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Interesting Papers re temporal resolution
ncdrawl
post Jul 25 2009, 07:27
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http://www.physics.sc.edu/kunchur/Acoustics-papers.htm

http://www.physics.sc.edu/kunchur/papers/FAQs.pdf
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John_Siau
post Jul 31 2009, 19:37
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From the summary paragraph in "Audibility of temporal smearing and time misalignment of acoustic signals" by Dr. Kunchur
QUOTE
These qualitative and anecdotal observations point to the possibility that human hearing may be sensitive to temporal errors, τ , that are shorter than the reciprocal of the limiting angular frequency [2πfmax]^−1 ≈ 9 μs, thus necessitating bandwidths in audio equipment that are much higher than fmax in order to preserve fidelity.


Again, the same glaring error:

The Nyquist frequency does NOT determine the temporal resolution of a PCM system. The entire premise of the paper is fundamentally flawed. The experiment proves the need for moderately controlled jitter but does not establish the need for higher sample rates.


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Axon
post Jul 31 2009, 21:28
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QUOTE (John_Siau @ Jul 31 2009, 13:37) *
From the summary paragraph in "Audibility of temporal smearing and time misalignment of acoustic signals" by Dr. Kunchur
QUOTE
These qualitative and anecdotal observations point to the possibility that human hearing may be sensitive to temporal errors, τ , that are shorter than the reciprocal of the limiting angular frequency [2πfmax]^−1 ≈ 9 μs, thus necessitating bandwidths in audio equipment that are much higher than fmax in order to preserve fidelity.


Again, the same glaring error:

The Nyquist frequency does NOT determine the temporal resolution of a PCM system. The entire premise of the paper is fundamentally flawed. The experiment proves the need for moderately controlled jitter but does not establish the need for higher sample rates.


That seems too harsh to me - I agree that Dr. Kunchur is making huge conceptual mistakes with his treatment of digital audio, and in a lot of other things for that matter, but the experiment itself can't be dismissed so easily. Despite all the issues I have with the paper that I mentioned earlier, isn't it at least plausible on some sort of a priori level that, if one can guarantee a distortion of fairly reasonable consistency (internal to the ear), that testing of ultrasonics on that basis may be reasonable?
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John_Siau
post Jul 31 2009, 22:15
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QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 31 2009, 16:28) *
That seems too harsh to me - I agree that Dr. Kunchur is making huge conceptual mistakes with his treatment of digital audio, and in a lot of other things for that matter, but the experiment itself can't be dismissed so easily. Despite all the issues I have with the paper that I mentioned earlier, isn't it at least plausible on some sort of a priori level that, if one can guarantee a distortion of fairly reasonable consistency (internal to the ear), that testing of ultrasonics on that basis may be reasonable?


I do not dismiss the test results that attempt to quantify our ability to hear abrupt temporal shifts. This is useful information. However, the paper assumes that these 5 usec temporal shifts cannot be represented in a 44.1 kHz PCM system. This assumption is simply false.


