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Can IEMs be as good as full sized headphones?
udauda
post Oct 14 2009, 10:48
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I'd love to do that, but I don't have the data with me now. Sorry to disappoint you there.

The closest thing you can get from the open public is:


I believe the measurement was done by a Japanese headphone enthusiast named Fuchinove, with a DIY-silicone tube. Since above data doesn't reflect an accurate occluded-ear impedance(half-wavelength resonance @ 13kHz), you'll have to account there should be a +10dB boost around @ 10kHz. Also, you gotta keep in mind it is not a ISO-11904 diffuse-field compensated data.

When everything is properly compensated, the graph would show W3 outputting upto 10kHz(+-6dB) in addition to the high-Q deep @ 3kHz. And your statement above:
QUOTE
For stereo signals, so about 99% of all listened music, without further processing a flat headphone FR is not optimal. A headphone with a FR approximating a DF compensated FR will sound more neutral.

is exactly what ER-4S is trying to simulate, unlike the perfect DF-flat ER-4B. (Or if you're referencing this article, arguing that equalizing somewhere between DF&FF is ideal, oh no.. Almost all of the high-end headphones from AKG, Sennheiser, Grado, Beyer are accurately DF-equalized.)

By the way, I am not trying to convince you that ER4 is the greatest of all IEMs. I'm just saying more drivers don't always guarantee better performances, especially in IEMs. If you can hear 16kHz with your UM2, it should mean UM2 should have a wider FR range than W3. (and I believe UM2 has less # of drivers than W3)

This post has been edited by udauda: Oct 14 2009, 11:24
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rpp3po
post Oct 14 2009, 11:41
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QUOTE (udauda @ Oct 14 2009, 11:48) *
By the way, I am not trying to convince you that ER4 is the greatest of all IEMs. I'm just saying more drivers don't always guarantee better performances, especially in IEMs. If you can hear 16kHz with your UM2, it should mean UM2 should have a wider FR range than W3. (and I believe UM2 has less # of drivers than W3)


We can agree on that. I am just somewhat sceptic, that Westone would release such a bad high end product in their portfolio after the acclaimed UM2.
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odigg
post Oct 14 2009, 14:32
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Oct 14 2009, 06:41) *
We can agree on that. I am just somewhat sceptic, that Westone would release such a bad high end product in their portfolio after the acclaimed UM2.


Maybe the Westone UM3X is better? I've read some comments that the Westone 3 has a very "hi-fi" sound as compared to the more balanced sound of hte UM3X. Of course, without FR graphs it's hard to know.

rpp3po - you've had experience with IEMs and full sized headphones. Any comments comparing the two (beyond the obvious differences in sonic signature of two different products)?


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extrabigmehdi
post Oct 14 2009, 15:02
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@odigg
QUOTE
Maybe the Westone UM3X is better?

Yes, the Westone 3 are somehow a failure, and people at head-fi are not much interested by them.
The UM3X have a lot more success, and there's no doubt that they are good IEM from the different reviews I've seen. Now, if the use of three balanced armature is justified, that's an other question.


QUOTE
rpp3po - you've had experience with IEMs and full sized headphones. Any comments comparing the two

Why not having both ? I think both are interesting differently.
Perhaps it would be just like comparing glasses vs contact lens, they do not provide the same comfort.

AFAIK , for the same sound quality, IEMs are much more expensive, than full sized headphones.

This post has been edited by extrabigmehdi: Oct 14 2009, 15:04
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rpp3po
post Oct 14 2009, 17:32
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QUOTE (odigg @ Oct 14 2009, 15:32) *
rpp3po - you've had experience with IEMs and full sized headphones. Any comments comparing the two (beyond the obvious differences in sonic signature of two different products)?


I own Allesandro MS1 (about equivalent to Grado SR60/80), Sennheiser 595, and Westone UM2. I use the UM2 about 70% of the time, they are my greatest enjoyment. The higher SNR due to almost completely locked out external noise makes them great for recordings with a large dynamic range and for any place that is not completely silent (very rare where I live). Also most of my positive ABX results (lossy codecs) happened on the UM2. But while the UM2 are great bass players, I sometimes miss the "feeling" of bass. The MS1 and HD 595 also can't make your bones shake as speakers but at least your auricles. So for some music I still prefer my larger ones.

