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Article: Why We Need Audiophiles, The subjective perspective
2tec
post Apr 16 2009, 14:55
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I'm interested in what the HA community thinks about this new Gizmodo article, or blog, about Michael Fremer, an audio reviewer from Stereophile, which clearly goes completely against the grain around here. For instance:

"We play my solid 256kbps VBR MP3 of "Heroes" off my iPod; it sounds like shit. Free of pops and crackles, yes, but completely lifeless, flat in every way. This is the detail that matters: Audiophiles are basically synesthesiacs. They "see" music in three-dimensional visual space. You close your eyes in Fremer's chair, and you can perceive a detailed 3D matrix of sound, with each element occupying its own special space in the air. It's crazy and I've never experienced anything like it." ~ Why we need audiophiles


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ShowsOn
post Apr 18 2009, 13:40
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QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 22:55) *
I'm interested in what the HA community thinks about this new Gizmodo article, or blog, about Michael Fremer, an audio reviewer from Stereophile, which clearly goes completely against the grain around here.

Fremer is the guy who wrote a glowing review about a recent vinyl reissue of The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds, but then a few days later was informed that it was cut from a digital tape, and thus surreptitiously took down his old review, and replaced it with one complaining that the album sounds too digital.

This is exactly what I expect from people who push nonsense as if it is an ideological agenda. The less said about him the better.


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Axon
post Apr 18 2009, 17:13
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QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Apr 18 2009, 07:40) *
QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 22:55) *
I'm interested in what the HA community thinks about this new Gizmodo article, or blog, about Michael Fremer, an audio reviewer from Stereophile, which clearly goes completely against the grain around here.

Fremer is the guy who wrote a glowing review about a recent vinyl reissue of The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds, but then a few days later was informed that it was cut from a digital tape, and thus surreptitiously took down his old review, and replaced it with one complaining that the album sounds too digital.

This is exactly what I expect from people who push nonsense as if it is an ideological agenda. The less said about him the better.


Wow! I didn't hear this story. Have a link?
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Apr 18 2009, 23:42
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QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 18 2009, 12:13) *
QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Apr 18 2009, 07:40) *
QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 22:55) *
I'm interested in what the HA community thinks about this new Gizmodo article, or blog, about Michael Fremer, an audio reviewer from Stereophile, which clearly goes completely against the grain around here.

Fremer is the guy who wrote a glowing review about a recent vinyl reissue of The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds, but then a few days later was informed that it was cut from a digital tape, and thus surreptitiously took down his old review, and replaced it with one complaining that the album sounds too digital.

This is exactly what I expect from people who push nonsense as if it is an ideological agenda. The less said about him the better.


Wow! I didn't hear this story. Have a link?


I did a little searching around and found what appears to be two different versions of the same article with two different endings:

http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=33778

Post by "atom" dated 09.10.2008, 08:58

This appears to be the *origional* ending of the review:

"Switching to the DCC Compact Classic Edition, you get a superb combination of clarity, spectacular detail, a big sonic space, great reverb “hang time,” depth, visceral instrumental textures and depth-charge bass that’s not overdone and extremely well-controlled but perhaps a bit rounder and fuller than Wilson originally intended but that’s pure speculation.

"So while I’d bet Capitol’s new LP issue was sourced from digital, it does sound very good and better than the CD version. Perhaps it was sourced from high resolution digital or perhaps the LP cutting process adds just the right amount of “coloration” to make it sound richer, fuller and more sonically satisfying.

"If it was cut from digital do I wish it had been cut from analog? Of course. If it was cut from analog and I’m just wanking, well, if I find that out after the fact, I’ll let you know! So since the DCC Compact Classic version is OOP and probably expensive if you can locate a copy and since the Carl and the Passions—So Tough/Pet Sounds twofer and the WB single edition from 1972 is rare, this new Capitol issue is a good choice, particularly since the 180 gram pressing is absolutely perfect. My copy was dead quiet, flat perfection. My source at Capitol says Rainbo in L.A. pressed it. I hope all of their current 180 gram output is this good!

The revised ending is here:

http://www.musicangle.com/album.php?id=703

Review dated: 2009-04-01

"Switching to the DCC Compact Classic Edition, you get a superb combination of clarity, spectacular detail, a big sonic space, great reverb 'hang time,' depth, visceral instrumental textures and depth-charge bass that's not overdone and extremely well-controlled but perhaps a bit rounder and fuller than Wilson originally intended but that's pure speculation.

