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Article: Why We Need Audiophiles, The subjective perspective
2tec
post Apr 16 2009, 14:55
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I'm interested in what the HA community thinks about this new Gizmodo article, or blog, about Michael Fremer, an audio reviewer from Stereophile, which clearly goes completely against the grain around here. For instance:

"We play my solid 256kbps VBR MP3 of "Heroes" off my iPod; it sounds like shit. Free of pops and crackles, yes, but completely lifeless, flat in every way. This is the detail that matters: Audiophiles are basically synesthesiacs. They "see" music in three-dimensional visual space. You close your eyes in Fremer's chair, and you can perceive a detailed 3D matrix of sound, with each element occupying its own special space in the air. It's crazy and I've never experienced anything like it." ~ Why we need audiophiles


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ShowsOn
post Apr 18 2009, 13:40
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QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 22:55) *
I'm interested in what the HA community thinks about this new Gizmodo article, or blog, about Michael Fremer, an audio reviewer from Stereophile, which clearly goes completely against the grain around here.

Fremer is the guy who wrote a glowing review about a recent vinyl reissue of The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds, but then a few days later was informed that it was cut from a digital tape, and thus surreptitiously took down his old review, and replaced it with one complaining that the album sounds too digital.

This is exactly what I expect from people who push nonsense as if it is an ideological agenda. The less said about him the better.


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Axon
post Apr 18 2009, 17:13
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QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Apr 18 2009, 07:40) *
QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 22:55) *
I'm interested in what the HA community thinks about this new Gizmodo article, or blog, about Michael Fremer, an audio reviewer from Stereophile, which clearly goes completely against the grain around here.

Fremer is the guy who wrote a glowing review about a recent vinyl reissue of The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds, but then a few days later was informed that it was cut from a digital tape, and thus surreptitiously took down his old review, and replaced it with one complaining that the album sounds too digital.

This is exactly what I expect from people who push nonsense as if it is an ideological agenda. The less said about him the better.


Wow! I didn't hear this story. Have a link?
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Apr 18 2009, 23:42
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QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 18 2009, 12:13) *
QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Apr 18 2009, 07:40) *
QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 22:55) *
I'm interested in what the HA community thinks about this new Gizmodo article, or blog, about Michael Fremer, an audio reviewer from Stereophile, which clearly goes completely against the grain around here.

Fremer is the guy who wrote a glowing review about a recent vinyl reissue of The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds, but then a few days later was informed that it was cut from a digital tape, and thus surreptitiously took down his old review, and replaced it with one complaining that the album sounds too digital.

This is exactly what I expect from people who push nonsense as if it is an ideological agenda. The less said about him the better.


Wow! I didn't hear this story. Have a link?


I did a little searching around and found what appears to be two different versions of the same article with two different endings:

http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=33778

Post by "atom" dated 09.10.2008, 08:58

This appears to be the *origional* ending of the review:

"Switching to the DCC Compact Classic Edition, you get a superb combination of clarity, spectacular detail, a big sonic space, great reverb “hang time,” depth, visceral instrumental textures and depth-charge bass that’s not overdone and extremely well-controlled but perhaps a bit rounder and fuller than Wilson originally intended but that’s pure speculation.

"So while I’d bet Capitol’s new LP issue was sourced from digital, it does sound very good and better than the CD version. Perhaps it was sourced from high resolution digital or perhaps the LP cutting process adds just the right amount of “coloration” to make it sound richer, fuller and more sonically satisfying.

"If it was cut from digital do I wish it had been cut from analog? Of course. If it was cut from analog and I’m just wanking, well, if I find that out after the fact, I’ll let you know! So since the DCC Compact Classic version is OOP and probably expensive if you can locate a copy and since the Carl and the Passions—So Tough/Pet Sounds twofer and the WB single edition from 1972 is rare, this new Capitol issue is a good choice, particularly since the 180 gram pressing is absolutely perfect. My copy was dead quiet, flat perfection. My source at Capitol says Rainbo in L.A. pressed it. I hope all of their current 180 gram output is this good!

The revised ending is here:

http://www.musicangle.com/album.php?id=703

Review dated: 2009-04-01

"Switching to the DCC Compact Classic Edition, you get a superb combination of clarity, spectacular detail, a big sonic space, great reverb 'hang time,' depth, visceral instrumental textures and depth-charge bass that's not overdone and extremely well-controlled but perhaps a bit rounder and fuller than Wilson originally intended but that's pure speculation.

