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Getting into Records, Newbie buying a turntable
TheSneakerDude
post May 11 2009, 15:32
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Hello, I'm new to turntables and vinyl since they're before my time. (I'm 19) My father is an avid collector and he has quite a collection but his turntable is in need of a new cartidge. He has an old Technics 1200 MK2. I already own about 10 records, mostly modern rock and some european dance. However, I want to buy a solid turntable that will let me import the records onto my comuter and keep the sound pure and better than cd. I already own the records I have on cd. I want to import the LP's in a way that will let me hear the difference clearly. I mainly listen to my music on my ipod or my computer. I am considering buying a Technics 1200 MK5 and attaching an Audio Technica Turntable Cartridge AT150MLX to it and using a Rolls/Bellari VP530 to import onto my computer. The total cost for this investment will come around 1k. Now what I want to know is, will this be a good enough investment for me to imporve on the sound of my cd's? I don't want to invest a grand in equipment and the records will sound identical to the cds on my ipod. I understand that headphones are part of the equation so I already own Bose Quiet Comfort 3 to be able hear a better range of frequencies. Am I wasting my money investing in all these parts? Instead of investing in all these parts, should I just stick to the turntable and the Rolls/Bellari VP530? Any help is greatly apreciated. Thank you!

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This post has been edited by greynol: May 11 2009, 17:55
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Tahnru
post May 11 2009, 15:34
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QUOTE (TheSneakerDude @ May 11 2009, 09:32) *
Now what I want to know is, will this be a good enough investment for me to imporve on the sound of my cd's? I don't want to invest a grand in equipment and the records will sound identical to the cds on my ipod.


I foresee this being a contentious statement. Would you mind clarifying it, so we can focus the incoming discussion?
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TheSneakerDude
post May 11 2009, 15:39
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I want to be able to hear a difference between my records and my cd's. Any difference is good enough. haha. It'll justify my madness.
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rpp3po
post May 11 2009, 15:39
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The CD format's technical limitations are much wider than vinyl's. So if you have bad sounding CDs it's not the format's fault, but very probably a form of mastering that you don't like.

If you like the degraded sound of vinyl use a dynamic compressor and lowpass and add some sizzling noise to your CDs and you will get the same.

This post has been edited by rpp3po: May 11 2009, 15:40
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TheSneakerDude
post May 11 2009, 15:46
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I know that vinyl sounds good when you're listening to it. However, it loses sound when it's converted into a digital format right? I've listened to vinyl before, and I love how smooth the transitions sound and there's a noticeable difference in the high's and low's.
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rpp3po
post May 11 2009, 15:48
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QUOTE (TheSneakerDude @ May 11 2009, 16:46) *
However, it loses sound when it's converted into a digital format right?


No, with a halfway decent recording and playback system (PC + < $300 soundcard) and properly dithered, it will be exactly the same as direct playback from your deck.

This post has been edited by rpp3po: May 11 2009, 15:54
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TheSneakerDude
post May 11 2009, 15:53
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All of my records are brand new, and I haven't taken any out of their cartons. I don't think any have any dust or scratches. They're all sealed. Which file format keeps the most information about the vinyl when you digitize it? Is it 24/96 Wave? Is it possible for you to send me a sample song?
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Tahnru
post May 11 2009, 16:27
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QUOTE (TheSneakerDude @ May 11 2009, 09:53) *
Which file format keeps the most information about the vinyl when you digitize it? Is it 24/96 Wave?


Bit-depth and sampling rate depend on what you're going to do with the files once transferred. If you're going to do any processing on the files, such as applying the equalization curve in software, it's probably a good idea to record at 24 bits / 96khz sample rate.

[edit] So I took a look at the VP 530 - the ADC in this device supports a max of 16-bit/44.1khz sample rate. [/edit]


As far as file formats go, you'll want to pick a lossless format for long-term storage of your LP transfers. Some of the benefits of these include space savings, the ability to save album artwork, greatly enhanced tagging ability.
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...less_comparison

This post has been edited by Tahnru: May 11 2009, 16:30
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TheSneakerDude
post May 12 2009, 17:10
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so the VP530 would not be adequate enough? right? I would apply the equalization curve in the software.
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TheSneakerDude
post May 12 2009, 17:19
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I recently read about sampling Records at 24Bit/192Hz, is this a meaningful sample rate for listening to records on my computer? Will this be arduous to achieve and/or pointless?
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rpp3po
post May 12 2009, 17:20
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QUOTE (TheSneakerDude @ May 12 2009, 18:10) *
so the VP530 would not be adequate enough? right? I would apply the equalization curve in the software.