"So while I'd bet Capitol's new LP issue was sourced from digital, it does sound very good and better than the CD version. Perhaps it was sourced from high resolution digital or perhaps the LP cutting process adds just the right amount of 'coloration' to make it sound richer, fuller and more sonically satisfying, which it is. Still, it's a pale, thin and flat edition compared to the ones that are definitely analog.

"If it was cut from digital do I wish it had been cut from analog? Of course. If it was cut from analog and I'm just wanking, well, if I find that out after the fact, I'll let you know! So since the DCC Compact Classic version is OOP and probably expensive if you can locate a copy and since the Carl and the Passions—So Tough/Pet Sounds twofer and the WB single edition from 1972 is rare, this new Capitol issue is a good choice, particularly since the 180 gram pressing is absolutely perfect. My copy was dead quiet, flat perfection. My source at Capitol says Rainbo in L.A. pressed it. I hope all of their current 180 gram output is this good in terms of pressing quality.

"I just wish Capitol had used an analog master tape because this "clean, pristine" reissue will most likely bore the shit out of you the way CDs usually do.

"Yes, it's better sounding than the CD version but it shares all of CD's worst qualities: flat, dimensionless, tinny, textureless and emotionally stunted.

"Anyone who's bought this and thinks it sounds good can only think so because they haven't heard one of the good reissues.

"Capitol had an opportunity to produce sonic greatness and instead insults one of Brian Wilson's greatest recordings.



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B0RK
post Apr 19 2009, 01:41
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QUOTE
(kornchild2002 @ Apr 18 2009, 10:39)
B0RK, you continue to step around my question regarding blind ABX testing (which Frumious B asked again). What is so wrong/incorrect/punishable by death when someone listens to lossy music on an iPod knowing that they cannot properly ABX the differences between that lossy music and the source lossy files?


What's wrong with it is that I truly find it hard to believe they know what they CAN abx or not at all,
& definitely do not understand that they can get Better at it.

To truly ABX something, anything, in my experience anyway, you'll have to experience it for quite a lengthier time , then these tests usually allow for.
I have been in, & conducted many real life AB tests.
I have even been exposed to & worked with the common standard here, the Foobar ABX,(in the LossyWav development thread if you are interested ).

So to give an analogy to the process, it's like when sometimes you have to walk with a pair of shoes for a while,
before you know that they're not as good for your intended use as you might have hoped for.

Then ,you try to use that experience on your next shoe purchase,
realizing that the next time you are truly testing cowboy boots ,
you'd better make sure you have a horse & a ranch around,
cause cruising the hood just won't give you quite the input you're looking for...


QUOTE
(kornchild2002 @ Apr 18 2009, 10:39)
You really aren't getting your point across. Are people who listen to lossy music through an iPod uneducated?


Maybe you're right, maybe I am not getting it across as well as I thought I did ...
I am trying, & Id be the first to say that nothing is in pure Black & White.
Not even ABX tests.

What I am saying is, it's GREAT if you love & enjoy your lossy music on your portable !.
(& please Do tell me ,after some serious thought about it, if you find any sense in what I explain)

It sad , if you know nothing else , or even the source product, on a deeper level.

but it Really stinks, when based on practically zero experience with analog gear (This in itself is not an accusation as it's not that accessible nowadays),
& more then likely zero experience with any High end gear at all, you still keep hearing the same Anti-Audiophile BS again & again.

No, they do not have a problem with wine taster's getting paid to sniff around worse then an Ex Hollywood Lifestyle bygone, with his powdery habits still intact ,as that's a real profession, that demands expertise.

Even Diamond Studded luxury water bottles don't rattle their cage too much.

Its Audiophiles, that they have some 'Real' Hard 'No ABX proof' evidence against ..

You see ,the Truth of the matter is ,that people with experience ,
will never make such comments. They remember (sometimes painfully I must say) that some audio systems, can truly change your whole view of things around, & many of those who heard a superb analog setup , will just do their best to forget it if they cannot afford it.

So, when this anti audiophile BS is being expressed by a .. you guessed it, a Lame version Comparing iPod waving Troll, most of us who know how far he is from knowing the half of it, as we know what the damn truth is :

That we'd trade our iPods (or a tiny bit more ..) for Fremer's system anytime.

