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lossless mp3 - mp3HD, backwards compatible with standard mp3
2Bdecided
post Mar 19 2009, 17:33
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ReplayGain developer


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QUOTE
  • mp3HD is a lossless audio codec (100% bit-exact replica of CD tracks)
  • Backward Compatible to mp3
  • File extension .mp3
  • Bitrates for music approximately 500 to 900 kbps rates (similar to other lossless codecs), depending on genre
  • Embedded mp3 track and the mp3HD file share the same id3 metadata
  • Encoding parameters (e.g. bit rate), ancillary data and meta data of embedded mp3 track are under control


Main page:
http://www.all4mp3.com/Learn_mp3_hd_1.aspx

...which links to downloadable test software:
http://www.all4mp3.com/Software3.aspx

I learnt about this from this post...
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1263465#post1263465
...where a quick test suggests it's not as efficient as FLAC, or as fast.

Might be useful for a widely-compatible lossy/lossless hybrid.

I wonder if they've done something clever - when I tried this years ago, mp3 was a terrible base for lossless coding - the lossy>lossless "correction" file was often larger than a straight lossless encode. Maybe this new technology is more tightly integrated into mp3, so performs better?

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Mar 19 2009, 17:36
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Peter
post Mar 20 2009, 17:34
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foobar2000 developer


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Useless format:
  • The lossless part is stored in ID3v2 tags.
  • Size of ID3v2 tags is limited to 256MB by specifications; as a result, lossless part of an mp3hd file can't be larger than 256MB.
I wonder what those people will think of next. Maybe resurrect VQF or something.

Addendum:

Current tagging software isn't prepared to deal with this kind of situation, so you're going to see various disturbing behaviors such as:
  • Very slow tag updates (near-full-file-rewrite with each edit).
  • Heavy memory usage of tag editors.
  • Retagging stripping correction data.
  • Tag editing or even reading failures when approaching the 256MB limit because software will try to put each ID3v2 frame in a single memory block and allocating a single block of such size is likely to fail in 32-bit address space because of fragmentation issues.


This post has been edited by Peter: Mar 21 2009, 16:38
Reason for edit: Expanded and remastered.
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rpp3po
post Mar 20 2009, 17:47
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QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 17:34) *
Useless format


Totally agree. Not having separate correction files is pretty bad, anyway. With mp3hd you can fit just one album on a CDR for your car stereo in the worst case. That's not the point of mp3.

I would propose a generic correction file creator for all lossy formats ("DeltaFlac"? rolleyes.gif). A very simple piece of software or plugin could decode a lossy stream (including gap correction) and generate a delta stream against the original PCM, which would then be FLAC compressed and stored somewhere safe (for the reconversion of a whole collection in 2025 to Super-AAC2-Pro-3000).

A realtime playback filter, e. g., for Foobar could just reverse the chain. Delta and lossy file could be matched by a simple tag for the case that filenames get messed up.

This post has been edited by rpp3po: Mar 20 2009, 17:56
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menno
post Mar 20 2009, 18:04
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 08:47) *
QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 17:34) *
Useless format


Totally agree. Not having separate correction files is pretty bad, anyway. With mp3hd you can fit just one album on a CDR for your car stereo in the worst case. That's not the point of mp3.


While I agree on the uselessness of putting the data in ID3 tags, I disagree about the file size argument. You can remove the correction data by removing 1 frame from the ID3v2 tag, this is much faster than re-encoding your lossless files, and you will just end up with a normal "small" mp3 file. The idea is to have a lossless + lossy file at a smaller datarate than a separate lossless and lossy file, without the need to have to encode your lossless local files for portable usage.

QUOTE
I would propose a generic correction file creator for all lossy formats ("DeltaFlac"? rolleyes.gif). A very simple piece of software or plugin could decode a lossy stream (including gap correction) and generate a delta stream against the original PCM, which would then be FLAC compressed and stored somewhere safe (for the reconversion of a whole collection in 2025 to Super-AAC2-Pro-3000).

A realtime playback filter, e. g., for Foobar could just reverse the chain. Delta and lossy file could be matched by a simple tag for the case that filenames get messed up.