As LPs are neither able to reproduce frequencies > 22kHz nor able to reproduce dynamics > 96 db, why would 44.1/16 not be sufficient, again?
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2Bdecided
post May 12 2009, 18:06
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TheSneakerDude,

You're going to be told the truth on this site.

And judging by your pre-conceptions, you're not going to like it.


Take an LP, record it properly at 44.1kHz 16-bits, and the only change to the sound is in some listener's imagination.


People who trust their imagination will try to tell you that vinyl sounds better than CD, CD isn't good enough to capture the information on vinyl etc, and most importantly that everyone here is deaf.

Yet there are people here with a few more records than you (I have over 10,000), better systems, and long experience of copying LPs onto CDs / digital. And not one of them can hear anything wrong with the result (or at least, any faults that weren't already present on the LP itself!).


Now, the question is, can these people who claim vinyl sounds better and CD sounds worse really hear the difference, when they don't know which one is being played to them?

Every test carried out so far suggests they only think vinyl sounds better when they know they're listening to vinyl. When know-one tells them whether they're listening ot vinyl direct, or vinyl copied onto CD, they can't tell the difference.

Draw your own conclusions.


Some recordings are far far better mastered on vinyl than on CD. Copying these onto CD can give you something far more enjoyable than the commercial CD release. Using "better than CD" digital parameters will make no difference on decent equipment, and little difference on inferior equipment.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David.
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TheSneakerDude
post May 12 2009, 18:16
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 12 2009, 12:06) *
TheSneakerDude,

You're going to be told the truth on this site.


Thank you very much by your honesty it has helped me in my dilemma. I am a little disappointed by this however, it has made me more humble towards my cd collection. I already own about 2K. Sometimes it is better to find happiness and value in what you already have. Thank You.
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PaJaRo
post May 12 2009, 18:43
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QUOTE (TheSneakerDude @ May 12 2009, 19:16) *
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 12 2009, 12:06) *
TheSneakerDude,

You're going to be told the truth on this site.


Thank you very much by your honesty it has helped me in my dilemma. I am a little disappointed by this however, it has made me more humble towards my cd collection. I already own about 2K. Sometimes it is better to find happiness and value in what you already have. Thank You.

huh.gif Why is it posted under flac? No one spoke about flac
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krabapple
post May 12 2009, 19:06
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QUOTE (Tahnru @ May 11 2009, 11:27) *
QUOTE (TheSneakerDude @ May 11 2009, 09:53) *
Which file format keeps the most information about the vinyl when you digitize it? Is it 24/96 Wave?


Bit-depth and sampling rate depend on what you're going to do with the files once transferred. If you're going to do any processing on the files, such as applying the equalization curve in software, it's probably a good idea to record at 24 bits / 96khz sample rate.



A 96khz sample rate is unnecessary. 44.1kHz/24bit is quite adequate for an LP transfer that is to be processed further (e.g. declicking). If I were the OP, after a new cart I'd invest in a good LP vaccum cleaning device..even new records can benefit from good cleaning.

Overall, see Clive Backham's page for a good guide to LP transfer.

http://www.delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm

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Tahnru
post May 12 2009, 19:26
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@ Krabapple:

Thank you for pointing that out. It didn't even occur to me - this type of project is something I've dabbled in myself, but never sat down and really thought through. The natural pairings of recording settings (in my head) were 16/44.1k, 24/96k ... didn't even think about it.

-Rob
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TheSneakerDude
post May 13 2009, 01:13
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Does anyone from New York know a store where one can bring Vinyl records to be digitized?
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Overpaid1963
post May 24 2009, 15:50
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QUOTE (Agent69 @ May 13 2009, 01:25) *
This thread needs to be moved.
Interesting that someone said 'you'll get the truth here' then goes into a hundred and one biased misconceptions........ wink.gif

A someone who worked in hi-fi for years, owns a high end TT, CD player and multi format player, and has top quality PC gear for ripping to digital I was just breathaken at some of the comments on here about conversion and the relative quality for formats.

Let's ignore for a minute both the reviewers comments, some of whom have worked in hif-fi for decades, and who have a vested interest (believe me, they do) in promoting Digital over Analogue yet still praise Vinyl reproduction over Digital, and more importantly the increasing level of criticism of Digital reproduction (mastering etc) by sound engineers, and concentrate on the basics.

Yes, it's fair to say that plenty of people have misconceptions about what 'Vinyl sound' is and should be. Yes, much of what is said IS crap ('warm' sound, etc) but that still leaves it open to question as to whether Digital is better, because sadly I've heard too much rubbish come from that camp as well. Not withstanding the lies about CD's reproduction capability from day one, the lack of quality in Hi-Res, and the lies told about it's capability (now being addressed I'm pleased to say), again issues not raised by 'vinyl addicts' but by Sound Engineers. On that note, there are some brilliant, if rather scathing articles out there on both of the latter topics.