"So while I'd bet Capitol's new LP issue was sourced from digital, it does sound very good and better than the CD version. Perhaps it was sourced from high resolution digital or perhaps the LP cutting process adds just the right amount of 'coloration' to make it sound richer, fuller and more sonically satisfying, which it is. Still, it's a pale, thin and flat edition compared to the ones that are definitely analog.

"If it was cut from digital do I wish it had been cut from analog? Of course. If it was cut from analog and I'm just wanking, well, if I find that out after the fact, I'll let you know! So since the DCC Compact Classic version is OOP and probably expensive if you can locate a copy and since the Carl and the Passions—So Tough/Pet Sounds twofer and the WB single edition from 1972 is rare, this new Capitol issue is a good choice, particularly since the 180 gram pressing is absolutely perfect. My copy was dead quiet, flat perfection. My source at Capitol says Rainbo in L.A. pressed it. I hope all of their current 180 gram output is this good in terms of pressing quality.

"I just wish Capitol had used an analog master tape because this "clean, pristine" reissue will most likely bore the shit out of you the way CDs usually do.

"Yes, it's better sounding than the CD version but it shares all of CD's worst qualities: flat, dimensionless, tinny, textureless and emotionally stunted.

"Anyone who's bought this and thinks it sounds good can only think so because they haven't heard one of the good reissues.

"Capitol had an opportunity to produce sonic greatness and instead insults one of Brian Wilson's greatest recordings.



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B0RK
post Apr 19 2009, 01:41
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QUOTE
(kornchild2002 @ Apr 18 2009, 10:39)
B0RK, you continue to step around my question regarding blind ABX testing (which Frumious B asked again). What is so wrong/incorrect/punishable by death when someone listens to lossy music on an iPod knowing that they cannot properly ABX the differences between that lossy music and the source lossy files?


What's wrong with it is that I truly find it hard to believe they know what they CAN abx or not at all,
& definitely do not understand that they can get Better at it.

To truly ABX something, anything, in my experience anyway, you'll have to experience it for quite a lengthier time , then these tests usually allow for.
I have been in, & conducted many real life AB tests.
I have even been exposed to & worked with the common standard here, the Foobar ABX,(in the LossyWav development thread if you are interested ).

So to give an analogy to the process, it's like when sometimes you have to walk with a pair of shoes for a while,
before you know that they're not as good for your intended use as you might have hoped for.

Then ,you try to use that experience on your next shoe purchase,
realizing that the next time you are truly testing cowboy boots ,
you'd better make sure you have a horse & a ranch around,
cause cruising the hood just won't give you quite the input you're looking for...


QUOTE
(kornchild2002 @ Apr 18 2009, 10:39)
You really aren't getting your point across. Are people who listen to lossy music through an iPod uneducated?


Maybe you're right, maybe I am not getting it across as well as I thought I did ...
I am trying, & Id be the first to say that nothing is in pure Black & White.
Not even ABX tests.

What I am saying is, it's GREAT if you love & enjoy your lossy music on your portable !.
(& please Do tell me ,after some serious thought about it, if you find any sense in what I explain)

It sad , if you know nothing else , or even the source product, on a deeper level.

but it Really stinks, when based on practically zero experience with analog gear (This in itself is not an accusation as it's not that accessible nowadays),
& more then likely zero experience with any High end gear at all, you still keep hearing the same Anti-Audiophile BS again & again.

No, they do not have a problem with wine taster's getting paid to sniff around worse then an Ex Hollywood Lifestyle bygone, with his powdery habits still intact ,as that's a real profession, that demands expertise.

Even Diamond Studded luxury water bottles don't rattle their cage too much.

Its Audiophiles, that they have some 'Real' Hard 'No ABX proof' evidence against ..

You see ,the Truth of the matter is ,that people with experience ,
will never make such comments. They remember (sometimes painfully I must say) that some audio systems, can truly change your whole view of things around, & many of those who heard a superb analog setup , will just do their best to forget it if they cannot afford it.

So, when this anti audiophile BS is being expressed by a .. you guessed it, a Lame version Comparing iPod waving Troll, most of us who know how far he is from knowing the half of it, as we know what the damn truth is :

That we'd trade our iPods (or a tiny bit more ..) for Fremer's system anytime.

So we sit on the fence, & say nothing you see, & we have our reasons ....
& who is We exactly ??
Anyone that's been through it, & would like to keep minding his own business & see how it plays out.