This post has been edited by rpp3po: Oct 14 2009, 17:44
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Soap
post Oct 14 2009, 18:24
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QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 14 2009, 10:02) *
AFAIK , for the same sound quality, IEMs are much more expensive, than full sized headphones.


? I've always heard the opposite is true.


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extrabigmehdi
post Oct 14 2009, 19:39
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@Soap
QUOTE
? I've always heard the opposite is true.


After a google search , I found this recent thread at head-fi:
Do IEM's match Traditional Can in the Sound Quality/$ Ratio?

In this thread, the overall consensus, is that in term of sound quality,
the full sized headphones are better for the the money.

I wonder how you managed to only hear the opposite.
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Ed Seedhouse
post Oct 14 2009, 20:50
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QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 14 2009, 11:39) *
After a google search , I found this recent thread at head-fi:
Do IEM's match Traditional Can in the Sound Quality/$ Ratio?

In this thread, the overall consensus, is that in term of sound quality,
the full sized headphones are better for the the money.


If that's the consensus at head-fi then I am quite certain that the exact opposite is actually true.


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tot
post Oct 14 2009, 21:33
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QUOTE (odigg @ Oct 14 2009, 15:32) *
QUOTE (rpp3po @ Oct 14 2009, 06:41) *
We can agree on that. I am just somewhat sceptic, that Westone would release such a bad high end product in their portfolio after the acclaimed UM2.


Maybe the Westone UM3X is better? I've read some comments that the Westone 3 has a very "hi-fi" sound as compared to the more balanced sound of hte UM3X. Of course, without FR graphs it's hard to know.

I have both Westone 3 and UM3X and I find UM3X clearly better and more neutral. W3 has elevated mid-bass which is not something I enjoy, it just downs the mids and makes them sound a bit muddy to me.


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andy o
post Oct 15 2009, 08:46
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QUOTE (Ed Seedhouse @ Oct 14 2009, 12:50) *
QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 14 2009, 11:39) *
After a google search , I found this recent thread at head-fi:
Do IEM's match Traditional Can in the Sound Quality/$ Ratio?

In this thread, the overall consensus, is that in term of sound quality,
the full sized headphones are better for the the money.


If that's the consensus at head-fi then I am quite certain that the exact opposite is actually true.

You cynic. How can you disagree with these slam-dunk arguments:

QUOTE (Nigel79)
Nope

QUOTE (Rise To The Top)
NEVER. Portability ALWAYS comes at a cost. ALWAYS. No exception.

QUOTE (Berlioz)
For under $150, IEM's will be hard pressed to outperform a good pair of full sized cans. As already mentioned, the ultra high end IEM's can outperform their full sized counterparts.The JH13's have been compared head to head against HD800's and have won, and this is coming from some people on this forum who I have a lot of respect for.
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odigg
post Oct 15 2009, 14:23
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QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 14 2009, 10:02) *
Why not having both ? I think both are interesting differently.
Perhaps it would be just like comparing glasses vs contact lens, they do not provide the same comfort.


When I started this thread I was just trying to get a general idea of how IEMs compare to headphones. I'm not a fan of owning 10 different pairs of headphones/IEMs so I don't want to buy stuff and just put it in the closet, which I have done already.. Compared to full sized headphones it's is also very difficult to demo IEMs and (depending on vendor) return options are limited.

I want an honest report of IEMs, the capabilities, and even technical information on armatures. On other websites I can get plenty of opinions. But they are intermixed with glorious reviews of cables, power supplies, fuses. Beyond that, a deluge of favorable reviews on some new product can turn totally sour 3-6 months later. Take the Westone 3. When it first came out people were just raving about how great it was. Now many see them as badly colored.

When you focus these trends on a $1000+ Custom IEM, purchases of this product will probably also (maybe I should run a correlation) be people who praise cables, expensive headphone amps, "audiophile" DACs, and who knows what else. So if somebody says a certain IEM is better than full sized headphones, what in the world am I supposed to believe?

Anyway, I'm ranting. The point it, if established members on HA tell me they like their IEMS, that just gives me a more balanced and honest viewpoint to work from.

QUOTE
Most of the time , the overall cost for going to customs is $1k+
And I wouldn't be surprised that each brand are boosting the price for the high end models (i.e models that allow customs) , as much as they can. Because they are reserved for the "audiophile elite" (put any joke here).


