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Biwiring and Cables, A couple of questions on how to
atici
post Feb 28 2003, 22:17
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I want to buy decent cables for my speakers and was wondering on how the setup should be.

The speakers in question (Infinity Alpha 40) is biwirable. My amp has two pairs of speaker outputs. In this case which one is a better idea: to use biwiring cables or use separate wires using both of the speaker outputs on my amp? If I use separate identical cables, does the length make difference?

And about the cable diameter, are the thick ones necessarily better? If so how much? I am planning to spend around $80 for my cabling. 7 feet cable for each channel is sufficient. Do you have any suggestions on quality but cheap cables? What do you think about the ones here?

Please let me know what you think. Your help is much appreciated.


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Guest_Dex4now_*
post Mar 12 2003, 23:27
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 12 2003 - 06:59 AM)
QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 10 2003 - 01:41 AM)
Hi Atici, you have to be careful about articles like the one in the above link.  Its very similiar to sites like www.pcabx.com that use test equipment instead of ears to measure audio equipment.

HA regulars, as soon as you read this, you should have known better than to reply!

Here, we are objectivists. We are now arguing with a subjectivist (who has probably strayed out of rec.audio.opinion). You might as well try to get an athiest and an evangelical to agree with each other!*

. . . So they try to find a different way to sell their audio products.

My answer is: use your ears. . . After buying your dream system, forget the hi-fi and enjoy the music.

No, I did not wander out of rec.whatever..., I do not sell audio equipment, (though I worked as a technician in an audio store, along with a short stint in a recording studio and some years as a "roadie"), but most important of all, I don't want to "argue" about this. I do think its a very interesting topic however, and I will be the first to stand up and wave the flag of "enlightenment" if its ever truly proven that there isn't now, and could never be an audible difference in an audio system, with different speaker wire.

My comments about pcabx.com come from my personal experience with site, which I have only used to read about the sound card comparison. I did peruse some of the other pages, but not all. As near as I can tell, all sound card evaluations are based on how they "measured-up" using SpectraLAB softare. I've never seen anywhere where Arny Krueger mentions listening to the sound cards and with what equipment. Arny Krueger is notorious for the classic evaluating of speaker cable based on its DC resistance, which, of course, has nothing to do with how it might sound in a given system. I don't mean to sound like I'm knocking Mr. Krueger here, but he is, as you point out, objective, and while that may be good for understanding electrical specs, it is not necessarily good for "listening to music" tests.

QUOTE (KikeG @ Mar 12 2003 - 03:48 AM)
Still, I remain skeptic, there are many factors that could have an influence in your tests: with "exotic" amps (Naim for example) those high capacitance cables can make an audible difference (for worse, in theory). Maybe if capacitance is high enough, it can have an audible effect even on properly designed amps, but always for worse (post-ringing due to amp unstability).
With very hard to drive speakers or very long cables, there might be an audible difference due to the reduced inductance. At last, all possible differences should be possible to measure.


And this is what makes this discussion all the more frustrating sometimes. KikeG is specifically mentioning the type of things that may cause one speaker wire to sound different than another. The "listener" will then decide which is "better", not some piece of test equipment, obviously except in gross mismatch cases.

QUOTE (KikeG @ Mar 12 2003 - 07:24 AM)
... Electrical measurement equipment surpassed ear capabilities many years ago.


This is so wrong that once again, I have to believe we're talking apples and oranges here. Sure, test equipment can measure THD better than my ears can, but they can never convey which sounds better. Evaluating technical specifications is surely objective, determining what sounds good is purely subjective, but I do agree that many manufacturers and retail stores try to correlate one to the other falsely.

2Bdecided said: "After buying your dream system, forget the hi-fi and enjoy the music."

I think we're so close to being on the same page here, but somehow getting there through vastly different paths. biggrin.gif

