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Imperfect transcoding FLAC to OGG?, Some 'issues' going from FLAC to OGG
grufflehead
post Mar 2 2009, 19:00
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Sorry to add to the rash of newbies, but I'm sure you'd all like to the chance to put another true believer on the right path nice and early... wink.gif

I have this periodic notion to re-encode large parts of my music collection. Well, everybody has to have a hobby I suppose. Anyway this time I figured the time was long past to archive my collection and decided on the FLAC route - I also have a habit of buying mp3 players when I don't need them, the latest being an iriver Lplayer which can handle FLAC files. Even so, logic would dictate a lossy version would do equally well and make better use of space, so having always used OGG in preference to MP3 I stuck with that.

dbpoweramp has been my ripper of choice in the past for encoding. I suspect my number one mistake may have been using the Music Converter straight from the CD, rather than the dedicated CD Ripper to generate my FLAC files. I can go back and do that again (properly!) if it is likely to have produced less than optimal FLACs - not up enough on the subject to know if this is likely or even possible. I then went from the FLACs straight to OGGs using the same program.

Never having had any problems in the past, I didn't do any checking of the files - speed was of the essence as I was trying to get as many done as quickly as possible as my collection is at home and I'm on the road a lot.

A couple of nights ago I put an album on to play as I drifted off to sleep and thought I heard some 'flaws' in a couple of the tracks - 256kbps OGGs on the Lplayer. Sure enough, on further inspection there were some fairly noticeable glitches in several tracks. The best non-technical description I can give is if you imagine 8 tracks as part of the music (electronic, ambient so it was all synth stuff), 7 of them were fine but the 8th (in this case the bass) track sounded like someone was playing with the input cable as it was recorded, giving periodic blips in the sound.

A straight encode to OGG via either dbpowermap or oggdrop produced the 'worst' result, with noticeable artifacts. Using the SSE, SSE2 and SSE3 options in dbpoweramp all seemed to reduce the problem, but without completely eliminating it. Also, and this is entirely subjective, despite the flaws, all the lossy version seemed to have a much 'brighter' and more dynamic sound than the FLAC. I checked the FLAC files and there appear to be no problems with them.

Just out of idle devilment, last night I encoded the same FLAC tracks as MP3 using various bit rates. To my surprise, no artifacts at all even on the lowest quality setting.

My lazy half says "to hell with ogg then, go with mp3 and don't worry about it", but my other half just has to try and get to the bottom of it...

From that fairly poor summary, is there an obvious 'you need to do X'? Curiosity now forces me to go back and re-encode from CD when I get a chance, and I've tried to set up EAC to do that - it just won't be for a while due to not being able to get to my CDs easily. And when I do re-encode, is FLAC to OGG a no-no and should I just rip once to FLAC and then again to OGG straight from the disc?

Cheers for any tips.

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ameyer17
post Mar 2 2009, 20:33
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First of all, this probably belongs in General Audio or the Ogg Vorbis forum
QUOTE (grufflehead @ Mar 2 2009, 11:00) *
A couple of nights ago I put an album on to play as I drifted off to sleep and thought I heard some 'flaws' in a couple of the tracks - 256kbps OGGs on the Lplayer. Sure enough, on further inspection there were some fairly noticeable glitches in several tracks. The best non-technical description I can give is if you imagine 8 tracks as part of the music (electronic, ambient so it was all synth stuff), 7 of them were fine but the 8th (in this case the bass) track sounded like someone was playing with the input cable as it was recorded, giving periodic blips in the sound.

A straight encode to OGG via either dbpowermap or oggdrop produced the 'worst' result, with noticeable artifacts. Using the SSE, SSE2 and SSE3 options in dbpoweramp all seemed to reduce the problem, but without completely eliminating it. Also, and this is entirely subjective, despite the flaws, all the lossy version seemed to have a much 'brighter' and more dynamic sound than the FLAC. I checked the FLAC files and there appear to be no problems with them.

QUOTE ("TOS#8")
All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims. Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.