Its engineers (were working on a new portable ..hmm)
pro musicians (now that I'm on Itunes , I think I am gonna zip it)
Recording Technicians (If Ill defend it I am facing yet another ABX test ..I think NOT),
audio industry guys (we Finally HAVE a Profitable MODEL - no way I am talking now)
Audio programmers (Well I am working in an audio compression startup),
& your neighbourly plastic surgeon (Hehehe, you're just jealous you can't afford it, Loser)

You can find some of them right here in HA.
We live off it one way or another, so Fence it is for us.

Some though, are not just sitting on the fence with it, they are taking notes.

While watching the kids play ,some douchebag marketing guy, comes out with an idea ..
If the kids like their lossy audio that much , let's gift wrap it & sell it to them.

Another guy thinks: "Hell man , these kids will never buy these damn nice speakers, just for playing these mp3s , they just don't know any better.. "
calls China & changes his order to Earbuds, the same factory make the headphones as well you see.

I can go on & on ,but I won't, If these words are not enough to get the point across, consider thes quick facts:

The STANDARD - is always the IN DEMAND PRODUCT.
The In Demand product quickly gets competitive.
When the standard lowers, anything above it becomes Luxury.
When that happens, eventually, that means a bigger hole in your pocket ,for the same or lower quality.

Now I Hear you ask : "Well surely at least in the Audio Societies, Someone Must have made Some Effort to keep the Audio Standard High right ??"

well I think You can still find some of them under the pile of portables they were stoned with.
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pdq
post Apr 19 2009, 04:55
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QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 20:41) *
To truly ABX something, anything, in my experience anyway, you'll have to experience it for quite a lengthier time , then these tests usually allow for.

It truly amazes me every time someone is unable to back up his/her statments by ABX testing, the excuses they give for why it is the fault of ABX testing and not any kind of disproof of their position.

In case you hadn't heard, there is no time limit in ABX testing. Sometimes people take several days when it is particularly difficult to ABX something.
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B0RK
post Apr 19 2009, 06:22
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QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 18 2009, 21:55) *
It truly amazes me every time someone is unable to back up his/her statments by ABX testing, the excuses they give for why it is the fault of ABX testing and not any kind of disproof of their position.


I was not discrediting it as another tool to hear differences ,
I WAS discrediting it in regards to many people using it as a way to prove to themselves they cannot hear the any difference, & once they have done that , they take That as the complete & utter truth & act accordingly.

Vice versa applies as well.

QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 18 2009, 21:55) *
In case you hadn't heard, there is no time limit in ABX testing. Sometimes people take several days when it is particularly difficult to ABX something.


No ,you cannot do it for for several days , O-K ? ....
What you CAN do is do many testing sessions.

& they need to be spread over time to keep the results reliable.
That's the nature of these tests , nothing you can do about it.

But We are not talking about me now are we ?
Cause if you are , you could easily have had a taste of my ABXing in the LossyWav thread.
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pdq
post Apr 19 2009, 13:15
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QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 19 2009, 01:22) *
QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 18 2009, 21:55) *
It truly amazes me every time someone is unable to back up his/her statments by ABX testing, the excuses they give for why it is the fault of ABX testing and not any kind of disproof of their position.


I was not discrediting it as another tool to hear differences ,
I WAS discrediting it in regards to many people using it as a way to prove to themselves they cannot hear the any difference, & once they have done that , they take That as the complete & utter truth & act accordingly.

Vice versa applies as well.

I would hope that nobody is using this tool as you suggest, to convice anyone that there is no audible difference. On the contrary, the function of this tool is to apply standardized testing when one is convinced that one can hear a difference. The results of ABX testing are then used to show either that there is a high probability that that person is able to hear that difference, or else that there is insufficient evidence that the difference can be heard. These results apply to that one person with that particular material at that particular time, nothing more.

Your implication that ABX testing is being misused in the way that you suggest here at HA is quite absurd. On the other hand, the more people that claim to hear a difference, then fail to prove it by ABX testing, the greater the evidence that the difference is not audible to nearly as many people as had been claimed. In particular, the claim that a difference is so obvious that anybody with half-decent hearing could hear it, then the person making the claim is themselves not able to hear it as they thought, happens so often here that it has become the generally expected outcome.

