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lossless mp3 - mp3HD, backwards compatible with standard mp3
2Bdecided
post Mar 19 2009, 17:33
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QUOTE
  • mp3HD is a lossless audio codec (100% bit-exact replica of CD tracks)
  • Backward Compatible to mp3
  • File extension .mp3
  • Bitrates for music approximately 500 to 900 kbps rates (similar to other lossless codecs), depending on genre
  • Embedded mp3 track and the mp3HD file share the same id3 metadata
  • Encoding parameters (e.g. bit rate), ancillary data and meta data of embedded mp3 track are under control


Main page:
http://www.all4mp3.com/Learn_mp3_hd_1.aspx

...which links to downloadable test software:
http://www.all4mp3.com/Software3.aspx

I learnt about this from this post...
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1263465#post1263465
...where a quick test suggests it's not as efficient as FLAC, or as fast.

Might be useful for a widely-compatible lossy/lossless hybrid.

I wonder if they've done something clever - when I tried this years ago, mp3 was a terrible base for lossless coding - the lossy>lossless "correction" file was often larger than a straight lossless encode. Maybe this new technology is more tightly integrated into mp3, so performs better?

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Mar 19 2009, 17:36
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guruboolez
post Mar 20 2009, 17:59
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QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 17:21) *
When many customers doesn't even know file extension why would they care if they have a lossless mp3hd?

Having few knowledge about computer things doesn't mean that people don't care about quality and would buy anything. If advertising on "CD-Quality" is now pointless and confusing (because stores were claiming it since the beginning) selling "HD MP3" and advertising on files "four time bigger" (hence better) makes things easy to understand even to the less-technician people on earth.

QUOTE
and that lossless part is just accesible with appropriate decoder, which has to be installed.

It doesn't matter people could really access to the correction stuff or not. Most people (even here) wouldn't notice the difference between a truncated "HD" stream at 256 kbps and the full lossless music. I'm pretty sure placebo effect will ensure people that their HD file are now much better than regular MP3, even if the stream is the same.

QUOTE
and I don't understand why it's mp3hd that gives stores like amazon that opportunity? they could also just use flac...

Yes, and having their hotline full of people unable to make their flac/alac/WMAlossless work on their computer, digital players or even both. Selling a format customers don't understand means losing customers (I saw it myself with some friends of mine trying to deal with WMA and AAC). MP3HD is at the moment the only lossless solution that give a sound (even a nice one at 256 kbps) working on all DAP players, DVD players and software players in the world. Without installing anything. That would make a big difference for several people on earth.
What's the most attractive in your opinion:
"Buy HD MUSIC. Cristal clear sound. Compatible with every player"
or
"Buy lossless music. CD Quality. Download the MP3 codec, the GUI and follow our two page tutorial to make it work"

Note that I'm not personaly fond of this format (crappy IDTag solution) but I'm just trying to show that the concept isn't useless.
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DOS386
post Mar 21 2009, 12:04
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QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 10:34) *
Useless format:
  • The lossless part is stored in ID3v2 tags.
  • Size of ID3v2 tags is limited to 256MB by specifications; as a result, lossless part of an mp3hd file can't be larger than 256MB.
I wonder what those people will think of next. Maybe resurrect VQF or something.


Agree, useless horrible hack.

QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 20 2009, 10:59) *
What's the most attractive in your opinion:
"Buy HD MUSIC. Cristal clear sound. Compatible with every player"
or
"Buy lossless music. CD Quality. Download the MP3 codec, the GUI and follow our two page tutorial to make it work"


None of those. I prefer:
"Buy lossless music. CD Quality. Download audio file, codec is free, open source and well designed"

Also, since FLAC is the weakest of the "useful" lossless codecs and this hack is even weaker and at same time much slower biggrin.gif


This post has been edited by DOS386: Mar 21 2009, 12:17


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guruboolez
post Mar 21 2009, 12:25
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QUOTE (DOS386 @ Mar 21 2009, 12:04) *
None of those. I prefer:
"Buy lossless music. CD Quality. Download audio file, codec is free, open source and well designed"

I also share your choice, but I repeat, installing a piece of software is an annoyance for many people (customers) and they could flee any store requires such operation. Moreover, the codec is sometimes useless. For example, there's no plug-in for people using iTunes and I don't see a vast public learning to transcode their flac to a third-party tool in order to play-it on iTunes and transfert it on iPod. The success of amazon.com and iTunes Music store comes from simplicity (download and play & transfer) – not from freedom or open-source. Unfortunately I would say…