Anyway, if there's an actual difference, it's probably due to a suboptimal ogg vorbis implementation on your player.
Any comment by someone who better understands things like this on whether this could be related to Tremor being used in low precision mode like it was on the iAudio 7? http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....r+low+precision

This post has been edited by greynol: Apr 2 2009, 20:42
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Soap
post Mar 2 2009, 21:09
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Were the "problematic" OGG encodes tested on your PC as well as on your DAP, or only on your DAP?
This test could help shed light on if it is a DAP implementation problem or not.

EDIT: I'm assuming the "LPlayer" is a DAP. If not the question remains - testing the LPlayer vs a "known good" decoder.(foobar, for example).

This post has been edited by Soap: Mar 2 2009, 21:13


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kornchild2002
post Mar 2 2009, 21:14
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QUOTE (grufflehead @ Mar 2 2009, 11:00) *
I also have a habit of buying mp3 players when I don't need them, the latest being an iriver Lplayer which can handle FLAC files. Even so, logic would dictate a lossy version would do equally well and make better use of space, so having always used OGG in preference to MP3 I stuck with that.


Not to go off-topic but wow. Finally, someone who has a lossless capable player (whether it be FLAC, ALAC, or WMA lossless) and chose to go the lossy route. I applaud you for doing this as I have seen all sorts of people insist on carrying around their lossless files without conducting proper listening tests and listening to their music in portable environments (ie noisy) using nothing more than the earbuds that came with the player.

Do the FLAC files play correctly on your computer, what about the OGG files? You can also try encoding some FLAC files to OGG using foobar2000 just as a fail safe. Your player is the problem if you continue to run into such problems even after verifying that the files playback fine on your computer.

Oops, I saw that Soap made the same suggestion as I did right before I started my post.
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HotshotGG
post Mar 2 2009, 21:38
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QUOTE
dbpoweramp has been my ripper of choice in the past for encoding. I suspect my number one mistake may have been using the Music Converter straight from the CD, rather than the dedicated CD Ripper to generate my FLAC files. I can go back and do that again (properly!) if it is likely to have produced less than optimal FLACs - not up enough on the subject to know if this is likely or even possible. I then went from the FLACs straight to OGGs using the same program.


Just cut dbpoweramp out of the picture entirely and try some of the other suggested methods. One method would be to rip to FLAC directly and then encode using Oggdrop. My next suggestion to you as was mentioned above would be to transcode your files to Vorbis using the Foobar2000 converter just to be safe. This is how I prefer to do out of convenience. It's much more effcient method and may even save time. There could be something wrong with the encoder, but it's highly unlikely. wink.gif


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Soap
post Mar 2 2009, 22:43
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QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Mar 2 2009, 15:38) *
QUOTE
dbpoweramp has been my ripper of choice in the past for encoding. I suspect my number one mistake may have been using the Music Converter straight from the CD, rather than the dedicated CD Ripper to generate my FLAC files. I can go back and do that again (properly!) if it is likely to have produced less than optimal FLACs - not up enough on the subject to know if this is likely or even possible. I then went from the FLACs straight to OGGs using the same program.


Just cut dbpoweramp out of the picture entirely and try some of the other suggested methods. One method would be to rip to FLAC directly and then encode using Oggdrop. My next suggestion to you as was mentioned above would be to transcode your files to Vorbis using the Foobar2000 converter just to be safe. This is how I prefer to do out of convenience. It's much more effcient method and may even save time. There could be something wrong with the encoder, but it's highly unlikely. wink.gif


Just to be clear - I was suggesting playing the suspected bad encodes with Foobar2000. I didn't see where the possibility of a faulty decoder had been eliminated yet.


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grufflehead
post Mar 3 2009, 11:28
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Thanks folks for some great replies. Apologies if this was the wrong forum (I thought it spanned a couple so stuck a pin in the list of choices!) and for the subjective quality statement - don't have the kit or capability to do a more objective test at the moment so I'll leave that for another time. I can only access this board during breaks at work or, once I'm done for the day, on a ropey mobile broadband connection (and the number if places where there is no signal...) so replies to suggestions will be a bit slow I'm afraid.

To try and answer some of the points, no I haven't tried playing the dodgy OGGs on my laptop. The sound card isn't the greatest and with several DAPs at my disposal it always seemed pointless but I'll give it a go later on.

