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lossless mp3 - mp3HD, backwards compatible with standard mp3
2Bdecided
post Mar 19 2009, 17:33
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QUOTE
  • mp3HD is a lossless audio codec (100% bit-exact replica of CD tracks)
  • Backward Compatible to mp3
  • File extension .mp3
  • Bitrates for music approximately 500 to 900 kbps rates (similar to other lossless codecs), depending on genre
  • Embedded mp3 track and the mp3HD file share the same id3 metadata
  • Encoding parameters (e.g. bit rate), ancillary data and meta data of embedded mp3 track are under control


Main page:
http://www.all4mp3.com/Learn_mp3_hd_1.aspx

...which links to downloadable test software:
http://www.all4mp3.com/Software3.aspx

I learnt about this from this post...
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1263465#post1263465
...where a quick test suggests it's not as efficient as FLAC, or as fast.

Might be useful for a widely-compatible lossy/lossless hybrid.

I wonder if they've done something clever - when I tried this years ago, mp3 was a terrible base for lossless coding - the lossy>lossless "correction" file was often larger than a straight lossless encode. Maybe this new technology is more tightly integrated into mp3, so performs better?

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Mar 19 2009, 17:36
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guruboolez
post Mar 20 2009, 13:01
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I investigate a bit further with this encoder.
• First, tag edition is currently ruining the lossless (or correction) datas. That's why foobar2000 doesn't work without forcing another extension (like mp5): it adds tags at the end of the conversion and therefore deletes the all "HD" informations. I created several MP3HD files, and changed tags with fb2k, dbpoweramp and mp3tag: each time files were shrinked by ~80% ohmy.gif
With previous versions of foobar2000, user can disable tag writing after conversion: the encoder is therefore functional even with "mp3" extension.

• Then, I tried to see if MP3HD append an independant lossless file to the MP3 stream or if it really corresponds to a correction stream (like with WavPack and OptimFrog). For that purpose, I encoded the same file with different lossy targets (128 kbps, 320 kbps and also the highest VBR mode). Measuring the size of the "HD" data is easy once you can easily get the "lossy" part (with a simple tag edition as mentioned before). The size of the "HD" data changes according to bitrate. As a conclusion, it seems logical that the HD part is really a correction part, not an independant lossless stream append the a common MP3 file. The higher the lossy bitrate is, the lower the correction part is. In other words, MP3HD would bring some efficiency over a dual library (MP3 + FLAC for example).

My tests were based on two radically different files. The first one is a big hard rock track (several tracks merged) with an important lossless bitrate (>1100 kbps); the second is a long stereo John Cage composition including a lot of silence part and therefore encoded at an amazing 194 kbps bitrate with flac.

Click to enlarge the table:

or direct link : http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9286/mp3hd.png

As a conclusion, I would say that MP3HD brings interesting but not amazing performance for people dealing with an independant MP3library. But to be really interesting it needs a simple software tool able to transfer to any portable player the lossy part of the lossless file. Unfortunately, I wouldn't recommand anyone using this encoder at the moment as your lossless collection could too easily be lost with a basic masstagging operation.