Lossy formats are hardly ever decoded deterministically, so your idea will never work (at least not losslessly). In SLS (so also mp3HD I assume) the original AAC/MP3 stream is not decoded by a normal lossy decoder.
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rpp3po
post Mar 20 2009, 21:48
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QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 18:04) *
Lossy formats are hardly ever decoded deterministically, so your idea will never work (at least not losslessly). In SLS (so also mp3HD I assume) the original AAC/MP3 stream is not decoded by a normal lossy decoder.


Deterministic decoding is irrelevant in this case. You only have to guarantee that the same decoder is used at delta generation time and at reconstruction time. A non-deterministic decoder will still generate the same WAV file every time it is run and that is all what is needed, a CPU is still a deterministic machine executing the same code multiple times.

This post has been edited by rpp3po: Mar 20 2009, 21:54
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menno
post Mar 20 2009, 22:15
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 12:48) *
QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 18:04) *
Lossy formats are hardly ever decoded deterministically, so your idea will never work (at least not losslessly). In SLS (so also mp3HD I assume) the original AAC/MP3 stream is not decoded by a normal lossy decoder.


Deterministic decoding is irrelevant in this case. You only have to guarantee that the same decoder is used at delta generation time and at reconstruction time. A non-deterministic decoder will still generate the same WAV file every time it is run and that is all what is needed, a CPU is still a deterministic machine executing the same code multiple times.