Custom IEMs can be purchased for less than $400. So there clearly isn't some essential cost/labor factor driving the cost of some custom IEMs to $1K.

This post has been edited by odigg: Oct 15 2009, 14:24
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extrabigmehdi
post Oct 15 2009, 16:31
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@odigg
QUOTE
I'm not a fan of owning 10 different pairs of headphones/IEMs so I don't want to buy stuff and just put it in the closet, which I have done already..

Well, people I've seen at head-fi are often owning multiple headphones. Instead of puting things on closet they try to resell.
When they are just curious about a headphone, some try to buy already used one at ebay.
Also it seems that some people return to the seller headphones, after quickly trying them.
But I think it's hard to compare pairs of headphones/IEMs , without collecting a minimum.

QUOTE
.So if somebody says a certain IEM is better than full sized headphones, what in the world am I supposed to believe?

You have to test yourself.
You can never trust a single review. When I can't test, I compare multiple reviews , with no warranty that I'll find the "truth".
Also , I take a look at difference websites. This involve some work.

QUOTE
When it first came out people were just raving about how great it was. Now many see them as badly colored.

They call this at head-fi forum , "fan of the month". When a new product is released everyone is excited about it, and after a month or two not that much.

Frankly, I don't feel the need to compare IEMs to full sized headphones, to enjoy them . I mean, I don't have the feeling to miss something by only using them. Portability is just a great convenience.

Also I think that buying $1k+ IEMs is a waste of money.
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Notat
post Oct 15 2009, 16:32
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QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 13 2009, 16:34) *
@Notat
QUOTE
Microphonics is translation of vibration into electricity

In the context of IEMs, the word "microphonics" is just used to talk of "the noise you get when your IEM cable brushes against clothing". I don't think there's any electricity involved here.

I can take usually care of most of the noise through the cables by routing the wires behind my ears. I was talking about LF noise created when your whole body is moved.
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extrabigmehdi
post Oct 15 2009, 18:16
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@Notat
QUOTE
I was talking about LF noise created when your whole body is moved.


Well, from a guide at head-fi:
QUOTE
Bone conduction is the phenomenon where the IEM user can hear noise (caused by body motion such as eating and walking) transmitted with in the body. [...]
Bone conduction can be limited by stop eating and walking softly (changing shoe).


You can find the guide here:
Basic Guide to In-Ear-Canalphones
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gmwiz05
post Oct 15 2009, 19:51
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QUOTE (Notat @ Oct 15 2009, 11:32) *
QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 13 2009, 16:34) *
@Notat
QUOTE
Microphonics is translation of vibration into electricity

In the context of IEMs, the word "microphonics" is just used to talk of "the noise you get when your IEM cable brushes against clothing". I don't think there's any electricity involved here.

I can take usually care of most of the noise through the cables by routing the wires behind my ears. I was talking about LF noise created when your whole body is moved.

Obviously he is talking about when the cables hit/rub up against something... it prevents from loud thumping you get from pulling and such on the cables... the pinna dampens the sound traveling in the cable because of it resting on the ear.
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Notat
post Oct 15 2009, 20:43
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QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 15 2009, 11:16) *
QUOTE
Bone conduction is the phenomenon where the IEM user can hear noise (caused by body motion such as eating and walking) transmitted with in the body. [...]
Bone conduction can be limited by stop eating and walking softly (changing shoe).


Yes, bone conduction. Is this possibly a fundamental limitation with IEMs or is there a way to design around it? Good design can minimize acoustic transmission through the cable but how do you address transmission through your bones. You don't hear so much of this with conventional headphones or speakers. Perhaps sealed ears trap and magnify internal sounds.
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steaxauce
post Oct 15 2009, 22:17
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QUOTE (odigg @ Oct 15 2009, 08:23) *
When you focus these trends on a $1000+ Custom IEM, purchases of this product will probably also (maybe I should run a correlation) be people who praise cables, expensive headphone amps, "audiophile" DACs, and who knows what else. So if somebody says a certain IEM is better than full sized headphones, what in the world am I supposed to believe?

Anyway, I'm ranting. The point it, if established members on HA tell me they like their IEMS, that just gives me a more balanced and honest viewpoint to work from.