So we sit on the fence, & say nothing you see, & we have our reasons ....
& who is We exactly ??
Anyone that's been through it, & would like to keep minding his own business & see how it plays out.

Its engineers (were working on a new portable ..hmm)
pro musicians (now that I'm on Itunes , I think I am gonna zip it)
Recording Technicians (If Ill defend it I am facing yet another ABX test ..I think NOT),
audio industry guys (we Finally HAVE a Profitable MODEL - no way I am talking now)
Audio programmers (Well I am working in an audio compression startup),
& your neighbourly plastic surgeon (Hehehe, you're just jealous you can't afford it, Loser)

You can find some of them right here in HA.
We live off it one way or another, so Fence it is for us.

Some though, are not just sitting on the fence with it, they are taking notes.

While watching the kids play ,some douchebag marketing guy, comes out with an idea ..
If the kids like their lossy audio that much , let's gift wrap it & sell it to them.

Another guy thinks: "Hell man , these kids will never buy these damn nice speakers, just for playing these mp3s , they just don't know any better.. "
calls China & changes his order to Earbuds, the same factory make the headphones as well you see.

I can go on & on ,but I won't, If these words are not enough to get the point across, consider thes quick facts:

The STANDARD - is always the IN DEMAND PRODUCT.
The In Demand product quickly gets competitive.
When the standard lowers, anything above it becomes Luxury.
When that happens, eventually, that means a bigger hole in your pocket ,for the same or lower quality.

Now I Hear you ask : "Well surely at least in the Audio Societies, Someone Must have made Some Effort to keep the Audio Standard High right ??"

well I think You can still find some of them under the pile of portables they were stoned with.
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Apr 19 2009, 12:21
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QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 20:41) *
To truly ABX something, anything, in my experience anyway, you'll have to experience it for quite a lengthier time , then these tests usually allow for.


Straw man, because none of these people are walking cold into the ABX tests.

As a rule, everybody has experienced the thing being tested for a far lengthier time , thea just what these tests usually allow for.

You're basically asking us to believe people are doing ABX tests of MP3s, having never heard a MP3 in their life.

Yup, a big straw man. :-(

QUOTE
I have even been exposed to & worked with the common standard here, the Foobar ABX,(in the LossyWav development thread if you are interested ).


So, are you saying that you did your Foobar tests having never listened to a MP3 in your life? Can't be true!

QUOTE
I am trying, & I'd be the first to say that nothing is in pure Black & White.


You're not the first to say that nothing is black and white, you're the last. If you think your are first, your ego is way ahead of your intellect.

QUOTE
What I am saying is, it's GREAT if you love & enjoy your lossy music on your portable !.


Dismissive attitude noted. :-(

QUOTE
It sad , if you know nothing else , or even the source product, on a deeper level.


Do you seriously think that people are comparing MP3s to MP3's? That's what you just said. You said that we know nothing of the source product. Boy, do you have your head tucked where the sun shines not!

Just for the record, people are compaing MP3s to .wav files much of the time. That's the source product, right? Where do you get these wild ideas from? Your buddy Fremer?

QUOTE
& more then likely zero experience with any High end gear at all,


Dismissive attitude noted, for the zillionth time.

Do you seriously think that none of us ever listen to high end gear? I';ve been listening to various people's high end gear for decades. I might even have had a little of it myself.

What you don't seem to realize that some of us were held hostige in an analog-only world for many decades of painful love of music. Painful, because all we had to listen to was analog. I had to wait until I was in my l mid-20s berfore there was any good SS to buy. I had to wait until I was in my late 30s before there was any digital to buy. So, I spent about 25 years in a pure analog world. I had nothing but vinyl and tubes to listen to for all of that time. Not good. Not fun.

QUOTE
you still keep hearing the same Anti-Audiophile BS again & again.


It's not anti=audiophile BS that is going on here at HA. What's going on is anti-BS, pro-science, pro honest experiences and fair evaluations.

QUOTE
You see , the Truth of the matter is ,that people with experience , will never make such comments. They remember (sometimes painfully I must say) that some audio systems, can truly change your whole view of things around, & many of those who heard a superb analog setup , will just do their best to forget it if they cannot afford it.


You don't know how many times people have tried to spring that BS on me.

You don't get it. People like myself and my good friend Tom Nousaine (and a lot of HA-ers) can spend days at these high end exibitions like the CES and HE200n, and come away with a bad taste in our mouth. We can come away with a profound desire to get back home and listen to our home systems because our home systems sound better. We moved past the water-filled interconnects the size of garden hoses. We've moved past the magic capacitors and glowing bottles. We've been cured of anti-digital hysteria. We've leaned how to do good listening tests.

