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Does EAC add aguments to --alt-preset standard
dgover2
post Feb 19 2003, 11:24
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If I have EAC set up to use "Lame MP3 Encoder" with the commandline --alt-preset standard, does it add any other commandline arguments? I have a small suspicion that it does and id like to hear otherwise wink.gif

Cheers,
-dave
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tigre
post Feb 19 2003, 11:38
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It does. Better use lame.exe as user defined encoder and --alt-preset standard %s %d.


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Patsoe
post Feb 19 2003, 14:01
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I second that smile.gif

I often see that people use APS, but the files have a lowest bitrate of 192. Cause of that: having 192 in the bitrate settings of EAC, which adds that to your settings string.

If you use the line Tigre suggests, APS will allow 128kbps as lowest bitrate, as it should be.
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STSinNYC
post Feb 20 2003, 01:32
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I'm curious about this. When I encode WAVs using LAME 3.90.2 using both Razor Lame and EAC, same command line, --alt-preset fast extreme, I get identical size output files. Would that not indicate that EAC is not changing any of the command line?
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tigre
post Feb 20 2003, 08:38
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Try this: Set (in EAC) "parameter passing scheme" to "Lame mp3 Encoder", "Additional command line options" to "--alt-preset standard" and change "Bit rate" values and see what happens.


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Let's suppose that rain washes out a picnic. Who is feeling negative? The rain? Or YOU? What's causing the negative feeling? The rain or your reaction? - Anthony De Mello
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rohangc
post Feb 20 2003, 09:47
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QUOTE (Patsoe @ Feb 19 2003 - 06:31 PM)
I second that smile.gif

I often see that people use APS, but the files have a lowest bitrate of 192. Cause of that: having 192 in the bitrate settings of EAC, which adds that to your settings string.

If you use the line Tigre suggests, APS will allow 128kbps as lowest bitrate, as it should be.

huh.gif Assuming that this is indeed true, will this result in better MP3s or worse MP3s? I have always used the "Parameter passing scheme" as "Lame mp3 Encoder" and I thought "--alt-preset standard" over-rode all other parameters. I don't want to end up with bad MP3s all over again, which I am afraid I have. sad.gif Thanks.
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Patsoe
post Feb 20 2003, 10:23
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QUOTE (rohangc @ Feb 20 2003 - 09:47 AM)
QUOTE (Patsoe @ Feb 19 2003 - 06:31 PM)
I second that smile.gif

I often see that people use APS, but the files have a lowest bitrate of 192. Cause of that: having 192 in the bitrate settings of EAC, which adds that to your settings string.

If you use the line Tigre suggests, APS will allow 128kbps as lowest bitrate, as it should be.

huh.gif Assuming that this is indeed true, will this result in better MP3s or worse MP3s? I have always used the "Parameter passing scheme" as "Lame mp3 Encoder" and I thought "--alt-preset standard" over-rode all other parameters. I don't want to end up with bad MP3s all over again, which I am afraid I have. sad.gif Thanks.

Your MP3s won't get worse in quality. They may be larger in file size than necessary, that's all.
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Patsoe
post Feb 20 2003, 10:27
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QUOTE (STSinNYC @ Feb 20 2003 - 01:32 AM)
I'm curious about this. When I encode WAVs using LAME 3.90.2 using both Razor Lame and EAC, same command line, --alt-preset fast extreme,  I get identical size output files. Would that not indicate that EAC is not changing any of the command line?

Dgover was talking about APS. You are using APX. APX uses a higher minimum bitrate than APS, so leaving the bitrate setting in EAC at 192 won't have impact then.
If you want to check it with APX, try 320kbps in the EAC settings.
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dgover2
post Feb 20 2003, 11:21
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QUOTE (Patsoe @ Feb 20 2003 - 01:27 AM)
QUOTE (STSinNYC @ Feb 20 2003 - 01:32 AM)
I'm curious about this. When I encode WAVs using LAME 3.90.2 using both Razor Lame and EAC, same command line, --alt-preset fast extreme,  I get identical size output files. Would that not indicate that EAC is not changing any of the command line?

Dgover was talking about APS. You are using APX. APX uses a higher minimum bitrate than APS, so leaving the bitrate setting in EAC at 192 won't have impact then.
If you want to check it with APX, try 320kbps in the EAC settings.

Hmmm ....

Actually my --aps mp3's are not using a lower bitrate limit of 192 as Patsoe mentioned. I believe I do have the bitrate option set to '192' though.

I'm going to try what STSinNYC mentioned to make sure that EAC & RazorLAME actually produce the same file.

Maybe I'm using a different version of EAC than the rest of you?

If EAC has been adding extra parameters to the command line, do the default parameters it adds cause any loss of quality at all? Basically, if there is any loss of quality I'll probably re-encode (to MPC) otherwise I'll leave them as is.

Thanks,
-dave
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Pio2001
post Feb 20 2003, 12:33
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I'm sure it was answered somewhere on the web. I remember that the bitrate setting had no effect over the parameter, exept at 320 kbps (bug), but I don't remember if it was with external encoder or not.
Search in HydrogenAudio or EAC forums.
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tigre
post Feb 20 2003, 15:33
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QUOTE (tigre @ Feb 19 2003 - 11:38 PM)
Try this: Set (in EAC) "parameter passing scheme" to "Lame mp3 Encoder", "Additional command line options" to "--alt-preset standard" and change "Bit rate" values and see what happens.