For those who were unaware of it, the Lplayer I have is a flash player from iriver of Korea - comes n 2/4/8GB flavours, I have the 4GB version. In the limited audio zone in which I have previously operated they have a pretty good rep for sound quality, and were one of the first manufacturers I am aware of to make FLAC and OGG capable players. My first player was an H-140 from them which even back in the day could play OGGs, and most of the files I have on it (40GB HDD player) are in that format, generally encoded at Q5, and I've never encountered any problems like this before. Hence, having been roundly mocked for having something other than an ipod, it was a bit of a kick in the teeth to find that after quite a few hours of work encoding at a 'better quality', the Lplayer was sounding so bad!

I might have been surprised given their track record if there was a poor OGG implementation on the player (I'd need someone who knew more than me to confirm that) but now I see that the iaudio7 also has issues with OGG maybe it's more likely than I thought, especially given iriver's slapdash approach to customer service, upgrades to firmware etc. For example, having bought the player for the FLAC/OGG capability, I was very annoyed to find that despite tagging my files 'correctly' (at least they work on every other player player I've tried them on) the player either point blank refuses to show artist, album, track or art info, or does so apparently at random. I've been through their customer support links, and via the company I bought the player from and not even had the courtesy of an acknowledgement they got my mails.

At least I can take way from this the fact that it was pretty much a straight choice between iaudio7 and LPlayer when I was choosing which one to buy, and the Lplayer was considerably cheaper so I've dodged a larger bullet.

As a slight thread fork, as it is only a matter of time til I want another player, anyone give me a recommendation for an OGG capable player which doesn't have this problem as I'd still prefer to have OGGs than MP3s?

Back to the replies, next job that I can do then is get my hands on a copy of Foobar2000 and do some more encoding/transcoding/testing. I'll try to do it over the next few days and report back. I will also test them on my old H-140 (although it sort of defeats the purpose of having a new player if I have to go back to my old one again).
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Slipstreem
post Mar 3 2009, 11:35
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QUOTE (grufflehead @ Mar 3 2009, 10:28) *
As a slight thread fork, as it is only a matter of time til I want another player, anyone give me a recommendation for an OGG capable player which doesn't have this problem as I'd still prefer to have OGGs than MP3s?

Out of interest, what is your logic behind choosing Vorbis over MP3? If there is none then it's likely to lead to illogical decision making when choosing your next player.

Cheers, Slipstreem. cool.gif
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grufflehead
post Mar 3 2009, 13:58
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QUOTE (Slipstreem @ Mar 3 2009, 10:35) *
Out of interest, what is your logic behind choosing Vorbis over MP3? If there is none then it's likely to lead to illogical decision making when choosing your next player.


Heh, it probably started out as just being different from the mass of ipod drones out there wink.gif Obviously people here are way beyond my level of technical understanding, but I'd wager if you stopped 10 people in the street and asked them what an OGG was you'd be lucky to find one who knew the answer. When I first got interested in digital music, it seemed the first serious contender to MP3 (other than WMA which I avoided as I've never been a WMPlayer user) so it was as much about trying something different, although people seem(ed) to reckon Vorbis was a good codec anyway so I've stuck with it. Frankly, if I'm looking down the wrong end of another serious overhaul I want it to be the last time, and I certainly have no problems if that has to be as MP3s.
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HotshotGG
post Mar 3 2009, 14:30
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QUOTE
I might have been surprised given their track record if there was a poor OGG implementation on the player (I'd need someone who knew more than me to confirm that) but now I see that the iaudio7 also has issues with OGG maybe it's more likely than I thought, especially given iriver's slapdash approach to customer service, upgrades to firmware etc. For example, having bought the player for the FLAC/OGG capability, I was very annoyed to find that despite tagging my files 'correctly' (at least they work on every other player player I've tried them on) the player either point blank refuses to show artist, album, track or art info, or does so apparently at random. I've been through their customer support links, and via the company I bought the player from and not even had the courtesy of an acknowledgement they got my mails.


If that's the case then it's more then likely a subpar implementation of Tremor in this particular iRiver player. I don't know that for sure, but I am just speculating based upon some of the other issues you are having with this player that this is more then likely the case.