All we can do there is to tell you about our own personal experience with them; no one can know for sure what your experience will be until you try them yourself. You can get the same thing over at head-fi. Sure, you can't trust anyone, good reviews don't guarantee anything, yada yada. But as long as HA members are doing nothing but stating their own unsubstantiated experience, without blind tests, etc, we're no more reliable than head-fiers (and still a hell of a lot more reliable than speculation based on the technical merits of the two technologies). You're just going to have to jump in sooner or later.

Another important thing to remember is that particularly with IEMs, various people will have widely varied experiences. How they end up sounding for you depends on what your ears are like; i.e. whether or not you can get a good seal and fit, and probably on how your ears/ear canals affect sound under normal circumstances (when they're not bypassed, as with IEMs). For me, I had a great deal of trouble getting a good seal with the Shure E4 and E500, all of the tips were very uncomfortable for me, there was always a severe treble rolloff (I had to EQ the hell out of them to get them to have a frequency response that was anything like what I got with any of the full-sized or earpad headphones, or even earbuds that I've owned), and bass was boomy and dull. Your mileage will vary.

Also, I want to say that in my experience, headphone reviews are much more likely to reflect their actual sound than reviews of products like DACs, amps, etc. because the differences between headphones, unlike the differences between those components, are usually above people's "psychological noise floor," i.e. the differences are pronounced enough that you can know they're not imagined. The widely varied headphone reviews, and IEM reviews in particular, accordingly, reflect different tastes and anatomies more than they reflect the fact that human beings are psychotic, unlike reviews of components with more subtle or nonexistent sound signatures.
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extrabigmehdi
post Oct 15 2009, 22:37
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@Notat
You have the same "bone conduction" problem with what they call in french "Boules Quies" or "Oropax" , which are kind of earplugs.

QUOTE
Perhaps sealed ears trap and magnify internal sounds.

Probably something like that.

The problem of bone conduction might even be worse with customs IEMs.
I read on a review about "Ultimate Ears UE 11 Pro" (cost around $1k+ ),
that "eating cornflakes while wearing the UE 11 can almost lead to noise-induced tinnitus".
The review here.

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odigg
post Oct 15 2009, 22:59
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QUOTE (udauda @ Oct 14 2009, 05:48) *
By the way, I am not trying to convince you that ER4 is the greatest of all IEMs. I'm just saying more drivers don't always guarantee better performances, especially in IEMs.


Here is a FR chart from Phonak Audeo for their PFE. This is a single driver model. As you can see the FR range extends quite far (for an IEM) in both directions.



QUOTE
But as long as HA members are doing nothing but stating their own unsubstantiated experience, without blind tests, etc, we're no more reliable than head-fiers (and still a hell of a lot more reliable than speculation based on the technical merits of the two technologies).


I agree with you to a point but I find even evaluations of transducers to be much more balanced here on HA. On many audiophile sites there is the persistent belief that expensive speakers/headphones cost that much because of engineering. People here are much more skeptical and ready to say that marketing and exclusivity can drive up MSRP, not just engineering or technical capabilities. I've seen people on Head-Fi stubbornly support audible differences between two headphones (e.g. K701 and K702) even when the manufacturer says the differences as cosmetic or something else (e.g. a split cable versus a single cable).

One of my original questions with this thread was just an inquiry into the future of IEMs. If, in the future, IEMs can sound like full sized headphones, that would be fantastic. However, if there is some inherent design limitation, like when comparing full sized headphone soundstage to speakers, then full sized headphones will always be around.

Anyway, I have found a sub $150 IEM I'm willing to experiment with and compare with my full sized cans. I'll just have to wait till it comes back in stock so I can order!

This post has been edited by odigg: Oct 15 2009, 23:01
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Goratrix
post Oct 15 2009, 23:12
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QUOTE (Notat @ Oct 15 2009, 21:43) *
QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Oct 15 2009, 11:16) *
QUOTE
Bone conduction is the phenomenon where the IEM user can hear noise (caused by body motion such as eating and walking) transmitted with in the body. [...]
Bone conduction can be limited by stop eating and walking softly (changing shoe).