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Posts in this topic
- 2tec   Article: Why We Need Audiophiles   Apr 16 2009, 14:55
- - lvqcl   QUOTE Audiophiles are basically synesthesiacs. Ne...   Apr 16 2009, 15:29
- - nig nig the conqueror   I just got through reading that and I HAD to come ...   Apr 16 2009, 15:31
- - Fandango   Hey , nig nig! How can you say that! They ...   Apr 16 2009, 15:44
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (Fandango @ Apr 16 2009, 15:44) The...   Apr 16 2009, 19:46
- - Bodhi   If I had a $350,000 stereo system I wouldn...   Apr 16 2009, 16:03
- - krabapple   Sad to read how many commenters there thought it w...   Apr 16 2009, 16:16
|- - nig nig the conqueror   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 16 2009, 11:16) Sa...   Apr 16 2009, 16:39
- - Arnold B. Krueger   Unlike most people who post here, I've had the...   Apr 16 2009, 16:32
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 16 2009, 11...   Apr 16 2009, 16:54
||- - krabapple   IIRC (and I may not) in his 'real life' Fr...   Apr 16 2009, 17:02
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 16 2009, 10...   Apr 16 2009, 21:24
|- - shenzi   Elsewhere on the site someone posted a link to an ...   Apr 17 2009, 11:47
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (shenzi @ Apr 17 2009, 06:47) Elsew...   Apr 17 2009, 16:32
- - skelly831   I've been a Gizmodo reader for a while, but al...   Apr 16 2009, 16:41
- - 2Bdecided   I don't think it's that bad. If you want t...   Apr 16 2009, 16:44
|- - nig nig the conqueror   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 16 2009, 11:44) So...   Apr 16 2009, 16:50
- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Bodhi @ Apr 16 2009, 07:03) If I h...   Apr 16 2009, 17:04
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Apr 16 2009, 12:04) I...   Apr 16 2009, 18:03
- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 06:55) They ...   Apr 16 2009, 18:04
|- - rpp3po   In the context of synesthesia the 3D metaphor is r...   Apr 16 2009, 19:06
||- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Apr 16 2009, 11:06) But i...   Apr 16 2009, 23:31
||- - benski   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Apr 16 2009, 18:31...   Apr 17 2009, 00:40
||- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (benski @ Apr 16 2009, 16:40) The 4...   Apr 17 2009, 04:13
|- - Linux Zealot Troll   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Apr 16 2009, 18:04...   Apr 18 2009, 22:29
- - caligae   This might finally give some insight to their obje...   Apr 16 2009, 18:35
- - 2Bdecided   But good systems with excellently matched speakers...   Apr 16 2009, 18:41
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 16 2009, 13:41) Bu...   Apr 16 2009, 21:49
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 16 2009, 20...   Apr 17 2009, 13:16
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 17 2009, 08:16) Le...   Apr 17 2009, 17:37
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 17 2009, 08:16) QU...   Apr 17 2009, 20:16
- - zipr   Has there ever been any studies where vinyl, CD, a...   Apr 16 2009, 19:30
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (zipr @ Apr 16 2009, 14:30) Has the...   Apr 17 2009, 16:45
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 17 2009, 16:45) QU...   Apr 17 2009, 17:09
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 17 2009, 11:45) QU...   Apr 17 2009, 23:47
- - timcupery   synesthesia is a real thing, and the comparison ma...   Apr 16 2009, 20:22
- - HotshotGG   QUOTE I'm interested in what the HA community ...   Apr 16 2009, 21:17
- - Axon   I'm not really sure Fremer and Mahoney actuall...   Apr 16 2009, 21:24
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 16 2009, 16:24) QUOTE (...   Apr 17 2009, 17:02
- - Axon   Nope. According to Mejias, Fremer's a Jersey m...   Apr 16 2009, 21:51
- - SnTholiday   Do you think Fremer really gets into the music wit...   Apr 16 2009, 22:05
- - DVDdoug   2tec, Thanks for that post & link. Good stuf...   Apr 16 2009, 23:08
|- - carpman   QUOTE It's like when you go to the symphony, a...   Apr 17 2009, 08:30
- - Axon   I think it's abundantly clear that Fremer is a...   Apr 16 2009, 23:45
|- - /mnt   So if I upgrade my crappy PC speakers and my cheap...   Apr 17 2009, 02:01
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 16 2009, 18:45) I think...   Apr 17 2009, 17:14
|- - hybris   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 16 2009, 23:45) I think...   Apr 19 2009, 10:10
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (hybris @ Apr 19 2009, 04:10) Is th...   Apr 19 2009, 12:01
|- - hybris   QUOTE (cpchan @ Apr 19 2009, 12:01) QUOTE...   Apr 19 2009, 12:43
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (hybris @ Apr 19 2009, 06:43) Eatin...   Apr 19 2009, 13:20