Not just the same decoder, but the exact same build even. That means it will only work on 1 platform, with just 1 specific decoder build, making it much more useless than mp3HD IMO.
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Posts in this topic
- 2Bdecided   lossless mp3 - mp3HD   Mar 19 2009, 17:33
- - ameyer17   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 19 2009, 09:33) I ...   Mar 19 2009, 21:17
- - saivert   This format must for the love of everything good n...   Mar 19 2009, 21:27
- - LANjackal   If it were really backward compatible, why does it...   Mar 19 2009, 23:23
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (LANjackal @ Mar 19 2009, 23:23) If...   Mar 20 2009, 00:02
|- - Silversight   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 20 2009, 00:02) W...   Mar 20 2009, 00:31
- - guruboolez   @Silversight Good point! It works. I guess tha...   Mar 20 2009, 00:56
- - ameyer17   QUOTE (ameyer17 @ Mar 19 2009, 13:17) If ...   Mar 20 2009, 02:36
- - Destroid   Awhile back I wondered who would be the first to i...   Mar 20 2009, 02:49
- - guruboolez   I investigate a bit further with this encoder. ...   Mar 20 2009, 13:01
- - menno   If you want to know how it works, look at MPEG-4 S...   Mar 20 2009, 15:00
- - guruboolez   Thanks menno. Before someone asks, MP3HD doesn...   Mar 20 2009, 15:54
|- - menno   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 20 2009, 06:54) T...   Mar 20 2009, 16:11
- - guruboolez   Thank you again menno for this clarification I wo...   Mar 20 2009, 16:50
- - callisto   When many customers doesn't even know file ext...   Mar 20 2009, 17:21
- - Peter   Useless format: The lossless part is stored in ID3...   Mar 20 2009, 17:34
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 17:34) Useles...   Mar 20 2009, 17:47
||- - menno   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 08:47) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 18:04
|||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 18:04) Lossy ...   Mar 20 2009, 21:48
|||- - menno   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 12:48) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 22:15
|||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 22:15) Not ju...   Mar 20 2009, 22:24
|||- - menno   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 13:24) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 22:46
||||- - aconverse   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 17:46) QUOTE ...   Mar 22 2009, 18:36
|||- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 16:24) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 22:48
|||- - rpp3po   Well, then a packaged integer only decoder would b...   Mar 21 2009, 00:14
||- - Brent   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 17:47) I wou...   Mar 20 2009, 19:18
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 17:34) [*]Siz...   Mar 20 2009, 18:03
|- - Alex B   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 18:34) Useles...   Mar 20 2009, 19:45
- - guruboolez   QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 17:21) Whe...   Mar 20 2009, 17:59
|- - DOS386   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 10:34) Useles...   Mar 21 2009, 12:04
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (DOS386 @ Mar 21 2009, 12:04) None ...   Mar 21 2009, 12:25
|- - seanyseansean   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 21 2009, 12:25) Q...   Mar 21 2009, 21:16
- - callisto   @guruboolez Ok, I get your point... But still thin...   Mar 20 2009, 18:10
|- - menno   QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 09:10) @gu...   Mar 20 2009, 18:14
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 18:10) And...   Mar 20 2009, 18:20
- - lvqcl   some test files encoded with flac -8: 477 MB, or 9...   Mar 20 2009, 19:34
- - monoton   How do I get an mp3 file that is of exact length a...   Mar 20 2009, 19:43
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (monoton @ Mar 20 2009, 21:43) How ...   Mar 20 2009, 20:16
- - Alex B   I did some gapless playback tests. The -ofl switc...   Mar 20 2009, 20:39
- - m0rbidini   Oh my... The only good thing that comes to mind wh...   Mar 21 2009, 03:43
- - N!Ce   Interesting read. I basically agree with guruboole...   Mar 21 2009, 14:29
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (N!Ce @ Mar 21 2009, 09:29) Int...   Mar 21 2009, 18:59
- - lvqcl   About quality of MP3 part: I encoded the same file...   Mar 21 2009, 22:27
- - kode54   I tried replacing the lossy portion with LAME enco...   Mar 22 2009, 01:56
- - lvqcl   http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st...   Mar 22 2009, 19:48
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Mar 22 2009, 19:48) http:/...   Mar 23 2009, 09:38
|- - menno   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Mar 23 2009, 00:38) Q...   Mar 23 2009, 14:54
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 23 2009, 14:54) It...   Mar 23 2009, 16:02
- - cybertoon   heres a sample for you all HD VBR 1: http://rapids...   Mar 22 2009, 20:18
- - Mike Giacomelli   I think you could do this with mp3 like follows: ...   Mar 22 2009, 20:19
- - odyssey   I don't really know what I should think of thi...   Mar 23 2009, 00:20
- - ameyer17   You would theoretically be able to strip the lossl...   Mar 23 2009, 02:20
- - wnmnkh   As concept this codec has great potential (maybe c...   Mar 26 2009, 02:08
|- - WUXGA   QUOTE (wnmnkh @ Mar 25 2009, 18:08) As co...   Mar 26 2009, 02:50
- - funkyblue   I WAS all excited when I read about it on some web...   Mar 27 2009, 03:28
- - monoton   Well... I don't get it... I extracted a correc...   Mar 29 2009, 22:26
- - funkyblue   Unless they invented a fully lossless MP3 format, ...   Mar 30 2009, 02:47
- - doccolinni   While I agree with everyone who says that this is ...   Jun 14 2009, 06:55
- - lvqcl   QUOTE I wonder if a proper lossless encoder which ...   Jun 14 2009, 08:57
- - doccolinni   QUOTE white noise cannot be compressed at all loss...   Jun 14 2009, 09:10
- - jcoalson   frequency domain prediction has been tried. befor...   Jun 14 2009, 20:00
|- - doccolinni   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Jun 14 2009, 21:00) fre...   Jun 14 2009, 22:06
- - /mnt   This format is just as useless as Pulseaudio.   Jun 14 2009, 20:19
- - servimo   I want to know if exists a plugin for foobar2000 f...   Mar 7 2010, 22:46
- - servimo   Found information about: Will there be suport for ...   Mar 8 2010, 02:53
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (servimo @ Mar 7 2010, 20:53) Found...   Mar 8 2010, 03:44
- - NetRanger   Is this encoder still available somewhere out ther...   Apr 22 2013, 17:58
|- - C.R.Helmrich   The web site of the German IT magazine CHIP has ap...   Apr 22 2013, 23:22
|- - NetRanger   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Apr 23 2013, 00:22)...   Apr 22 2013, 23:59
- - mrmarbach   A label I am friendly with just started selling MP...   Jul 19 2013, 19:46
- - eahm   And... why are people still using or ever used mp3...   Jul 20 2013, 02:18
- - Rotareneg   Because it's "HD".   Jul 20 2013, 06:17


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