That is not to say that 'Vinyl good', 'CD bad', or Hi-Res all bad for that matter. In recent years vinyl reproduction has resurged (in the UK it was the only growth sector in software sales in the last two years 2007 -2008) due in no small part due to the almost uiversally awful mastering of modern mainstream CD. A fact that can be applied to Hi-Res as well. Vinyl replay, unlike Digital, is also infintely upgradeable, and there is no 'diminishing return threshold'. Again unlike Digital. I have heard (and demonstrated myself) some very expernsive indeed High end CD and wondered why on Earth people pay that sort of money when players half the price gave equally good, and slightly less artificial sound!

On the flipside, A high end TT will trounce it's cheaper counterparts in every region, and many that Digital players cannot go, and never have. Timing, stereo image, superior soundstage, greater 'reality' in the reproduction of high fequency and low bass are what I want, not 'warmth'. I have yet to find (at any price) Digital players that do that for me. That is not to say , again, that Vinyl is 'universally better'. It's just that I, after years in the biz, and based on what I have heard, have yet to find, in any area, that digital is equal to Vinyl

On the recording side, I have copied many LP's to Hi-res and CD. On the advise, not of 'some guy on a forum' but on that of a sound engineer, I use Hi-Res 24 -96 the vast majority of the time. Why? Because as he put it, it will best capture the wave form. There is no difference I hear you say. Well, I have blind tested several people and recordings made with both, 16-44 and 24-96, using the same player (a top flight Multi Format player noted for it's excellent CD performance), have produced almost universal results - people could hear the difference.

It was interesting to note that those who couldn't were those known to be 'Digital nut's. One asks therefore, is it only 'Vinyl addicts' who judge not with their ears, but on suppositions.......

Sorry to barge in, but after seeing so many 'people who prefer Vinyl are talking rubbish' posts I had to attempt some balance.

In particular as it may well not be true.

The best advice would be 'suck it and see' rather than 'they' are all talking drivel.

On either side.

This post has been edited by Overpaid1963: May 24 2009, 15:51
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Audible!
post May 24 2009, 19:25
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Overpaid - you seem to be under the impression that you are posting somewhere that tolerates anecdotal claims about audibility. Testing is king here; single blind anecdotes from hi-fi store clerks are unlikely to hold any water unless they are rigorously documented. Reality can be readily tested in a reproducible, double blind fashion such that human bias is removed.

That has been done already WRT vinyl (as mentioned) by technically adept personnel, and the results tend to be the opposite of your "blind testing" anecdote.

Recall that pharmaceuticals must exceed the efficacy of placebo for a very good reason - individuals taking a placebo very often believe the placebo is ameliorating their symptoms.

You seem to believe that the individuals you are responding to do not have a level of technical knowledge on the subject that would justify their statements. You are incorrect in that assumption, as you would discover very rapidly if you bother to examine their posting history. Likewise, suggesting that vinyl cannot be captured then mastered to 16/44.1 and played back in such a way that it is totally transparent and indiscernible from the same at 24/96 is a bit humorous in the context of a post attempting to 'clear the air' on such issues.

Please review the terms of service, particularly TOS #8.

Couching audibility in the context of "two sides" is absurd in the extreme.
edit: disambiguation

This post has been edited by Audible!: May 24 2009, 19:33
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2Bdecided
post May 24 2009, 21:47
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QUOTE (Overpaid1963 @ May 24 2009, 15:50) *
Well, I have blind tested several people and recordings made with both, 16-44 and 24-96, using the same player (a top flight Multi Format player noted for it's excellent CD performance), have produced almost universal results - people could hear the difference.

I look forward to seeing your statistically significant double-blind test results.

And/or, if you want other people to try the test (always a good thing), some samples would be nice - identical recordings, but one 44.1/16, and one 96/24. 30 seconds maximum. There's an uploads forum here on HA, or use mediafire to share them.

Cheers,
David.
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post May 31 2009, 12:35
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QUOTE (Overpaid1963 @ May 24 2009, 10:50) *
On the flipside, A high end TT will trounce it's cheaper counterparts in every region, and many that Digital players cannot go, and never have. Timing, stereo image, superior soundstage, greater 'reality' in the reproduction of high fequency and low bass are what I want, not 'warmth'. I have yet to find (at any price) Digital players that do that for me. That is not to say , again, that Vinyl is 'universally better'. It's just that I, after years in the biz, and based on what I have heard, have yet to find, in any area, that digital is equal to Vinyl


The above are simply unsupported repetitions of the usual false claims that we hear from people who prize vinyl above all reason and reliable facts.