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Posts in this topic
- ncdrawl   Interesting Papers re temporal resolution   Jul 25 2009, 07:27
- - rpp3po   I'm not sure wether they have actually tested ...   Jul 25 2009, 13:17
- - Ethan Winer   Nice to see this topic here where it can be discus...   Jul 25 2009, 18:26
- - hellokeith   from the link: QUOTE Our recent behavioral studies...   Jul 25 2009, 20:39
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (hellokeith @ Jul 25 2009, 21:39) D...   Jul 25 2009, 22:09
||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Jul 25 2009, 23:09)...   Jul 25 2009, 22:28
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Jul 25 2009, 14:28) Well,...   Jul 28 2009, 09:27
|- - John_Siau   From the first paragraph at: www.physics.sc.edu/ku...   Jul 31 2009, 19:16
|- - andy_c   QUOTE (John_Siau @ Jul 31 2009, 12:16) Th...   Jul 31 2009, 21:30
- - hellokeith   Well after reading through the first 3 PDF's a...   Jul 26 2009, 01:24
- - Axon   Don't even bother using a square wave generato...   Jul 28 2009, 02:55
|- - rpp3po   Yes, I asked myself why Adobe would even include s...   Jul 28 2009, 03:06
- - Mike Giacomelli   I only skimmed the paper, but IIRC tried a digital...   Jul 28 2009, 03:31
- - Canar   Now the WAV files won't load in foobar2000... ...   Jul 28 2009, 03:51
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (Canar @ Jul 28 2009, 04:51) These ...   Jul 28 2009, 11:37
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Jul 28 2009, 14:37) Could...   Jul 28 2009, 12:52
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Jul 28 2009, 06:37) Could...   Jul 28 2009, 15:58
- - Nick.C   Why not just just create a 7.35kHz square wave ...   Jul 28 2009, 13:13
|- - benski   QUOTE (Nick.C @ Jul 28 2009, 08:13) Why n...   Jul 31 2009, 15:39
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (benski @ Jul 31 2009, 15:39) QUOTE...   Jul 31 2009, 16:33
|- - benski   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 31 2009, 11:33) QU...   Jul 31 2009, 16:39
- - Axon   Because that places unacceptable restrictions on t...   Jul 28 2009, 16:12
- - Canar   If I may grossly oversimplify your argument Axon, ...   Jul 28 2009, 19:46
|- - Axon   QUOTE (Canar @ Jul 28 2009, 13:46) If I m...   Jul 28 2009, 20:14
||- - andy_c   I'd like to add a few comments regarding the ...   Jul 29 2009, 16:52
||- - Axon   QUOTE (andy_c @ Jul 29 2009, 10:52) I...   Jul 29 2009, 17:11
||- - andy_c   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 29 2009, 10:11) Well, g...   Jul 29 2009, 17:27
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (Canar @ Jul 28 2009, 14:46) As an ...   Jul 28 2009, 21:08
|- - NullC   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Jul 28 2009, 12...   Jul 29 2009, 05:48
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (NullC @ Jul 29 2009, 00:48) QUOTE ...   Jul 29 2009, 16:19
- - Axon   So, on that note.... an off topic comment. I just ...   Jul 29 2009, 17:01
|- - Canar   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 29 2009, 09:01) So, on ...   Jul 29 2009, 18:18
- - krabapple   It may well be that Dr. Kunchur's audio work i...   Jul 29 2009, 17:04
- - kode54   Where did you come up with that 1.45GHz figure? Th...   Jul 29 2009, 20:22
- - Axon   Well, I'm thinking more specifically of the th...   Jul 29 2009, 20:41
- - Audible!   QUOTE (ncdrawl @ Jul 30 2009, 23:07) QUOT...   Jul 31 2009, 08:36
- - 2Bdecided   Yes, I see it now (having tried it!), it's...   Jul 31 2009, 17:13
- - John_Siau   From the summary paragraph in "Audibility of ...   Jul 31 2009, 19:37
|- - Axon   QUOTE (John_Siau @ Jul 31 2009, 13:37) Fr...   Jul 31 2009, 21:28
|- - John_Siau   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 31 2009, 16:28) That se...   Jul 31 2009, 22:15
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 31 2009, 21:28) Dr. Kun...   Aug 1 2009, 06:46
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 31 2009, 21:28) That se...   Aug 1 2009, 08:24
|- - rpp3po   I'm just coming back from vacation. Thanks for...   Aug 2 2009, 17:42
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Aug 2 2009, 12:42) But un...   Aug 3 2009, 01:24
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 3 2009, 02...   Aug 3 2009, 01:42
|- - ncdrawl   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Aug 2 2009, 20:42) QUOTE ...   Aug 3 2009, 04:59
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (ncdrawl @ Aug 2 2009, 23:59) QUOTE...   Aug 3 2009, 07:57
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (ncdrawl @ Aug 3 2009, 04:59) Dr. K...   Aug 3 2009, 08:52
||- - Axon   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 02:52) QUOTE...   Aug 3 2009, 19:02
|||- - honestguv   QUOTE (Axon @ Aug 3 2009, 20:02) BTW, I f...   Aug 3 2009, 19:35
||- - ncdrawl   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 03:52) we do...   Aug 8 2009, 00:03
|- - honestguv   > Dr. Kunchur will be posting confutations in f...   Aug 3 2009, 08:54
|- - andy_c   Regarding my earlier post about the lack of second...   Aug 3 2009, 17:34
- - benski   I need to do further reading to do a full refutati...   Aug 3 2009, 20:10
|- - benski   Also, for his FAQ example of two peaks separated b...   Aug 3 2009, 20:24
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 3 2009, 21:24) two pe...   Aug 3 2009, 20:56
||- - Axon   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 14:56) QUOTE...   Aug 3 2009, 21:04
||- - benski   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 15:56) QUOTE...   Aug 3 2009, 21:22
|||- - WernerO   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 3 2009, 22:22) Please...   Aug 4 2009, 08:11
|||- - benski   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 4 2009, 03:11) QUOTE...   Aug 4 2009, 14:34
||- - honestguv   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 21:56) But t...   Aug 3 2009, 21:47
||- - benski   QUOTE (honestguv @ Aug 3 2009, 16:47) QUO...   Aug 3 2009, 22:04
||- - honestguv   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 3 2009, 23:04) They a...   Aug 3 2009, 22:49
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 3 2009, 20:24) Also, ...   Aug 3 2009, 22:05
- - Canar   I just had a random thought about this and I wante...   Aug 4 2009, 02:41
|- - andy_c   Well, the 4.7us time constant does decrease the le...   Aug 4 2009, 02:57
|- - andy_c   Here's another thing I noticed in his test app...   Aug 4 2009, 14:23
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (andy_c @ Aug 4 2009, 09:23) Here...   Aug 13 2009, 12:56
|- - Pio2001   Hello, I've just read the first and third arti...   Apr 18 2010, 23:07
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Apr 19 2010, 00:07) Ther...   Apr 18 2010, 23:56
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Apr 18 2010, 18:07) QUOT...   Apr 19 2010, 14:49
- - ultrasonic   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Aug 3 2009, 02:42) QUOTE ...   Jan 2 2010, 05:09
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 1 2010, 20:09) QU...   Jan 2 2010, 05:28
||- - ultrasonic   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 2 2010, 06:28) Q...   Jan 2 2010, 05:41
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 1 2010, 23:41) QU...   Jan 2 2010, 06:15
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 1 2010, 23:09) QU...   Jan 2 2010, 06:01
|- - ultrasonic   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 2 2010, 07...   Jan 2 2010, 06:37
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 2 2010, 00:37) QU...   Jan 2 2010, 06:52
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 1 2010, 21:37) Op...   Jan 2 2010, 10:29
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 2 2010, 04:29) B...   Jan 2 2010, 13:24
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 2 2010, 00:37) Op...   Jan 3 2010, 06:43
- - Woodinville   It is interesting to note that now the same people...   Jun 15 2010, 19:31
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 15 2010, 14:31) ...   Jun 16 2010, 11:09
- - Paulhoff   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 15 2010, 14:31) ...   Jun 16 2010, 12:33
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