet verder verspreid worden. Vanwege het territorialiteitsbeginsel heeft deze regeling echter geen enkele rechtskracht in Europa.
Freely translated: the fair use doctrine doesn't work in Europe.


That's correct. However Dutch law does have provisions for citation rights, which could be seen as a more limited version of the fair use doctrine. I believe short clips as they are currently used on HA should fall under this.
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Soap
post Nov 6 2009, 14:46
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At the risk of sounding wishy-washy and morally relativist, I am strongly against attempts to create iron-clad rules to cover all situations. Zero-tolerance policies which attempt to leave no areas of gray and remove all expectations of reasonable behavior from those in charge of enforcement inevitably lead to extremes such as the banning of fingernail clippers in public schools. wink.gif

I, personally, feel that TOS #9 is fine the way that it is, and that the only problem is the users. (The moderators here all seem quite reasonable.)

IF there is a problem, IMHO, it is of certain users of this forum which don't accept their place. As a user, when one encounters a stupid punk apparently trying to get help for their "less-than-morally-acquired-files" I feel there is only two proper responses for me:
1 - IGNORE IT: I don't need to help someone whose practices I dislike.
2 - Report it to a mod: If I feel it is pushing the line (or even over) I can always state my case to the authorities (mods).

What I DO feel is wrong, though, is for me (a user) to attempt to scold or correct or otherwise impose my PoV on the other myself. This board is very well moderated and while the individual in question might not get dealt with this very minute I sleep soundly knowing that in the end discussion is always lead back on track.



Now, you might ask what the above adds to the current conversation, and I understand your confusion. I am simply trying to say that I think the only problem on this board is not a weak or ambiguous TOS #9, but rather some users who wish they were mods.




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2Bdecided
post Nov 6 2009, 15:59
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I think that sums up the current situation (though if you mean I wish I was a mod - I turned that down when HA was launched).

Maybe there's something to be said for "wishy-washy". It leaves me free to have discussions that might be "illegal" in some countries.

Then again, I think Hydrogenaudio is becoming something of an "authority" on audio on the net - increasingly so. This is good. Letting people ask about CD rips they've downloaded doesn't help. IMO.

Cheers,
David.
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Canar
post Nov 6 2009, 16:48
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The Terms of Service are there for us moderators to use in keeping the site clean, generally speaking. Obviously some things like ToS #9 are legally obligatory for us to enforce, but we're generally quite lenient about enforcement, in general. I know I am, anyhow. The enforcement of the Terms of Service is an inherently subjective task. It is subject to interpretation, both of the offending post and the ToS itself. The ToS works for us, we don't work for it.

This post has been edited by Canar: Nov 6 2009, 16:48


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Soap
post Nov 7 2009, 00:07
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 6 2009, 10:59) *
(though if you mean I wish I was a mod - I turned that down when HA was launched).


No, not at all - I honestly wasn't thinking of any specific person at all. Hope it didn't come across as even a backhanded accusation.


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southisup
post Dec 2 2009, 03:15
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QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Nov 3 2009, 01:29) *
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 2 2009, 10:31) *
btw, it's correct that in the UK, almost all copying is technically illegal. The law is long overdue an update, and this is accepted, so it's ignored. This is a poor situation.
Here's an article on the BBC in which the BPI state that they will "turn a blind eye" to users copying for their own use (but the law says it is still illegal).

I was going to quote the same article:
QUOTE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5053658.stm @ Jun 6 2006)
Peter Jamieson, chairman of the British Phonographic Industry, ... told the Commons select committee for culture, media and sport that he wanted to "make it unequivocally clear to the consumer that if they copy their CDs for their own private use in order to move the music from format to format, we will not pursue them".

...and also these two more recent ones:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7176538.stm
QUOTE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7176538.stm @ Jan 8 2008)
Copying music from a CD to a home computer could be made legal under new proposals from the UK government.
Millions of people already "rip" discs to their computers and move the files to MP3 players, although the process is technically against copyright law.
Intellectual property minister Lord Triesman said the law should be changed so it "keeps up with the times".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8000876.stm
QUOTE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8000876.stm @ Apr 15 2009)
"It is currently a copyright violation [in the UK] to rip a CD that you own on to your PC or iPod," said Consumer Focus, "even though over half (55%) of British consumers admit to doing it and three in five (59%) think this type of copying is perfectly legal."

But I was unexpectedly put in hospital for a month. I'm out now, & recovering. Sorry for resurrecting this - just wanted to tidy things up.
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