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Interesting Papers re temporal resolution
ncdrawl
post Jul 25 2009, 07:27
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http://www.physics.sc.edu/kunchur/Acoustics-papers.htm

http://www.physics.sc.edu/kunchur/papers/FAQs.pdf
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hellokeith
post Jul 25 2009, 20:39
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from the link:
QUOTE
Our recent behavioral studies on human subjects proved that humans can discern timing alterations on a 5 microsecond time scale, indicating that that digital sampling rates used in common consumer audio (such as CD) are insufficient for fully preserving transparency.


Exactly how does some air vibration < 18kHz only last 5 microseconds?

Also,

.000005 = 200 KiloHertz

Does this mean we need > 400kHz sampling rates?
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C.R.Helmrich
post Jul 25 2009, 22:09
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QUOTE (hellokeith @ Jul 25 2009, 21:39) *
Does this mean we need > 400kHz sampling rates?

Well, I guess what we can conclude from Prof. Kunchur's research is that indeed, you might need 400 kHz to digitally represent a 7-kHz square wave transparently. I'm not listening to such square waves in my free time very often, though.

Would be curious to see what vinyl makes out of a "perfect" 7-kHz square wave.

Chris


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rpp3po
post Jul 25 2009, 22:28
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QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Jul 25 2009, 23:09) *
Well, I guess what we can conclude from Prof. Kunchur's research is that indeed, you might need 400 kHz to digitally represent a 7-kHz square wave transparently. I'm not listening to such square waves in my free time very often, though.


Well, 400kHz aside, if he was anywhere vicinity of being right - what I'm not willing to swallow, yet - the long time objectivist argument would be broken:

  • Humans can't hear anything above 20kHz.
  • 44.1kHz sample rate is enough to cover all that completely according to Nyquist.
  • -> The Redbook storage format is completely sufficient for transparency.


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Woodinville
post Jul 28 2009, 09:27
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Jul 25 2009, 14:28) *
Well, 400kHz aside, if he was anywhere vicinity of being right - what I'm not willing to swallow, yet - the long time objectivist argument would be broken:

  • Humans can't hear anything above 20kHz.
  • 44.1kHz sample rate is enough to cover all that completely according to Nyquist.
  • -> The Redbook storage format is completely sufficient for transparency.


Just as an aside, no, that's not the case.

In order to contain the bandwidth of a signal, you have to filter it. It is possible (i.e. it is done with ridiculous filters which I cheerfully stipulate are not useful in any real sense) that filters might have a slight, tiny effect, maybe, kinda sorta, PERHAPS, at 44.1. Even less likely at 48, and not at all at 64. Nobody has shown this with sensible filters, by which I mean filters that have decent transition bandwidth (i.e. not as tight as humanly possible), ripple, and stopband rejection.

And, of course, if Dr. K's argument is mistaken, that shows nothing, for or against.