Yes, bone conduction. Is this possibly a fundamental limitation with IEMs or is there a way to design around it? Good design can minimize acoustic transmission through the cable but how do you address transmission through your bones. You don't hear so much of this with conventional headphones or speakers. Perhaps sealed ears trap and magnify internal sounds.


It's a fundamental problem with IEMs, can not be fixed. Personally, I can't stand it, so all the IEM-obsessed discussions at head-fi are irrelevant to me smile.gif

Btw, if you are looking for a small earphone that would rival full-size headphones I strongly suggest taking a look at the Yuin PK1. It's an "earbud", non-IEM, and sounds unbelievably good (actually the whole PK line is outstanding).
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steaxauce
post Oct 15 2009, 23:18
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odigg, which one are you ordering?
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Soap
post Oct 16 2009, 01:15
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QUOTE (Notat @ Oct 15 2009, 15:43) *
Yes, bone conduction. Is this possibly a fundamental limitation with IEMs or is there a way to design around it? Good design can minimize acoustic transmission through the cable but how do you address transmission through your bones. You don't hear so much of this with conventional headphones or speakers. Perhaps sealed ears trap and magnify internal sounds.

The brain is an amazing thing. I can no longer hear myself walk when wearing IEMs. Bothered the piss out of me the first few days, and then slowly it disappeared.
Rough back of the envelope calc says I've worn IEMs for around 5000 hours, but my brain learned to filter it out way before then.
I even jog with them in.


This post has been edited by Soap: Oct 16 2009, 01:16


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odigg
post Oct 16 2009, 03:41
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QUOTE (Goratrix @ Oct 15 2009, 18:12) *
Btw, if you are looking for a small earphone that would rival full-size headphones I strongly suggest taking a look at the Yuin PK1. It's an "earbud", non-IEM, and sounds unbelievably good (actually the whole PK line is outstanding).


I've heard either the PK or the OK series. I was completely astonished by the sound as I imagine most people are when they hear them. However, I've never found earbud style earphones comfortable as my ears always starting hurting after a while. They also fall out quite easily and offer little isolation which completely defeats the purpose of a portable headphone.

QUOTE
odigg, which one are you ordering?


At this point I've settled on the Audeo PFE. The price is quite sensible (in the land of "audiophile" headphones at least), they are supposed to be fairly neutral sonically, and apparently compete quite well against more expensive models. If nothing else, I'll get a taste for IEMs compared to full sized headphones.

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udauda
post Oct 16 2009, 05:14
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QUOTE
Bone conduction is the phenomenon where the IEM user can hear noise (caused by body motion such as eating and walking) transmitted with in the body.

I believe the proper term of this phenomenon is called: microphonics.

http://www.macworld.com/article/55152/2007...analphones.html
QUOTE
most in-ear-canal headphones suffer—to varying degrees—from microphonics , a phenomenon where, because the headphones seal so tightly against your ear canals, bumps and scrapes to the headphone cables are transferred up the cables directly to your ears...Related to microphonics, some people also experience what is known as the occlusion effect, where your voice and other bodily noises—breathing, coughing, eating, etc.—seem louder or unnatural while wearing canalphones.
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steaxauce
post Oct 16 2009, 08:07
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Well, I happened to come across the statement Jerry Harvey made about the advantage to using two drivers per frequency band in his JH-13 Pro. Here it is:

"The balanced armatures when coupled lower distortion. They also are working much more efficiently because of 2 drivers doing the work. Each driver does half the work which increases headroom. A concert PA system like a L Acoustics line array will have roughly 64 15" speakers,128 8" speakers and 32 2" high drivers hanging in the air. Also 64 18" sub bass speakers. In order to create headroom which is gain before distortion you need the work load distributed across multiple components. Yes you can distort all of the components but the sheer gain to do so would be at the threshold of pain. Headroom equals clean audio when operated at a normal spl. Jerry"

Also, you may be interested in checking out this list of head-fier impressions. It seems unanimous that the JH-13 is at least in the league of the top ($1000+) full-sized headphones.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/5911775-post3001.html

This seems beyond FOTM. Several long-time head-fiers have sold off their huge collections of gear because the 13 has made everything else moot. Even if you think everyone on head-fi is crazy, it's tough to deny that there's got to be something to all this. Also, check out the review on touchmyapps.com, below.

http://www.touchmyapps.com/2009/09/30/jerr...-for-your-ears/
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