QUOTE
Back to the replies, next job that I can do then is get my hands on a copy of Foobar2000 and do some more encoding/transcoding/testing. I'll try to do it over the next few days and report back. I will also test them on my old H-140 (although it sort of defeats the purpose of having a new player if I have to go back to my old one again).


This well let us know if it's a encoder or decoder related issue that can then be addressed. Let us know when you are finished testing.


QUOTE
Heh, it probably started out as just being different from the mass of ipod drones out there wink.gif Obviously people here are way beyond my level of technical understanding, but I'd wager if you stopped 10 people in the street and asked them what an OGG was you'd be lucky to find one who knew the answer... people seem(ed) to reckon Vorbis was a good codec anyway so I've stuck with it. Frankly, if I'm looking down the wrong end of another serious overhaul I want it to be the last time, and I certainly have no problems if that has to be as MP3s.


Which is kind of a sad thing considering Mozilla just invested $100,000 dollars into continued open source development for the project and for Xiph. It is a good codec and one that is worth using albeit with the proper ABX tests first to determine the right quality level. I use it in conjunction with FLAC for HD storage though a -q 8 to be exact. I personally don't have a portable, but if I did I would probably want one that supported Vorbis as well. iRiver has a few other models that have FLAC and Vorbis support including their new "Spinn". If you take them off the table then your second best bet for out of the box support would be Cowon. They make some solid players as well they get a lot of praise around here.

This post has been edited by HotshotGG: Mar 3 2009, 14:37


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grufflehead
post Mar 3 2009, 15:05
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QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Mar 3 2009, 13:30) *
If that's the case then it's more then likely a subpar implementation of Tremor in this particular iRiver player. I don't know that for sure, but I am just speculating based upon some of the other issues you are having with this player that this is more then likely the case.


QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Mar 3 2009, 13:30) *
iRiver has a few other models that have FLAC and Vorbis support including their new "Spinn". If you take them off the table then your second best bet for out of the box support would be Cowon. They make some solid players as well they get a lot of praise around here.


Having been a self-confessed iRiver fanboy for years, but having also been impressed by some of the buzz around Cowon, these 2 would have been my main contenders, but given the problems I'm now having, and what was said in another thread about the iaudio7 (which was the one I nearly bought) now I am having serious doubts. If the Lplayer is **** because of this Tremor issue is it likely to be the same with the Spinn and other iRiver players? Anywhere I can find out which ones are likely to be affected?


QUOTE
Which is kind of a sad thing considering Mozilla just invested $100,000 dollars into continued open source development for the project and for Xiph.


Couldn't agree more, and I was very pleased when I saw that news. I'd much rather support this format, but only if I can get a player that will work and sound good. I notice some of the Sansa players are now FLAC and OGG capable, and unlike iRiver they seem to have a) an active forum of users which is also frequented by some of their staff and b) a commitment to working on improving firmware for their existing players, rather than (the way it seems to me) iRiver's view that if you want more features or bug fixes, shell out for another DAP.
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HotshotGG
post Mar 3 2009, 22:29
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QUOTE
If the Lplayer is **** because of this Tremor issue is it likely to be the same with the Spinn and other iRiver players? Anywhere I can find out which ones are likely to be affected?


Tremor is a fixed-point integerized audio decoder which is one of the reasons we have Vorbis being supported in some DAP to begin with. I don't know anything about embedded systems so I am not qualified to say how it works exactly, but the decoder will sometimes introduce audible artifacts and noise if the original engineers who implemented the decoder decided to use low-precision mode. It's been discussed here on this forum before and elsewhere on Xiph mailing lists as being the potential problem. If they use a higher-precion mode in the decoder the problem goes away. iAudio 7 has been mentioned before as having this problem (It should be noted that not every player has this problem). We don't know for certain though if this is the actual problem you are having or it's related to the actual encoder. It's difficult to say.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....f=9&t=33834

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grufflehead
post Mar 4 2009, 11:57
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Well, an object lesson for me in finding people who know what they are talking about rather than jumping to conclusions...