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Mar 20 2009, 13:51
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Posts in this topic
- 2Bdecided   lossless mp3 - mp3HD   Mar 19 2009, 17:33
- - ameyer17   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 19 2009, 09:33) I ...   Mar 19 2009, 21:17
- - saivert   This format must for the love of everything good n...   Mar 19 2009, 21:27
- - LANjackal   If it were really backward compatible, why does it...   Mar 19 2009, 23:23
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (LANjackal @ Mar 19 2009, 23:23) If...   Mar 20 2009, 00:02
|- - Silversight   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 20 2009, 00:02) W...   Mar 20 2009, 00:31
- - guruboolez   @Silversight Good point! It works. I guess tha...   Mar 20 2009, 00:56
- - ameyer17   QUOTE (ameyer17 @ Mar 19 2009, 13:17) If ...   Mar 20 2009, 02:36
- - Destroid   Awhile back I wondered who would be the first to i...   Mar 20 2009, 02:49
- - guruboolez   I investigate a bit further with this encoder. ...   Mar 20 2009, 13:01
- - menno   If you want to know how it works, look at MPEG-4 S...   Mar 20 2009, 15:00
- - guruboolez   Thanks menno. Before someone asks, MP3HD doesn...   Mar 20 2009, 15:54
|- - menno   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 20 2009, 06:54) T...   Mar 20 2009, 16:11
- - guruboolez   Thank you again menno for this clarification I wo...   Mar 20 2009, 16:50
- - callisto   When many customers doesn't even know file ext...   Mar 20 2009, 17:21
- - Peter   Useless format: The lossless part is stored in ID3...   Mar 20 2009, 17:34
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 17:34) Useles...   Mar 20 2009, 17:47
||- - menno   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 08:47) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 18:04
|||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 18:04) Lossy ...   Mar 20 2009, 21:48
|||- - menno   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 12:48) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 22:15
|||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 22:15) Not ju...   Mar 20 2009, 22:24
|||- - menno   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 13:24) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 22:46
||||- - aconverse   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 20 2009, 17:46) QUOTE ...   Mar 22 2009, 18:36
|||- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 16:24) QUOTE...   Mar 20 2009, 22:48
|||- - rpp3po   Well, then a packaged integer only decoder would b...   Mar 21 2009, 00:14
||- - Brent   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 20 2009, 17:47) I wou...   Mar 20 2009, 19:18
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 17:34) [*]Siz...   Mar 20 2009, 18:03
|- - Alex B   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 18:34) Useles...   Mar 20 2009, 19:45
- - guruboolez   QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 17:21) Whe...   Mar 20 2009, 17:59
|- - DOS386   QUOTE (Peter @ Mar 20 2009, 10:34) Useles...   Mar 21 2009, 12:04
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (DOS386 @ Mar 21 2009, 12:04) None ...   Mar 21 2009, 12:25
|- - seanyseansean   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Mar 21 2009, 12:25) Q...   Mar 21 2009, 21:16
- - callisto   @guruboolez Ok, I get your point... But still thin...   Mar 20 2009, 18:10
|- - menno   QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 09:10) @gu...   Mar 20 2009, 18:14
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (callisto @ Mar 20 2009, 18:10) And...   Mar 20 2009, 18:20
- - lvqcl   some test files encoded with flac -8: 477 MB, or 9...   Mar 20 2009, 19:34
- - monoton   How do I get an mp3 file that is of exact length a...   Mar 20 2009, 19:43
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (monoton @ Mar 20 2009, 21:43) How ...   Mar 20 2009, 20:16
- - Alex B   I did some gapless playback tests. The -ofl switc...   Mar 20 2009, 20:39
- - m0rbidini   Oh my... The only good thing that comes to mind wh...   Mar 21 2009, 03:43
- - N!Ce   Interesting read. I basically agree with guruboole...   Mar 21 2009, 14:29
|- - shakey_snake   QUOTE (N!Ce @ Mar 21 2009, 09:29) Int...   Mar 21 2009, 18:59
- - lvqcl   About quality of MP3 part: I encoded the same file...   Mar 21 2009, 22:27
- - kode54   I tried replacing the lossy portion with LAME enco...   Mar 22 2009, 01:56
- - lvqcl   http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st...   Mar 22 2009, 19:48
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Mar 22 2009, 19:48) http:/...   Mar 23 2009, 09:38
|- - menno   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Mar 23 2009, 00:38) Q...   Mar 23 2009, 14:54
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (menno @ Mar 23 2009, 14:54) It...   Mar 23 2009, 16:02
- - cybertoon   heres a sample for you all HD VBR 1: http://rapids...   Mar 22 2009, 20:18
- - Mike Giacomelli   I think you could do this with mp3 like follows: ...   Mar 22 2009, 20:19
- - odyssey   I don't really know what I should think of thi...   Mar 23 2009, 00:20
- - ameyer17   You would theoretically be able to strip the lossl...   Mar 23 2009, 02:20
- - wnmnkh   As concept this codec has great potential (maybe c...   Mar 26 2009, 02:08
|- - WUXGA   QUOTE (wnmnkh @ Mar 25 2009, 18:08) As co...   Mar 26 2009, 02:50
- - funkyblue   I WAS all excited when I read about it on some web...   Mar 27 2009, 03:28
- - monoton   Well... I don't get it... I extracted a correc...   Mar 29 2009, 22:26
- - funkyblue   Unless they invented a fully lossless MP3 format, ...   Mar 30 2009, 02:47
- - doccolinni   While I agree with everyone who says that this is ...   Jun 14 2009, 06:55
- - lvqcl   QUOTE I wonder if a proper lossless encoder which ...   Jun 14 2009, 08:57
- - doccolinni   QUOTE white noise cannot be compressed at all loss...   Jun 14 2009, 09:10
- - jcoalson   frequency domain prediction has been tried. befor...   Jun 14 2009, 20:00
|- - doccolinni   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Jun 14 2009, 21:00) fre...   Jun 14 2009, 22:06
- - /mnt   This format is just as useless as Pulseaudio.   Jun 14 2009, 20:19
- - servimo   I want to know if exists a plugin for foobar2000 f...   Mar 7 2010, 22:46
- - servimo   Found information about: Will there be suport for ...   Mar 8 2010, 02:53
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (servimo @ Mar 7 2010, 20:53) Found...   Mar 8 2010, 03:44
- - NetRanger   Is this encoder still available somewhere out ther...   Apr 22 2013, 17:58
|- - C.R.Helmrich   The web site of the German IT magazine CHIP has ap...   Apr 22 2013, 23:22
|- - NetRanger   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Apr 23 2013, 00:22)...   Apr 22 2013, 23:59
- - mrmarbach   A label I am friendly with just started selling MP...   Jul 19 2013, 19:46
- - eahm   And... why are people still using or ever used mp3...   Jul 20 2013, 02:18
- - Rotareneg   Because it's "HD".   Jul 20 2013, 06:17


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