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Posts in this topic
- ncdrawl   Interesting Papers re temporal resolution   Jul 25 2009, 07:27
- - rpp3po   I'm not sure wether they have actually tested ...   Jul 25 2009, 13:17
- - Ethan Winer   Nice to see this topic here where it can be discus...   Jul 25 2009, 18:26
- - hellokeith   from the link: QUOTE Our recent behavioral studies...   Jul 25 2009, 20:39
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (hellokeith @ Jul 25 2009, 21:39) D...   Jul 25 2009, 22:09
||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Jul 25 2009, 23:09)...   Jul 25 2009, 22:28
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Jul 25 2009, 14:28) Well,...   Jul 28 2009, 09:27
|- - John_Siau   From the first paragraph at: www.physics.sc.edu/ku...   Jul 31 2009, 19:16
|- - andy_c   QUOTE (John_Siau @ Jul 31 2009, 12:16) Th...   Jul 31 2009, 21:30
- - hellokeith   Well after reading through the first 3 PDF's a...   Jul 26 2009, 01:24
- - Axon   Don't even bother using a square wave generato...   Jul 28 2009, 02:55
|- - rpp3po   Yes, I asked myself why Adobe would even include s...   Jul 28 2009, 03:06
- - Mike Giacomelli   I only skimmed the paper, but IIRC tried a digital...   Jul 28 2009, 03:31
- - Canar   Now the WAV files won't load in foobar2000... ...   Jul 28 2009, 03:51
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (Canar @ Jul 28 2009, 04:51) These ...   Jul 28 2009, 11:37
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Jul 28 2009, 14:37) Could...   Jul 28 2009, 12:52
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Jul 28 2009, 06:37) Could...   Jul 28 2009, 15:58
- - Nick.C   Why not just just create a 7.35kHz square wave ...   Jul 28 2009, 13:13
|- - benski   QUOTE (Nick.C @ Jul 28 2009, 08:13) Why n...   Jul 31 2009, 15:39
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (benski @ Jul 31 2009, 15:39) QUOTE...   Jul 31 2009, 16:33
|- - benski   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 31 2009, 11:33) QU...   Jul 31 2009, 16:39
- - Axon   Because that places unacceptable restrictions on t...   Jul 28 2009, 16:12
- - Canar   If I may grossly oversimplify your argument Axon, ...   Jul 28 2009, 19:46
|- - Axon   QUOTE (Canar @ Jul 28 2009, 13:46) If I m...   Jul 28 2009, 20:14
||- - andy_c   I'd like to add a few comments regarding the ...   Jul 29 2009, 16:52
||- - Axon   QUOTE (andy_c @ Jul 29 2009, 10:52) I...   Jul 29 2009, 17:11
||- - andy_c   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 29 2009, 10:11) Well, g...   Jul 29 2009, 17:27
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (Canar @ Jul 28 2009, 14:46) As an ...   Jul 28 2009, 21:08
|- - NullC   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Jul 28 2009, 12...   Jul 29 2009, 05:48
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (NullC @ Jul 29 2009, 00:48) QUOTE ...   Jul 29 2009, 16:19
- - Axon   So, on that note.... an off topic comment. I just ...   Jul 29 2009, 17:01
|- - Canar   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 29 2009, 09:01) So, on ...   Jul 29 2009, 18:18
- - krabapple   It may well be that Dr. Kunchur's audio work i...   Jul 29 2009, 17:04
- - kode54   Where did you come up with that 1.45GHz figure? Th...   Jul 29 2009, 20:22
- - Axon   Well, I'm thinking more specifically of the th...   Jul 29 2009, 20:41
- - Audible!   QUOTE (ncdrawl @ Jul 30 2009, 23:07) QUOT...   Jul 31 2009, 08:36
- - 2Bdecided   Yes, I see it now (having tried it!), it's...   Jul 31 2009, 17:13
- - John_Siau   From the summary paragraph in "Audibility of ...   Jul 31 2009, 19:37
|- - Axon   QUOTE (John_Siau @ Jul 31 2009, 13:37) Fr...   Jul 31 2009, 21:28
|- - John_Siau   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 31 2009, 16:28) That se...   Jul 31 2009, 22:15
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 31 2009, 21:28) Dr. Kun...   Aug 1 2009, 06:46
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 31 2009, 21:28) That se...   Aug 1 2009, 08:24
|- - rpp3po   I'm just coming back from vacation. Thanks for...   Aug 2 2009, 17:42
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Aug 2 2009, 12:42) But un...   Aug 3 2009, 01:24
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Aug 3 2009, 02...   Aug 3 2009, 01:42
|- - ncdrawl   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Aug 2 2009, 20:42) QUOTE ...   Aug 3 2009, 04:59
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (ncdrawl @ Aug 2 2009, 23:59) QUOTE...   Aug 3 2009, 07:57
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (ncdrawl @ Aug 3 2009, 04:59) Dr. K...   Aug 3 2009, 08:52
||- - Axon   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 02:52) QUOTE...   Aug 3 2009, 19:02
|||- - honestguv   QUOTE (Axon @ Aug 3 2009, 20:02) BTW, I f...   Aug 3 2009, 19:35
||- - ncdrawl   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 03:52) we do...   Aug 8 2009, 00:03
|- - honestguv   > Dr. Kunchur will be posting confutations in f...   Aug 3 2009, 08:54
|- - andy_c   Regarding my earlier post about the lack of second...   Aug 3 2009, 17:34
- - benski   I need to do further reading to do a full refutati...   Aug 3 2009, 20:10
|- - benski   Also, for his FAQ example of two peaks separated b...   Aug 3 2009, 20:24
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 3 2009, 21:24) two pe...   Aug 3 2009, 20:56
||- - Axon   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 14:56) QUOTE...   Aug 3 2009, 21:04
||- - benski   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 15:56) QUOTE...   Aug 3 2009, 21:22
|||- - WernerO   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 3 2009, 22:22) Please...   Aug 4 2009, 08:11
|||- - benski   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 4 2009, 03:11) QUOTE...   Aug 4 2009, 14:34
||- - honestguv   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 3 2009, 21:56) But t...   Aug 3 2009, 21:47
||- - benski   QUOTE (honestguv @ Aug 3 2009, 16:47) QUO...   Aug 3 2009, 22:04
||- - honestguv   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 3 2009, 23:04) They a...   Aug 3 2009, 22:49
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 3 2009, 20:24) Also, ...   Aug 3 2009, 22:05
- - Canar   I just had a random thought about this and I wante...   Aug 4 2009, 02:41
|- - andy_c   Well, the 4.7us time constant does decrease the le...   Aug 4 2009, 02:57
|- - andy_c   Here's another thing I noticed in his test app...   Aug 4 2009, 14:23
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (andy_c @ Aug 4 2009, 09:23) Here...   Aug 13 2009, 12:56
|- - Pio2001   Hello, I've just read the first and third arti...   Apr 18 2010, 23:07
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Apr 19 2010, 00:07) Ther...   Apr 18 2010, 23:56
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Apr 18 2010, 18:07) QUOT...   Apr 19 2010, 14:49
- - ultrasonic   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Aug 3 2009, 02:42) QUOTE ...   Jan 2 2010, 05:09
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 1 2010, 20:09) QU...   Jan 2 2010, 05:28
||- - ultrasonic   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 2 2010, 06:28) Q...   Jan 2 2010, 05:41
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 1 2010, 23:41) QU...   Jan 2 2010, 06:15
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 1 2010, 23:09) QU...   Jan 2 2010, 06:01
|- - ultrasonic   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 2 2010, 07...   Jan 2 2010, 06:37
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 2 2010, 00:37) QU...   Jan 2 2010, 06:52
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 1 2010, 21:37) Op...   Jan 2 2010, 10:29
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 2 2010, 04:29) B...   Jan 2 2010, 13:24
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (ultrasonic @ Jan 2 2010, 00:37) Op...   Jan 3 2010, 06:43
- - Woodinville   It is interesting to note that now the same people...   Jun 15 2010, 19:31
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 15 2010, 14:31) ...   Jun 16 2010, 11:09
- - Paulhoff   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 15 2010, 14:31) ...   Jun 16 2010, 12:33
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