IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
TOS Violators - How Should We Respond?
Snash
post Oct 16 2009, 21:16
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 28-December 05
Member No.: 26685



I think we are generally too harsh with people who violate the TOS. This probably makes some who would otherwise be level-headed push back even harder. Many people are not used to reading, much less following, a site's TOS. HA is to be commended for its adherance to to its TOS, but its enforcement could use tweaking.

I would like to propose the following:

1. When someone violates a TOS a friendly note is posted in the thread (and sent as a private message) that:
a. Notifies them that they violated the TOS
b. Summarizes the TOS they violated
c. Provides a link the the TOS
d. Informs them the thread is locked

(Flagrant, repeat violators would be banned)

2. Create a new forum to debate each of the TOSs.

3. Make a new TOS that the TOSs can only be debated in the TOS Forum.

I think this approach will reduce the TOS flame wars that ensue every few days, improving the SNR on some threads

I hope this post is taken in the spirit of trying to improve the quality of an already high-quality forum.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Frank Bicking
post Oct 16 2009, 22:24
Post #2





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 1832
Joined: 24-July 02
From: Berlin, Germany
Member No.: 2776



1. That is already happening, except for the warning system being private.

2. This subforum is perfectly suited for general discussion about the terms of service. For example, see the recent thread about TOS #9 and copy-protected CDs. However, individual complaints should be directed to a staff member in private. Topics like "I have been warned: discuss" would be a bad idea.

About flame wars: since we cannot read all posts in quickly progressing threads in realtime, we rely on members to problematic posts before things get out of hand.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
woody_woodward
post Oct 16 2009, 22:33
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 348
Joined: 21-August 02
Member No.: 3138



QUOTE (Frank Bicking @ Oct 16 2009, 14:24) *
... However, individual complaints should be directed to a staff member in private.


Amen

Woody
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Jens Rex
post Oct 16 2009, 23:53
Post #4





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 605
Joined: 18-December 01
Member No.: 680



1.) Discussion of TOS violations do not belong in threads where they occur. Such a discussion is irrelevant and uninteresting to other members, and derail the thread. Such matters are dealt with between the offender and the moderation, privately.

2.) The TOS is not up for debate, except amongst the moderators/admins.

3.) TOS discussions belong in this subforum, Site Related Discussion. See also 2.)
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
extrabigmehdi
post Oct 17 2009, 00:53
Post #5





Group: Members
Posts: 408
Joined: 15-August 09
Member No.: 72330



I suggest that you raise the maximum number of warnings from 3 to 4,
considering how easily newcomers can burn them.

How long does it take to cancel a warning ?
It it automated, or the moderators have to take actions ?
Also what about temporary bans (limited number of month)
instead of a definitive ones ?



Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Soap
post Oct 17 2009, 02:54
Post #6





Group: Members
Posts: 1016
Joined: 19-November 06
Member No.: 37767



QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 16 2009, 19:53) *
I suggest that you raise the maximum number of warnings from 3 to 4,
considering how easily newcomers can burn them.

Also what about temporary bans (limited number of month)
instead of a definitive ones ?


Is HA so hard up for members they should put up with, and waste resources nurturing jerks back to health?

I mean - I have a big rash mouth and never had a "Warn" level over 0%.

This post has been edited by Soap: Oct 17 2009, 02:55


--------------------
Creature of habit.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
GHammer
post Oct 17 2009, 03:29
Post #7





Group: Members
Posts: 224
Joined: 11-May 03
From: China
Member No.: 6546



I like things the way they are. Ifthis forum changed to look like other places, it would be way less useful to me.

The are plenty of open/loose/'friendly' places. I rarely frequent them.

This place has been a valuable resource over the years. Leave it alone.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Canar
post Oct 17 2009, 04:26
Post #8





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 3361
Joined: 26-July 02
From: princegeorge.ca
Member No.: 2796



The terms of service here are either common-sense or technically-motivated. There are a lot of terms-of-service violations that get away without even a Warning, just a verbal mention. On the other hand, there are times when terms-of-service violations must be dealt with firmly.