QUOTE
So, when this anti audiophile BS is being expressed by a .. you guessed it, a Lame version Comparing iPod waving Troll, most of us who know how far he is from knowing the half of it, as we know what the damn truth is :


Except you obvioiusly don't know the truth. As digital playback devices go, there's nothing wrong with an iPod or somthing like it playing uncompressed or losslessly compressed .wav files. Now the ear buds that come with the iPod are another story but that is easy enough to fix, even though you might feel a little strange paying as much for the earphones as the iPod. As far as lossy-compression goes, get the bitrates up, use a good encoder, and there is no problem.

There's a reason why high enders are so hysterical with their flames at lossy files - that lossy compression works at all shows that they've been spouting BS for decades. They've been saying that good digital recordings don't have enough information in them, and lossy compression shows that you can take 1/2, 3/4, maybe 7/8 or more of the information out of a .wav file and the ear is totally fooled.

QUOTE
That we'd trade our iPods (or a tiny bit more ..) for Fremer's system anytime.


Not at all. I can pack a good portable music player and some nice earphones out into the woods and sit on a backwoods hillside overlooking a pristene lake that I just paddled across and ate some fish out of and have my good tunes, all at the same time. Fremer's sytem is about 99.9% BS, cost-wise. Rememer that for 0.1% of $350,000 you can buy some good headphones and a good digital music player and have sound that is no worse, and probably even better than Fremer's system because you've taken the tubes and vinyl out of the equation.

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Frumious B
post Apr 19 2009, 14:10
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 19 2009, 07:21) *
Fremer's sytem is about 99.9% BS, cost-wise. Rememer that for 0.1% of $350,000 you can buy some good headphones and a good digital music player and have sound that is no worse, and probably even better than Fremer's system because you've taken the tubes and vinyl out of the equation.


Fremer's system just seems so woefully inefficient to me. I bet the thing has to be warmed up for 45 minutes before you can even listen to a scrap of music. Then you have to get up every fifteen to twenty-five minutes to change the record and you're also limited to listening to one album by one artist at a time. Of course this is coming from a guy whose relationship with vinyl is roughly equivalent to his relationship with Edison cylinders.

When I started out buying music in the early eighties I was buying cassette tapes and then moved on to CDs around 1987. I got into mp3 around 2004, but did a crap job of ripping my music to 128kbps because I didn't know any better. I loved the ease of the technology, but I also lamented the thought that I was cheating myself in my listening. I only just got around to rectifying that, hopefully, once and for all. There would have been some truth to the point of view that I was trading convenience for quality six months ago, but not today.

It wasn't as bad as I feared because I figured out that mp3 actually hits transparency around 160kbps for me in the overwhelming majority of cases. I did the whole shebang to lossless and then converted to Nero AAC. I've lived with the AAC files for a couple of weeks now and I must say that I am uniformly thrilled with the results and my whole library still fits on an iPod 120GB with about 8GB to spare. All this activity on my part is a direct result of knowledge I've gained by lurking on this forum and then registering to ask a few questions.

You can learn way more here than sitting at the feet on some supposed audio guru like Fremer or in some audiophile hellhole like the Hoffman forum. For the way that I and a lot of people live a dedicated listening space where one can lock the door and spend hours and hours isn't an option because we have lives and stuff to do. Fremer's system wouldn't be a good fit for us even if we had the money to burn. It's far better to take the thing that you know is the best fit and make it as good as you can possibly make it instead of trying to shoehorn yourself into something that doesn't really suit you out some misplaced sense of rightness that might not even be rooted in anything factual anyway.