Prepared for a serious session of testing last night, I believe the answer to my problem was found in about 2 minutes, and several of you had already suggested it. Installed Foobar2k on my laptop, loaded one of the files that my Lplayer is messing up and hit play. Result? A 'perfect' sound, with not an artifact or glitch to be heard. Loaded the same file onto my old H140. Result? Also artifact free. In fact, just for the hell of it I put the file on my other iRiver - an extremely basic flash player called the T30 - and even it plays it flawlessly.

Why, oh, why would a company who has produced great pieces of technology in the past suddenly decide to produce this PoS that can't even fulfil the basic requirements of playing a *supported* format correctly? OK, it's a portable player, but is the 50KB saving that I read the low_accuracy Tremor implementation of OGG gets really worth it on something with a 4GB capacity? Definitely a case of the Emperor's new clothes with 'ooh look at it's innovative interface, look at the video capability blah blah' - how about actually playing the damn music I bought it for?

Can't quite express my annoyance at this rationally, and I'm seriously considering asking the company I bought it from for my money back on the basis that it isn't fit for purpose. Never another iRiver shall I buy after this. Still, at least it looks like I didn't mess up encoding my files so that's a job I don't have to go back and do again...

So, given I can quite happily continue to stick with OGGs instead of going back to MP3, what IS my next player going to be now?



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Soap
post Mar 4 2009, 13:35
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QUOTE (grufflehead @ Mar 4 2009, 05:57) *
but is the 50KB saving that I read the low_accuracy Tremor implementation of OGG gets really worth it on something with a 4GB capacity?

I don't disagree with your overall point one bit, but those two numbers are apples and oranges.

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HotshotGG
post Mar 4 2009, 14:29
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QUOTE
Why, oh, why would a company who has produced great pieces of technology in the past suddenly decide to produce this PoS that can't even fulfil the basic requirements of playing a *supported* format correctly? OK, it's a portable player, but is the 50KB saving that I read the low_accuracy Tremor implementation of OGG gets really worth it on something with a 4GB capacity? Definitely a case of the Emperor's new clothes with 'ooh look at it's innovative interface, look at the video capability blah blah' - how about actually playing the damn music I bought it for?


I guess the rational is design constraints if you are an engineer. Depending upon what specific architecture you are using you are going to want a a decoder that's fast enough and has low enough power consumption with architecture you decided to use for your player, whether it would be an ARM7 core or a Coldfire etc. The IRiver H10 and some models of the IPod happen to use the earlier one. I guess that's what it comes down to.


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grufflehead
post Mar 4 2009, 17:11
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This may sound like a daft question but where would one find out this sort of info when looking at players? I'm very much a novice here and to audio tech in general but I very much doubt many (if any) vendors would have the first clue if you asked them this. I don't want to make a potentially expensive investment again and find out too late that it's as *useful* as the Lplayer has turned out to be...
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kornchild2002
post Mar 4 2009, 17:56
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There are plenty of websites that offer subjective reviews when it comes to portable audio players. anythingbutipod and Cnet come to mind. The reason why I say they are subjective is because I have yet to see a review that ran hardware tests (comparing all players) and weren't biased against Apple's iPod line. Anyway, they normally test the players for audio and video playback. That way the manufacturer's claims are checked. I can understand your frustration as OGG playback on your player isn't what you wanted.

Have you tried using a lower bitrate OGG setting? 3G iPods had this one issue with VBR Lame mp3 files in that the player would introduce a slight audible pause whenever the bitrate jumped in the song. I found that -V 3 (--preset-medium back then) files were fine, my 3G iPod had issues with higher bitrate mp3 files. The issue was resolved with newer iPods. Additionally, have you tried updating the firmware of your Lplayer? I would also suggest that you conduct your own blind ABX tests before deciding that OGG is the way to go. I see that you are using a 256kbps setting. I think the general consensus is that modern encoders/formats pretty much all sound alike at such a high bitrate. From my experience, the benefits of OGG (just like AAC) are heard at much smaller bitrates. Just a thought.

As for your next player, I did some digging around. Both the SanDisk Sansa Fuze and Sansa Clip come highly recommended. I don't know how their OGG support is but SanDisk recently updated the firmware of both players to add OGG playback. The Cowon iAudio D2 also comes recommended. I pulled these three players by looking at the reviews from both Cnet and anythingbutipod. I didn't see anything in the reviews mention anything about flawed OGG playback for these players.