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Mar 21 2009, 12:26
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Posts in this topic
- 2Bdecided   lossless mp3 - mp3HD   Mar 19 2009, 17:33
- - ameyer17   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 19 2009, 09:33) I ...   Mar 19 2009, 21:17
- - saivert   This format must for the love of everything good n...   Mar 19 2009, 21:27
- - LANjackal   If it were really backward compatible, why does it...   Mar 19 2009, 23:23
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (LANjackal @ Mar 19 2009, 23:23) If...   Mar 20 2009, 00:02
|- - Silversight   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 20 2009, 00:02) W...   Mar 20 2009, 00:31
- - guruboolez   @Silversight Good point! It works. I guess tha...   Mar 20 2009, 00:56
- - ameyer17   QUOTE (ameyer17 @ Mar 19 2009, 13:17) If ...   Mar 20 2009, 02:36
- - Destroid   Awhile back I wondered who would be the first to i...   Mar 20 2009, 02:49
- - guruboolez   I investigate a bit further with this encoder. ...   Mar 20 2009, 13:01
- - menno   If you want to know how it works, look at MPEG-4 S...   Mar 20 2009, 15:00
- - guruboolez   Thanks menno. Before someone asks, MP3HD doesn...   Mar 20 2009, 15:54
|- - menno   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 20 2009, 06:54) T...   Mar 20 2009, 16:11
- - guruboolez   Thank you again menno for this clarification I wo...   Mar 20 2009, 16:50
- - callisto   When many customers doesn't even know file ext...   Mar 20 2009, 17:21
- - Peter   Useless format: The lossless part is stored in ID3...   Mar 20 2009, 17:34
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 17:34) Useles...   Mar 20 2009, 17:47
||- - menno   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 08:47) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 18:04
|||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 18:04) Lossy ...   Mar 20 2009, 21:48
|||- - menno   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 12:48) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 22:15
|||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 22:15) Not ju...   Mar 20 2009, 22:24
|||- - menno   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 13:24) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 22:46
||||- - aconverse   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 17:46) QUOTE ...   Mar 22 2009, 18:36
|||- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 16:24) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 22:48
|||- - rpp3po   Well, then a packaged integer only decoder would b...   Mar 21 2009, 00:14
||- - Brent   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 17:47) I wou...   Mar 20 2009, 19:18
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 17:34) [*]Siz...   Mar 20 2009, 18:03
|- - Alex B   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 18:34) Useles...   Mar 20 2009, 19:45
- - guruboolez   QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 17:21) Whe...   Mar 20 2009, 17:59
|- - DOS386   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 10:34) Useles...   Mar 21 2009, 12:04
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (DOS386 @ Mar 21 2009, 12:04) None ...   Mar 21 2009, 12:25
|- - seanyseansean   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 21 2009, 12:25) Q...   Mar 21 2009, 21:16
- - callisto   @guruboolez Ok, I get your point... But still thin...   Mar 20 2009, 18:10
|- - menno   QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 09:10) @gu...   Mar 20 2009, 18:14
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 18:10) And...   Mar 20 2009, 18:20
- - lvqcl   some test files encoded with flac -8: 477 MB, or 9...   Mar 20 2009, 19:34
- - monoton   How do I get an mp3 file that is of exact length a...   Mar 20 2009, 19:43
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (monoton @ Mar 20 2009, 21:43) How ...   Mar 20 2009, 20:16
- - Alex B   I did some gapless playback tests. The -ofl switc...   Mar 20 2009, 20:39
- - m0rbidini   Oh my... The only good thing that comes to mind wh...   Mar 21 2009, 03:43
- - N!Ce   Interesting read. I basically agree with guruboole...   Mar 21 2009, 14:29
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (N!Ce @ Mar 21 2009, 09:29) Int...   Mar 21 2009, 18:59
- - lvqcl   About quality of MP3 part: I encoded the same file...   Mar 21 2009, 22:27
- - kode54   I tried replacing the lossy portion with LAME enco...   Mar 22 2009, 01:56
- - lvqcl   http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st...   Mar 22 2009, 19:48
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Mar 22 2009, 19:48) http:/...   Mar 23 2009, 09:38
|- - menno   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Mar 23 2009, 00:38) Q...   Mar 23 2009, 14:54
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 23 2009, 14:54) It...   Mar 23 2009, 16:02
- - cybertoon   heres a sample for you all HD VBR 1: http://rapids...   Mar 22 2009, 20:18
- - Mike Giacomelli   I think you could do this with mp3 like follows: ...   Mar 22 2009, 20:19
- - odyssey   I don't really know what I should think of thi...   Mar 23 2009, 00:20
- - ameyer17   You would theoretically be able to strip the lossl...   Mar 23 2009, 02:20
- - wnmnkh   As concept this codec has great potential (maybe c...   Mar 26 2009, 02:08
|- - WUXGA   QUOTE (wnmnkh @ Mar 25 2009, 18:08) As co...   Mar 26 2009, 02:50
- - funkyblue   I WAS all excited when I read about it on some web...   Mar 27 2009, 03:28
- - monoton   Well... I don't get it... I extracted a correc...   Mar 29 2009, 22:26
- - funkyblue   Unless they invented a fully lossless MP3 format, ...   Mar 30 2009, 02:47
- - doccolinni   While I agree with everyone who says that this is ...   Jun 14 2009, 06:55
- - lvqcl   QUOTE I wonder if a proper lossless encoder which ...   Jun 14 2009, 08:57
- - doccolinni   QUOTE white noise cannot be compressed at all loss...   Jun 14 2009, 09:10
- - jcoalson   frequency domain prediction has been tried. befor...   Jun 14 2009, 20:00
|- - doccolinni   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Jun 14 2009, 21:00) fre...   Jun 14 2009, 22:06
- - /mnt   This format is just as useless as Pulseaudio.   Jun 14 2009, 20:19
- - servimo   I want to know if exists a plugin for foobar2000 f...   Mar 7 2010, 22:46
- - servimo   Found information about: Will there be suport for ...   Mar 8 2010, 02:53
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (servimo @ Mar 7 2010, 20:53) Found...   Mar 8 2010, 03:44
- - NetRanger   Is this encoder still available somewhere out ther...   Apr 22 2013, 17:58
|- - C.R.Helmrich   The web site of the German IT magazine CHIP has ap...   Apr 22 2013, 23:22
|- - NetRanger   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Apr 23 2013, 00:22)...   Apr 22 2013, 23:59
- - mrmarbach   A label I am friendly with just started selling MP...   Jul 19 2013, 19:46
- - eahm   And... why are people still using or ever used mp3...   Jul 20 2013, 02:18
- - Rotareneg   Because it's "HD".   Jul 20 2013, 06:17


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