This post has been edited by Frumious B: Apr 19 2009, 14:13
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Posts in this topic
- 2tec   Article: Why We Need Audiophiles   Apr 16 2009, 14:55
- - lvqcl   QUOTE Audiophiles are basically synesthesiacs. Ne...   Apr 16 2009, 15:29
- - nig nig the conqueror   I just got through reading that and I HAD to come ...   Apr 16 2009, 15:31
- - Fandango   Hey , nig nig! How can you say that! They ...   Apr 16 2009, 15:44
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (Fandango @ Apr 16 2009, 15:44) The...   Apr 16 2009, 19:46
- - Bodhi   If I had a $350,000 stereo system I wouldn...   Apr 16 2009, 16:03
- - krabapple   Sad to read how many commenters there thought it w...   Apr 16 2009, 16:16
|- - nig nig the conqueror   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 16 2009, 11:16) Sa...   Apr 16 2009, 16:39
- - Arnold B. Krueger   Unlike most people who post here, I've had the...   Apr 16 2009, 16:32
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 16 2009, 11...   Apr 16 2009, 16:54
||- - krabapple   IIRC (and I may not) in his 'real life' Fr...   Apr 16 2009, 17:02
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 16 2009, 10...   Apr 16 2009, 21:24
|- - shenzi   Elsewhere on the site someone posted a link to an ...   Apr 17 2009, 11:47
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (shenzi @ Apr 17 2009, 06:47) Elsew...   Apr 17 2009, 16:32
- - skelly831   I've been a Gizmodo reader for a while, but al...   Apr 16 2009, 16:41
- - 2Bdecided   I don't think it's that bad. If you want t...   Apr 16 2009, 16:44
|- - nig nig the conqueror   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 16 2009, 11:44) So...   Apr 16 2009, 16:50
- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Bodhi @ Apr 16 2009, 07:03) If I h...   Apr 16 2009, 17:04
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Apr 16 2009, 12:04) I...   Apr 16 2009, 18:03
- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 06:55) They ...   Apr 16 2009, 18:04
|- - rpp3po   In the context of synesthesia the 3D metaphor is r...   Apr 16 2009, 19:06
||- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Apr 16 2009, 11:06) But i...   Apr 16 2009, 23:31
||- - benski   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Apr 16 2009, 18:31...   Apr 17 2009, 00:40
||- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (benski @ Apr 16 2009, 16:40) The 4...   Apr 17 2009, 04:13
|- - Linux Zealot Troll   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Apr 16 2009, 18:04...   Apr 18 2009, 22:29
- - caligae   This might finally give some insight to their obje...   Apr 16 2009, 18:35
- - 2Bdecided   But good systems with excellently matched speakers...   Apr 16 2009, 18:41
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 16 2009, 13:41) Bu...   Apr 16 2009, 21:49
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 16 2009, 20...   Apr 17 2009, 13:16
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 17 2009, 08:16) Le...   Apr 17 2009, 17:37
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 17 2009, 08:16) QU...   Apr 17 2009, 20:16
- - zipr   Has there ever been any studies where vinyl, CD, a...   Apr 16 2009, 19:30
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (zipr @ Apr 16 2009, 14:30) Has the...   Apr 17 2009, 16:45
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 17 2009, 16:45) QU...   Apr 17 2009, 17:09
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 17 2009, 11:45) QU...   Apr 17 2009, 23:47
- - timcupery   synesthesia is a real thing, and the comparison ma...   Apr 16 2009, 20:22
- - HotshotGG   QUOTE I'm interested in what the HA community ...   Apr 16 2009, 21:17
- - Axon   I'm not really sure Fremer and Mahoney actuall...   Apr 16 2009, 21:24
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 16 2009, 16:24) QUOTE (...   Apr 17 2009, 17:02
- - Axon   Nope. According to Mejias, Fremer's a Jersey m...   Apr 16 2009, 21:51
- - SnTholiday   Do you think Fremer really gets into the music wit...   Apr 16 2009, 22:05
- - DVDdoug   2tec, Thanks for that post & link. Good stuf...   Apr 16 2009, 23:08
|- - carpman   QUOTE It's like when you go to the symphony, a...   Apr 17 2009, 08:30
- - Axon   I think it's abundantly clear that Fremer is a...   Apr 16 2009, 23:45
|- - /mnt   So if I upgrade my crappy PC speakers and my cheap...   Apr 17 2009, 02:01
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 16 2009, 18:45) I think...   Apr 17 2009, 17:14
|- - hybris   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 16 2009, 23:45) I think...   Apr 19 2009, 10:10
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (hybris @ Apr 19 2009, 04:10) Is th...   Apr 19 2009, 12:01
|- - hybris   QUOTE (cpchan @ Apr 19 2009, 12:01) QUOTE...   Apr 19 2009, 12:43
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (hybris @ Apr 19 2009, 06:43) Eatin...   Apr 19 2009, 13:20