Here's an evaluation of vinyl from another forum, by someone who seems to be agnostic about digital versus analog, and is trying to decide for themselves based on listening:

QUOTE
"To begin with, I noticed that the turntable have a more "warm" sound, which is ok for certain type of music, but also the turntable add a noise, statics, pops, hisses and friction noise and most (if not all) of this noises can be heard fairly easily, so how come the vendor can clain that the sound is purer?

"Addionally, while I was hearing to the turntable, I could not avoid to think about the CD "brightness", the way I see the frequency extention of the CD seems to be wider, actually much wider than the LP/Vynil.

"It is impossible not to compare all the formats, and for my ears the CD sound, not only is better, but it is a lot cleaner.


This post has been edited by Arnold B. Krueger: May 31 2009, 12:36
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Tuberocity
post May 31 2009, 18:59
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For the layman out there ( I don't have the technical ability to explain otherwise lol ) Having been into vinyl for many years, and amassing over 1000 albums in my 48 years, I have to say stick with cd's/digital. To even come close to the quality of a cd you must have equipment up to the task. The recording will be only as good as the signal you record. My Planar 9 $2800, My Grado cartridge $500 ( And that's a less expensive cartridge ) My Audible Illusions tube preamp, better part of three grand, and it sounded awsome! BUT!!!!! 1000 albums taking up an inordinate amount of space, the cost of the equipment, the degradation of the vinyl everytime you put the needle to it, getting up to change songs or albums every 10-20 minutes, and on and on. Just to many hassles and expense for something that can more conveniently be had on a $10 cd, and a few hundred dollar player. $1000 in equipment is not going to give you anywhere near the quality of a cheap cd playing through a $50 player. If you are really into vinyl, by all means spend the cash, I did, and enjoyed it very much, but beware the cost to get the analog signal into a digital format equal to what you can buy off the shelf for $10-$15 is cost prohibitive, and just a plain pain in the *** if you ask me. lol
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audioapprentice
post Jun 24 2009, 03:35
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Sneaker Dude:

I'd get a cheap as chips second handle turntable to try out the whole vinyl thing.

Check out a sample on very basic and old equipment
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=72973.

With regards to sound I'd back my generic $20 DVD player against any turntable ever or yet to be made.
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Axon
post Jun 24 2009, 03:45
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QUOTE (audioapprentice @ Jun 23 2009, 21:35) *
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=72973.

With regards to sound I'd back my generic $20 DVD player against any turntable ever or yet to be made.


I would tend towards that conclusion as well, but to be completely fair, there's an unusual amount of tracking/tracing/groove wear distortion on this clip. It's especially obvious on the vocals.
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gorgekko
post Jun 24 2009, 04:51
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QUOTE (Tuberocity @ May 31 2009, 13:59) *
For the layman out there ( I don't have the technical ability to explain otherwise lol ) Having been into vinyl for many years, and amassing over 1000 albums in my 48 years, I have to say stick with cd's/digital. To even come close to the quality of a cd you must have equipment up to the task. The recording will be only as good as the signal you record. My Planar 9 $2800, My Grado cartridge $500 ( And that's a less expensive cartridge ) My Audible Illusions tube preamp, better part of three grand, and it sounded awsome! BUT!!!!! 1000 albums taking up an inordinate amount of space, the cost of the equipment, the degradation of the vinyl everytime you put the needle to it, getting up to change songs or albums every 10-20 minutes, and on and on. Just to many hassles and expense for something that can more conveniently be had on a $10 cd, and a few hundred dollar player. $1000 in equipment is not going to give you anywhere near the quality of a cheap cd playing through a $50 player. If you are really into vinyl, by all means spend the cash, I did, and enjoyed it very much, but beware the cost to get the analog signal into a digital format equal to what you can buy off the shelf for $10-$15 is cost prohibitive, and just a plain pain in the *** if you ask me. lol


I don't mean this as an attack but I do have a question. Given the relatively prohibitive costs to reach a level with vinyl where it merely nearly replicates the abilities of CDs (I don't know if you DBT this so I'll simply accept your word for the sake of this discussion), why did you embark down this path? Before CDs came out I can understand it, but since their advent you seem to have spent a lot of money for an experience that you yourself admit diminishes every time you play each record due to wear.

Again, merely a question and not an accusation. I'm interested why people still prefer the vinyl experience and your setup certainly shows you to be dedicated.
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