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grufflehead
post Mar 4 2009, 18:18
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Thanks for that. I have come across anythingbutipod.com before and looked at some of the reviews. I have to hold my hand up to a certain anti-ipod feeling as well, which was based on lots of things other than sound quality. From what I can gather their sound is as good as most other players now so I can't hold that against them - still wouldn't buy one though!

I admit my OGG encoding rate is quite high so I'll maybe play about with lower settings (TBH I was fairly happy with Q5 in the past so it was the compulsion to fiddle that has landed me where I am now).

I guess what surprised me most about all of this is that before I came here I never saw a single complaint about this issue - the store I bought from had forums and all the reviews were glowing, and misticriver.net (which was my original goto place for advice and info) seems to have become very quiet and any questions I've asked in the past which I thought would be much less technical and simpler to answer got the tumbleweed treatment. It does lead me to wonder just how many people are using OGG as a format; back to a comment I made earlier in the thread but I can't think I've ever met someone who, in a casual conversation about digital music, has used it and most have never even heard of it.

I'll certainly check out the Sandisk line as they do seem to be working on their firmware on an ongoing basis (I have the latest for my Lplayer, iRiver seem to just abandon players to their fate after a couple of updates).

Cheers to everyone for taking the time to make helpful comments and suggestions.
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Slipstreem
post Mar 4 2009, 20:13
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QUOTE (grufflehead @ Mar 4 2009, 17:18) *
It does lead me to wonder just how many people are using OGG as a format; back to a comment I made earlier in the thread but I can't think I've ever met someone who, in a casual conversation about digital music, has used it and most have never even heard of it.

That may be because OGG is not an audio format. OGG is the name of the container and, as I hinted earlier, Vorbis is the name of the encoder/encodings. Sorry to be a pedant, but if I don't say it someone else will. wink.gif

Cheers, Slipstreem. cool.gif

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HotshotGG
post Mar 5 2009, 14:31
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QUOTE
Have you tried using a lower bitrate OGG setting? 3G iPods had this one issue with VBR Lame mp3 files in that the player would introduce a slight audible pause whenever the bitrate jumped in the song. I found that -V 3 (--preset-medium back then) files were fine, my 3G iPod had issues with higher bitrate mp3 files. The issue was resolved with newer iPods. Additionally, have you tried updating the firmware of your Lplayer? I would also suggest that you conduct your own blind ABX tests before deciding that OGG is the way to go. I see that you are using a 256kbps setting. I think the general consensus is that modern encoders/formats pretty much all sound alike at such a high bitrate. From my experience, the benefits of OGG (just like AAC) are heard at much smaller bitrates. Just a thought.


I thought he said he was using a -q 5? That's approximitely ~160 kbps. That's considered "transparent" to most with Vorbis although some people prefer a higher quality setting after they go back and do ABX testing. I personally use a -q 8 which is over kill in some regards, but that's just my personal tastes.

QUOTE
Thanks for that. I have come across anythingbutipod.com before and looked at some of the reviews. I have to hold my hand up to a certain anti-ipod feeling as well, which was based on lots of things other than sound quality.


Again we won't get into this topic as it's brought up 100 times a day around here, but the iPod's sound quality is not as subpar as everybody would like you to believe according to RMAA tests. I have reached the general conclusion people just don't like the iPod, because it's the IPod which is reason enough laugh.gif.

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I guess what surprised me most about all of this is that before I came here I never saw a single complaint about this issue - the store I bought from had forums and all the reviews were glowing, and misticriver.net (which was my original goto place for advice and info) seems to have become very quiet and any questions I've asked in the past which I thought would be much less technical and simpler to answer got the tumbleweed treatment. It does lead me to wonder just how many people are using OGG as a format; back to a comment I made earlier in the thread but I can't think I've ever met someone who, in a casual conversation about digital music, has used it and most have never even heard of it.


I think it will garner more support, once it get's adopted as part of the HTML 5 standard and is incorporated into Mozilla along with Theora. We will have to see as only time will tell. It has a fan base right now, despite the fact that it's rather small and there is no universal hardware decoder that supports it "out of the box". We will see what happens.