|- - hybris   QUOTE (cpchan @ Apr 19 2009, 13:20) QUOTE...   Apr 19 2009, 18:55
- - B0RK   From what I have read , I have to say I see no pro...   Apr 17 2009, 00:56
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 19:56) From wh...   Apr 17 2009, 17:16
- - Axon   Calm down B0RK. (B0RK B0RK.) None of us are arguin...   Apr 17 2009, 01:11
- - greynol   Like the suggestion that an expensive hi-fi system...   Apr 17 2009, 01:18
- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 15:56) He is a...   Apr 17 2009, 02:38
- - shakey_snake   We need audiophools about as much as we need AIDS....   Apr 17 2009, 05:12
- - B0RK   Well fine thoughts expressed indeed . But I still...   Apr 17 2009, 05:13
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 23:13) I Still...   Apr 17 2009, 05:29
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 21:13) So I fe...   Apr 17 2009, 05:32
|- - greynol   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 21:13) Oh ...   Apr 17 2009, 06:35
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 20:13) Many of...   Apr 17 2009, 06:40
|- - Axon   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 23:13) I Still...   Apr 17 2009, 07:18
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 00:13) Oh ...   Apr 17 2009, 17:24
- - Dracaena   Hilarious. For $350k you could spend a good f...   Apr 17 2009, 07:36
- - MichaelW   @carpman One day you'll be old, fat, and in th...   Apr 17 2009, 09:11
|- - carpman   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Apr 17 2009, 08:11) One...   Apr 17 2009, 09:57
- - HotshotGG   QUOTE There is a cottage industry in the audiophil...   Apr 17 2009, 13:58
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Apr 17 2009, 07:58) I ...   Apr 17 2009, 14:38
- - B0RK   First, @2Bdecided ,Thanks you for bringing some mu...   Apr 17 2009, 21:14
|- - rpp3po   A post's length often inversely correlates wit...   Apr 17 2009, 21:53
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 13:14) Some vi...   Apr 17 2009, 23:12
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 12:14) for all...   Apr 17 2009, 23:23
- - pdq   This is very disappointing. Year after year the me...   Apr 17 2009, 21:40
- - Axon   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 17 2009, 10...   Apr 18 2009, 04:22
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 17 2009, 19:22) The dis...   Apr 18 2009, 05:50
- - B0RK   @Ron Jones well ...Now in your post you switched t...   Apr 18 2009, 06:15
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 22:15) So afte...   Apr 18 2009, 17:39
||- - chelgrian   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Apr 18 2009, 16:39...   Apr 18 2009, 17:48
||- - Fandango   QUOTE (chelgrian @ Apr 18 2009, 18:48) So...   Apr 18 2009, 17:50
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 21:15) You...   Apr 18 2009, 20:17
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 01:15) This is...   Apr 19 2009, 06:07
- - botface   Just thought I'd throw in a couple of observat...   Apr 18 2009, 12:35
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (botface @ Apr 18 2009, 12:35) On t...   Apr 18 2009, 16:14
- - ShowsOn   QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 22:55) I'm...   Apr 18 2009, 13:40
|- - Axon   QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Apr 18 2009, 07:40) QUOT...   Apr 18 2009, 17:13
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 18 2009, 12:13) QUOTE (...   Apr 18 2009, 23:42
||- - B0RK   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Apr 18 2009, 10:39) B0RK, y...   Apr 19 2009, 01:41
||- - Frumious B   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 20:41) That we...   Apr 19 2009, 04:05
||- - pdq   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 20:41) To trul...   Apr 19 2009, 04:55
|||- - B0RK   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 18 2009, 21:55) It truly...   Apr 19 2009, 06:22
|||- - krabapple   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 19 2009, 01:22) But We ...   Apr 19 2009, 06:42
|||- - pdq   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 19 2009, 01:22) QUOTE (...   Apr 19 2009, 13:15
||- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 18:41) What...   Apr 19 2009, 06:36
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 20:41) To trul...   Apr 19 2009, 12:21
||- - Frumious B   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 19 2009, 07...   Apr 19 2009, 14:10
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Apr 18 2009, 14:40) Frem...   Apr 18 2009, 17:43
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (Fandango @ Apr 18 2009, 09:43) Isn...   Apr 18 2009, 19:07
- - Frumious B   What I find ridiculous about this article is the c...   Apr 18 2009, 17:22
- - ShowsOn   QUOTE (Frumious B @ Apr 19 2009, 01:22) W...   Apr 19 2009, 04:58
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