|- - hybris   QUOTE (cpchan @ Apr 19 2009, 13:20) QUOTE...   Apr 19 2009, 18:55
- - B0RK   From what I have read , I have to say I see no pro...   Apr 17 2009, 00:56
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 19:56) From wh...   Apr 17 2009, 17:16
- - Axon   Calm down B0RK. (B0RK B0RK.) None of us are arguin...   Apr 17 2009, 01:11
- - greynol   Like the suggestion that an expensive hi-fi system...   Apr 17 2009, 01:18
- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 15:56) He is a...   Apr 17 2009, 02:38
- - shakey_snake   We need audiophools about as much as we need AIDS....   Apr 17 2009, 05:12
- - B0RK   Well fine thoughts expressed indeed . But I still...   Apr 17 2009, 05:13
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 23:13) I Still...   Apr 17 2009, 05:29
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 21:13) So I fe...   Apr 17 2009, 05:32
|- - greynol   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 21:13) Oh ...   Apr 17 2009, 06:35
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 20:13) Many of...   Apr 17 2009, 06:40
|- - Axon   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 16 2009, 23:13) I Still...   Apr 17 2009, 07:18
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 00:13) Oh ...   Apr 17 2009, 17:24
- - Dracaena   Hilarious. For $350k you could spend a good f...   Apr 17 2009, 07:36
- - MichaelW   @carpman One day you'll be old, fat, and in th...   Apr 17 2009, 09:11
|- - carpman   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Apr 17 2009, 08:11) One...   Apr 17 2009, 09:57
- - HotshotGG   QUOTE There is a cottage industry in the audiophil...   Apr 17 2009, 13:58
|- - cpchan   QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Apr 17 2009, 07:58) I ...   Apr 17 2009, 14:38
- - B0RK   First, @2Bdecided ,Thanks you for bringing some mu...   Apr 17 2009, 21:14
|- - rpp3po   A post's length often inversely correlates wit...   Apr 17 2009, 21:53
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 13:14) Some vi...   Apr 17 2009, 23:12
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 12:14) for all...   Apr 17 2009, 23:23
- - pdq   This is very disappointing. Year after year the me...   Apr 17 2009, 21:40
- - Axon   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 17 2009, 10...   Apr 18 2009, 04:22
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 17 2009, 19:22) The dis...   Apr 18 2009, 05:50
- - B0RK   @Ron Jones well ...Now in your post you switched t...   Apr 18 2009, 06:15
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 22:15) So afte...   Apr 18 2009, 17:39
||- - chelgrian   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Apr 18 2009, 16:39...   Apr 18 2009, 17:48
||- - Fandango   QUOTE (chelgrian @ Apr 18 2009, 18:48) So...   Apr 18 2009, 17:50
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 17 2009, 21:15) You...   Apr 18 2009, 20:17
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 01:15) This is...   Apr 19 2009, 06:07
- - botface   Just thought I'd throw in a couple of observat...   Apr 18 2009, 12:35
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (botface @ Apr 18 2009, 12:35) On t...   Apr 18 2009, 16:14
- - ShowsOn   QUOTE (2tec @ Apr 16 2009, 22:55) I'm...   Apr 18 2009, 13:40
|- - Axon   QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Apr 18 2009, 07:40) QUOT...   Apr 18 2009, 17:13
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 18 2009, 12:13) QUOTE (...   Apr 18 2009, 23:42
||- - B0RK   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Apr 18 2009, 10:39) B0RK, y...   Apr 19 2009, 01:41
||- - Frumious B   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 20:41) That we...   Apr 19 2009, 04:05
||- - pdq   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 20:41) To trul...   Apr 19 2009, 04:55
|||- - B0RK   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 18 2009, 21:55) It truly...   Apr 19 2009, 06:22
|||- - krabapple   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 19 2009, 01:22) But We ...   Apr 19 2009, 06:42
|||- - pdq   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 19 2009, 01:22) QUOTE (...   Apr 19 2009, 13:15
||- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 18:41) What...   Apr 19 2009, 06:36
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (B0RK @ Apr 18 2009, 20:41) To trul...   Apr 19 2009, 12:21
||- - Frumious B   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 19 2009, 07...   Apr 19 2009, 14:10
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Apr 18 2009, 14:40) Frem...   Apr 18 2009, 17:43
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (Fandango @ Apr 18 2009, 09:43) Isn...   Apr 18 2009, 19:07
- - Frumious B   What I find ridiculous about this article is the c...   Apr 18 2009, 17:22
- - ShowsOn   QUOTE (Frumious B @ Apr 19 2009, 01:22) W...   Apr 19 2009, 04:58
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