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ameyer17
post Mar 5 2009, 17:49
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QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Mar 5 2009, 06:31) *
I think it will garner more support, once it get's adopted as part of the HTML 5 standard and is incorporated into Mozilla along with Theora. We will have to see as only time will tell. It has a fan base right now, despite the fact that it's rather small and there is no universal hardware decoder that supports it "out of the box". We will see what happens.

Even if/when it gets adopted into the HTML standard, I'm not sure how much support it'll get.
Maybe if Youtube and other similar websites leverage it. I'm not holding my breath, though.

This post has been edited by greynol: Apr 2 2009, 20:44
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HotshotGG
post Mar 6 2009, 14:57
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Even if/when it gets adopted into the HTML standard, I'm not sure how much support it'll get.
Maybe if Youtube and other similar websites leverage it. I'm not holding my breath, though.


Well Youtube has crappy video quality to begin with, because they use FLV plugin. Theora is somewhere in the middle right now, but still requires some work to be done to be on par with H.264. Thusnelda is coming along pretty nicely though. I am not just referring to Youtube either. I am talking about a lot of other popular Web 2.0 sites also, which may consider adopting it.


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ameyer17
post Mar 6 2009, 19:54
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QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Mar 6 2009, 06:57) *
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Even if/when it gets adopted into the HTML standard, I'm not sure how much support it'll get.
Maybe if Youtube and other similar websites leverage it. I'm not holding my breath, though.


Well Youtube has crappy video quality to begin with, because they use FLV plugin. Theora is somewhere in the middle right now, but still requires some work to be done to be on par with H.264. Thusnelda is coming along pretty nicely though. I am not just referring to Youtube either. I am talking about a lot of other popular Web 2.0 sites also, which may consider adopting it.

I'm just pessimistic about its adoption.
Especially since there's apparently no actual standard about what codecs and/or container formats should go inside the <video> tag

And Youtube's started using h.264 for some things.

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HotshotGG
post Mar 7 2009, 17:17
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I'm just pessimistic about its adoption.
Especially since there's apparently no actual standard about what codecs and/or container formats should go inside the <video> tag

And Youtube's started using h.264 for some things.


It's a Philosophical war is what it is. I think both H.264/AAC and Theora/Vorbis should both be natively supported in the HTML 5 standard. Mozilla and the open source software movement say that only open standards should be supported (Which makes a lot of sense considering the W3C model). Nokia and Apple claim that open source codecs are not part of any standard and argue that H.264/AAC should be used instead (which makes sense too).

This post has been edited by HotshotGG: Mar 7 2009, 17:24


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post Dec 10 2009, 18:18
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QUOTE (grufflehead @ Mar 4 2009, 05:57) *
So, given I can quite happily continue to stick with OGGs instead of going back to MP3, what IS my next player going to be now?


You mentioned that you still have your 'old' iRiver h140. I have one too, and run Rockbox on it (for over 3 years now), and love it. The only thing I don't like about it is the fact that I won't be able to replace it when it finally kicks the bucket. My question for you is, if you want flawless Ogg playback (as do I), why not use your h140 with Rockbox on it? (i know its native firmware supports Ogg too, but it's horrible HORRIBLE compared to Rockbox). And if you really don't want to drag around such a brick, please consider selling it to someone. like me.

Also, more to the point of your "next player" question, i most strongly recommend that you at least consider going with some player currently supported by Rockbox. I think the best (other than the iRiver 140) may be the 80GB ipod video 5.5gen (which are still available on eBay, i think). I know you don't want an iPod (and same here), but I simply love the idea of carrying around an ipod which is actually running an open source alternative firmware and playing Ogg and FLAC files smile.gif

About transcoding from FLAC to Ogg: I'm going to mirror what someone else here has said (and try to simplify somewhat): use EAC straight to FLAC, and transcode the FLACs to Vorbis using OggDrop (AFAIK it uses a pure version of the vorbis commandline encoder, which can convert straight from FLAC also). Problem solved.
I don't bother (yet) ripping FLAC copies of everything, but if I did my vorbis copies would probably be lower bitrate for more compact DAP storage (since you can always reencode from the FLAC in the future); for the moment everything I rip is straight to Ogg q6, except stuff which can't be easily replaced, which stays in FLAC.
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