Dex
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Posts in this topic
- atici   Biwiring and Cables   Feb 28 2003, 22:17
- - Amadablam   http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm I can...   Feb 28 2003, 22:29
- - Dex4now   Hi Atici, you have to be careful about articles li...   Mar 10 2003, 02:41
- - gdougherty   "Audiophile grade" copper cable is bunk....   Mar 10 2003, 04:28
- - atici   Is thicker cable necessarily better? I got a 10 ga...   Mar 10 2003, 05:30
- - boojum   Doesn't Ohm's Law cover all of this? Buy ...   Mar 10 2003, 05:40
- - KikeG   Even biwiring is vodoo audio. From an electrical p...   Mar 10 2003, 09:04
- - Dex4now   QUOTE (gdougherty @ Mar 9 2003 - 07:28 PM)I p...   Mar 10 2003, 10:13
- - KikeG   QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 10 2003 - 10:13 AM)And, ...   Mar 10 2003, 10:26
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 10 2003 - 02:13 AM)And, ...   Mar 10 2003, 11:21
- - LoKi128   I believe that there are some things in the audio ...   Mar 10 2003, 16:12
- - Bedeox   QUOTE (LoKi128 @ Mar 10 2003 - 07:12 AM)I bel...   Mar 10 2003, 17:28
- - LoKi128   ABX is a statistical method... it is a scientific ...   Mar 10 2003, 20:03
- - atici   QUOTE (LoKi128 @ Mar 10 2003 - 10:12 AM)Bi-wi...   Mar 10 2003, 20:20
- - Bedeox   But this difference is not hearable and is hardly ...   Mar 10 2003, 20:47
- - DigitalMan   QUOTE (atici @ Mar 10 2003 - 11:20 AM)AFAIK I...   Mar 10 2003, 21:38
- - Dex4now   Well, unfortunately, much of the criticism of my c...   Mar 11 2003, 00:37
- - lucpes   CODE1) single wire: preamp->amp-...   Mar 11 2003, 00:59
- - Dex4now   Hi lucpes, just so you know, Bi-amping and bi-wiri...   Mar 11 2003, 01:15
- - Annuka   Responding to original question: It has been my e...   Mar 11 2003, 01:36
- - Annuka   I'd like to add a comment: Audio is a physic...   Mar 11 2003, 01:53
- - DigitalMan   QUOTE (Annuka @ Mar 10 2003 - 04:36 PM)Connec...   Mar 11 2003, 01:57
- - lucpes   QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 11 2003 - 12:15 AM)...po...   Mar 11 2003, 04:15
- - lucpes   QUOTE (atici @ Mar 10 2003 - 07:20 PM)Biwirin...   Mar 11 2003, 04:18
- - KikeG   Oh man... biwiring is *useless*, has no sense from...   Mar 11 2003, 09:09
- - gdougherty   QUOTE (Annuka @ Mar 10 2003 - 06:36 PM)Respon...   Mar 11 2003, 09:31
- - KikeG   gdougherty, I agree on nearly everything: About i...   Mar 11 2003, 10:03
- - Pio2001   When a single 4 mm2 cable is used and a 1000 Hz si...   Mar 12 2003, 01:35
- - KikeG   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Mar 12 2003 - 01:35 AM)Thus,...   Mar 12 2003, 09:01
- - Annuka   I studied electronics for a short while many years...   Mar 12 2003, 12:06
- - KikeG   QUOTE (Annuka @ Mar 12 2003 - 12:06 PM)But wh...   Mar 12 2003, 12:48
- - Annuka   QUOTE (KikeG @ Mar 12 2003 - 01:48 PM)Sorry, ...   Mar 12 2003, 14:44
- - KikeG   Well, when I call somebody an expert (which I don...   Mar 12 2003, 15:22
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (atici @ Feb 28 2003 - 09:17 PM)I want ...   Mar 12 2003, 15:37
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 10 2003 - 01:41 AM)Hi At...   Mar 12 2003, 15:59
- - KikeG   Yep... I'm more of an objectivist, but I try n...   Mar 12 2003, 16:09
- - KikeG   By the way, I'm 100% of the opinion of that an...   Mar 12 2003, 16:24
- - DonP   QUOTE (DigitalMan @ Mar 10 2003 - 07:57 PM)[...   Mar 12 2003, 16:32
- - KikeG   But silver has a pay-off. It weights more than cop...   Mar 12 2003, 16:37
- - atici   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 12 2003 - 09:37 AM)The...   Mar 12 2003, 21:53
- - Dex4now   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 12 2003 - 06:59 AM)QUO...   Mar 12 2003, 23:27
- - KikeG   QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 12 2003 - 11:27 PM)I...   Mar 13 2003, 10:07
- - KikeG   Addition to my previous post: Note, I always talk...   Mar 13 2003, 10:15
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KikeG @ Mar 12 2003 - 03:24 PM)By the ...   Mar 13 2003, 11:52
- - 2Bdecided   Sorry Dex - I didn't mean to offend, and I kno...   Mar 13 2003, 12:35
- - KikeG   @2Bdecided: QUOTE BUT it's not always trivial...   Mar 13 2003, 12:36
- - Daneel   QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 9 2003 - 05:41 PM)....Th...   Mar 13 2003, 13:43
- - Pio2001   I did the same calculus, though using the complete...   Mar 13 2003, 20:48
- - Dex4now   2Bdecided: As I look back at my post, the bold em...   Mar 13 2003, 23:47
- - KikeG   QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 13 2003 - 11:47 PM)The d...   Mar 14 2003, 09:03
- - gdougherty   QUOTE (Annuka @ Mar 12 2003 - 05:06 AM)Here i...   Mar 14 2003, 11:39
- - SometimesWarrior   QUOTE (gdougherty @ Mar 11 2003 - 12:31 AM)As...   Mar 14 2003, 12:03
- - gdougherty   QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 13 2003 - 04:47 PM)One o...   Mar 14 2003, 12:07
- - gdougherty   QUOTE (SometimesWarrior @ Mar 14 2003 - 05:03...   Mar 14 2003, 12:14
- - Pio2001   QUOTE (Dex4now @ Mar 14 2003 - 01:47 AM)whate...   Mar 15 2003, 00:01
- - Dex4now   QUOTE (KikeG @ Mar 14 2003 - 12:03 AM)QUOTE (...   Mar 15 2003, 02:48
- - Bedeox   QUOTE (gdougherty @ Mar 14 2003 - 03:07 AM)Ou...   Mar 15 2003, 17:16
- - Dex4now   C'mon Bedeox, you couldn't have meant that...   Mar 16 2003, 00:26
- - Pio2001   In HA, MP3 vs original, with measurable time smear...   Mar 16 2003, 00:32
- - LoKi128   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Mar 15 2003 - 06:32 PM)And i...   Mar 16 2003, 00:57


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