As far as I am concerned, I wouldn't change a thing. Behave or leave.


--------------------
You cannot ABX the rustling of jimmies.
No mouse? No problem.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Jens Rex
post Oct 17 2009, 08:47
Post #9





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 605
Joined: 18-December 01
Member No.: 680



QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 17 2009, 01:53) *
I suggest that you raise the maximum number of warnings from 3 to 4,
considering how easily newcomers can burn them.

A 100% warning level does not equal a ban. Warning levels are not publicly visible either.

QUOTE
How long does it take to cancel a warning ?
It it automated, or the moderators have to take actions ?

It is semi-automated, but is usually considered on a case-by-case basis.

QUOTE
Also what about temporary bans (limited number of month)
instead of a definitive ones ?

We already do this. There are steps between warnings and bans that are frequently employed. Let me show you the warning panel.

Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
extrabigmehdi
post Oct 17 2009, 13:48
Post #10





Group: Members
Posts: 408
Joined: 15-August 09
Member No.: 72330



@JensRex
Thanks for clearing things up.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Synthetic Soul
post Oct 18 2009, 08:45
Post #11





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4887
Joined: 12-August 04
From: Exeter, UK
Member No.: 16217



I've said this many times now, but the issue discussed here again revolves around the fact that some members may see a warning as a threat of a ban, rather than what it is: a warning.

I don't mean to suggest that members should not care about a warning they have been issued, but rather that they take it for what it is. Re-read the TOS, work out why you have received the warning (which may involve a PM to the mods, although hopefully should not), and choose not to repeat your mistake.

If you choose to ignore it and continue blindly, or become abusive, then you frankly deserve everything that you get.

I for one am against any argument that suggests it is the mod team's responsibilty to ensure members are familiar with the TOS; it is solely a member's own responsibility.


--------------------
I'm on a horse.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
[JAZ]
post Oct 18 2009, 12:38
Post #12





Group: Members
Posts: 1783
Joined: 24-June 02
From: Catalunya(Spain)
Member No.: 2383



I think Snash point was not so much about the moderator <-> user interaction, but the user <-> user interaction, when a TOS violation (or what seems so) appears.


Users (me included) tend to react to those comments in a way that doesn't facilitate the discussion (if it has to be one). Like sometimes having three consecutive posts saying almost the same.

What is to be talked about here is a better way to globally react to it. A protocol, if you want. How should users specifically deal with it.

A suggestion (mostly what Snash has said) could be that the first user who see that, write a post saying "Possible TOS violation" (point to the TOS), use the report button to get the attention of a moderator, then the usual moderator <-> user talk takes on (maybe temporarily closing the thread) and when the subject is cleared, allow the talk to continue.

So the questions now are:
a) Is this new regulation needed.
b) Is this method adequate
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
odyssey
post Oct 19 2009, 00:51
Post #13





Group: Members
Posts: 2296
Joined: 18-May 03
From: Denmark
Member No.: 6695



As a frequent poster and long-time user, I can say from personal experience that I think the Warning-button is sometimes being hit a little too aggressively. I think the TOS is fine in general, but sometimes a warning is a little too harsh imho, whereas some mods forget that there's actually also a PM-button... This is called dialogue - There's no such thing when a user has been warned, but I think that dialogue is often more powerful than warnings (especially with old hangouts).

Another thing that seems missing to me is dialogue between mods/admins. I got a warning once for replying to a spam-post - Actually it was a very nice post for some software I thought maybe could be useful, but I was curious as it looked somewhat commercial and wanted to see if he intended to respond to the thread (which would not be a TOS-violation then) - So I posted asking for the price of the software. A mod contacted me that he had deleted the thread - Very nice move. A few hours later i got warned... by ANOTHER mod!


--------------------
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Yirkha
post Oct 19 2009, 02:14
Post #14





Group: FB2K Moderator
Posts: 2359
Joined: 30-November 07
Member No.: 49158



QUOTE (odyssey @ Oct 19 2009, 01:51) *
I think the TOS is fine in general, but sometimes a warning is a little too harsh imho
Well, what's so harsh about it? The warnings are just notes from the moderators to users and also for other moderators. They could as well be called simply Notes or whatever, that might better describe what this forum software's feature is used for here on HA. Already said many times, solely 100% full warning level doesn't mean anything, any bans are decided much more thoroughly.

QUOTE (odyssey @ Oct 19 2009, 01:51) *
whereas some mods forget that there's actually also a PM-button... This is called dialogue
As a warning doesn't impact user's ability to participate in further discussion in any way, I don't see why its usage should be restricted. If somebody doesn't understand why she or he got warned, feel free to ask, we sure are open for dialogue.

QUOTE (odyssey @ Oct 19 2009, 01:51) *
Actually it was a very nice post for some software I thought maybe could be useful, but I was curious as it looked somewhat commercial and wanted to see if he intended to respond to the thread (which would not be a TOS-violation then) - So I posted asking for the price of the software.
I don't want to open old wounds and I wasn't even involved in this in any way, but that topic was a typical spam one, with big promotional images and lots of links to increase page rank. Moreover your reply was a brief "You forgot to mention pricetag.". It seems at least like a dumb move to reply in such a way, because that sentence doesn't really sound like an honest curious question to me. But anyway, if that should ever have any impact on more serious administrative action taken upon you, that post would be reviewed again, so if it were only a moderator's mistake, it wouldn't be naturally taken into account.

QUOTE (odyssey @ Oct 19 2009, 01:51) *
Another thing that seems missing to me is dialogue between mods/admins. I got a warning once for replying to a spam-post (...) A mod contacted me that he had deleted the thread - Very nice move. A few hours later i got warned... by ANOTHER mod!
Each moderator does its job here at different time, from different place, etc. Consulting each action beforehand with others is just not really feasible. As stated in the explanatory topic already linked here earlier, if you are not satisfied with your warnings, contact an admin.

This post has been edited by Yirkha: Oct 19 2009, 02:15


--------------------
Full-quoting makes you scroll past the same junk over and over.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Synthetic Soul
post Oct 19 2009, 10:45
Post #15





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4887
Joined: 12-August 04
From: Exeter, UK
Member No.: 16217



QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Oct 18 2009, 12:38) *
What is to be talked about here is a better way to globally react to it. A protocol, if you want. How should users specifically deal with it.

A suggestion (mostly what Snash has said) could be that the first user who see that, write a post saying "Possible TOS violation" (point to the TOS), use the report button to get the attention of a moderator, then the usual moderator <-> user talk takes on (maybe temporarily closing the thread) and when the subject is cleared, allow the talk to continue.
I may be missing the point, but I thought this was what the Report button was for. If you spot a post which you believe violates the TOS hit the Report button, and briefly explain why you think it has. That is all that is required. Any direct interaction with the poster is likely to drag the thread off-topic.

The above text may sound curt, I don't mean it to be. As I say, I may have missed the point. Basic upshot: if you spot a violation that has not been dealt with please use the Report button, and do not start a flame war.


--------------------
I'm on a horse.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Canar
post Oct 19 2009, 11:49
Post #16





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 3361
Joined: 26-July 02
From: princegeorge.ca
Member No.: 2796



Synthetic Soul has it exactly. ToS violators are like trolls. Don't feed them. Report them. The "Report" button is an underutilized but handy way to open a private dialog to the moderation staff.

This post has been edited by Canar: Oct 19 2009, 11:50


--------------------
You cannot ABX the rustling of jimmies.
No mouse? No problem.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Jens Rex
post Oct 19 2009, 11:58
Post #17





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 605
Joined: 18-December 01
Member No.: 680



Filing reports is much much more effective than anything else. The response time for reports is just a few minutes, most of the time.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Tahnru
post Oct 19 2009, 17:11
Post #18





Group: Members
Posts: 325
Joined: 17-October 05
From: United States
Member No.: 25178



QUOTE
The above text may sound curt, I don't mean it to be. As I say, I may have missed the point. Basic upshot: if you spot a violation that has not been dealt with please use the Report button, and do not start a flame war.


It's implied by a couple of the existing TOS, but perhaps a new rule: "Enforcement of the TOS is for the staff. Do not attempt self-enforcement by flaming." wink.gif
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Canar
post Oct 19 2009, 17:41
Post #19





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 3361
Joined: 26-July 02
From: princegeorge.ca
Member No.: 2796



That's a bad rule. I've seen users ToS8 people before, and I find it useful, as ToS8 is a more complicated rule to follow.

In short, everything's fine by us mods.


--------------------
You cannot ABX the rustling of jimmies.
No mouse? No problem.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Tahnru
post Oct 19 2009, 18:24
Post #20





Group: Members
Posts: 325
Joined: 17-October 05
From: United States
Member No.: 25178



Duly noted. On the topic of #8 (and as far as ABX tests go) would a simplified test script be a useful addition? I'd be happy to help write one.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
greynol
post Oct 19 2009, 18:56
Post #21





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10000
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



QUOTE (Canar @ Oct 19 2009, 09:41) *
I've seen users ToS8 people before, and I find it useful, as ToS8 is a more complicated rule to follow.

I completely agree with this as it concerns TOS8. For most other situations I think the report button is what should be used so that the conversation does not derail. Of course conversations can derail over TOS8 as well but it can usually be handled by a mod or admin posting something in either green or red instructing people to cease and desist or else.


--------------------
I should publish a list of forum idiots.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Akkurat
post Oct 19 2009, 20:26
Post #22


REACT Mod developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 929
Joined: 14-November 07
From: Finland
Member No.: 48750



I vote for the current system, it's working fine (from my POV).

I remember back when I was slapped with warnings and even a small suspension (oh the shame blush.gif), the forum software didn't allow me to even log out when I logged in after I was suspended. This of course meant that I couldn't read ANY topics whatsoever and only clearing out the cookie manually rectified this. Pretty dumb if you ask me. Dunno how it is working with this new forum version.

@MODS: If you "enforce mod preview", please write a note of that to the user. I was rather puzzled after my suspension when none of my posts appeared. I had no idea that my posts were suddenly pre-moderated.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
odyssey
post Oct 19 2009, 21:45
Post #23





Group: Members
Posts: 2296
Joined: 18-May 03
From: Denmark
Member No.: 6695



QUOTE (Akkurat @ Oct 19 2009, 21:26) *
...the forum software didn't allow me to even log out when I logged in after I was suspended. This of course meant that I couldn't read ANY topics whatsoever and only clearing out the cookie manually rectified this. Pretty dumb if you ask me. Dunno how it is working with this new forum version.

It's still like that. Even more stupid is that you can't see (you don't even get an e-mail) why you've been suspended!


--------------------
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Akkurat
post Oct 19 2009, 22:20
Post #24


REACT Mod developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 929
Joined: 14-November 07
From: Finland
Member No.: 48750



I almost wrote about that too but I couldn't remember if I got an email or not about the suspension. Can't you see the reason after you log in while suspended? I don't remember that either. If not, an email notification would be nice.. or the board could show the info.

EDIT: oh my, just realized that this is (probably) OT.. am I violating TOS in a "TOS Violators - How Should We Respond" topic?! rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by Akkurat: Oct 19 2009, 22:42
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
odyssey
post Oct 19 2009, 23:52
Post #25





Group: Members
Posts: 2296
Joined: 18-May 03
From: Denmark
Member No.: 6695



QUOTE (Akkurat @ Oct 19 2009, 23:20) *
Can't you see the reason after you log in while suspended?

Nope. Personally I see that as a serious bug/inconvenience that should not exist in commercial software like IPB. Also why should I delete my cookies just to at least be able to read the debate?


--------------------
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd September 2014 - 05:28