Hm - I tried this myself - nothing happens blink.gif
I changed to using lame as user defined encoder some moths ago because someone else posted something similar (I think here on HA) as I did in my first post of this thread - and he had a convincing explanation why "user defined encoder" is better. But now I'm not sure anymore. Anyway for me it's not that important - I'll just keep using "user defined encoder" as I'm sure it'll do what I want it to do - and I'm too lazy to do a search (and maybe have to read a lot) or tests with many bitrates/commandlines.


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Let's suppose that rain washes out a picnic. Who is feeling negative? The rain? Or YOU? What's causing the negative feeling? The rain or your reaction? - Anthony De Mello
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dgover2
post Feb 20 2003, 15:39
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QUOTE (tigre @ Feb 20 2003 - 06:33 AM)
QUOTE (tigre @ Feb 19 2003 - 11:38 PM)
Try this: Set (in EAC) "parameter passing scheme" to "Lame mp3 Encoder", "Additional command line options" to "--alt-preset standard" and change "Bit rate" values and see what happens.

Hm - I tried this myself - nothing happens blink.gif
I changed to using lame as user defined encoder some moths ago because someone else posted something similar (I think here on HA) as I did in my first post of this thread - and he had a convincing explanation why "user defined encoder" is better. But now I'm not sure anymore. Anyway for me it's not that important - I'll just keep using "user defined encoder" as I'm sure it'll do what I want it to do - and I'm too lazy to do a search (and maybe have to read a lot) or tests with many bitrates/commandlines.

QUOTE
Hm - I tried this myself - nothing happens


That's what I wanted to hear smile.gif

Although I suppose this doesn't mean that EAC isn't mangling the MP3 in some other way with some other cmd line.

Hmm...

-dave
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rohangc
post Feb 20 2003, 15:42
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I've removed whatever was here. The modified version of this post is further down this page.

This post has been edited by rohangc: Feb 21 2003, 09:31
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dgover2
post Feb 20 2003, 15:49
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Since the filesizes are the same but the MD5 is different, perhaps its something in the LAME tag or ID3's or similar thats causing the difference in MD5?

Maybe you could check what Winamp (or similar) says the average bitrate is for these files?

Or even worse, maybe theres some option that EAC is passing to LAME that is resulting in the same average bitrate (same bitrate throughout when compared) but somehow the quality is different sad.gif

Thanks for the info anyway
-dave

Edit: didn't mean to quote the whole previous post!

This post has been edited by dgover2: Feb 20 2003, 15:50
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Jens Rex
post Feb 20 2003, 16:26
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It's very easy to find out exactly what parameters EAC passes to Lame.

Make a batch file like this:

CODE
@echo off
echo %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9
pause


Call it lame.bat (or whatever.bat) and make EAC use it as an encoder. It won't encode anything, but a command prompt should pop up displaying the exact command line arguments.

I remember doing this a long time ago wondering what was going on behind my back.
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dgover2
post Feb 20 2003, 16:46
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QUOTE
It's very easy to find out exactly what parameters EAC passes to Lame.

Make a batch file like this:

CODE
@echo off
echo %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9
pause


Call it lame.bat (or whatever.bat) and make EAC use it as an encoder. It won't encode anything, but a command prompt should pop up displaying the exact command line arguments.


Good idea and simple, thanks.

QUOTE
I remember doing this a long time ago wondering what was going on behind my back.


You sound paranoid! wink.gif

-dave
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rohangc
post Feb 20 2003, 17:02
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QUOTE (dgover2 @ Feb 20 2003 - 08:19 PM)
Since the filesizes are the same but the MD5 is different, perhaps its something in the LAME tag or ID3's or similar thats causing the difference in MD5?

Maybe you could check what Winamp (or similar) says the average bitrate is for these files?

Or even worse, maybe theres some option that EAC is passing to LAME that is resulting in the same average bitrate (same bitrate throughout when compared) but somehow the quality is different sad.gif

Thanks for the info anyway
-dave

Edit: didn't mean to quote the whole previous post!


Folks, I am sorry if I have posted wrong information. It was not deliberate. Yes, I realise I should've unchecked the "Add ID3 tag" field in "Compression Options". I will repeat the test tomorrow without this option. I will post the results about the same time tomorrow. Sorry anyway.

This post has been edited by rohangc: Feb 20 2003, 17:25
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tigre
post Feb 20 2003, 17:09
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I did another test:

Encoded a song with EAC 0.9b4 /lame 3.90.2 in following ways:
- User defined Encoder --alt-preset standard %s %d
- Lame MP3 Encoder --alt-preset standard Bitrate 96kbps
- - " - 128kbps
- - " - 192kbps
- - " - 256kbps
- - " - 320kbps

All mp3 files were same size exept for the last one which was bigger. (320kbps - bug mentioned by Pio2001)
I decoded all files using lamedropXPD (lame3.90.2) and did wav substractions. All decoded files were bit identical (exept the 320kbps of course).


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Let's suppose that rain washes out a picnic. Who is feeling negative? The rain? Or YOU? What's causing the negative feeling? The rain or your reaction? - Anthony De Mello
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dgover2
post Feb 20 2003, 19:06
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QUOTE (tigre @ Feb 20 2003 - 08:09 AM)
I did another test:

Encoded a song with EAC 0.9b4 /lame 3.90.2 in following ways:
- User defined Encoder --alt-preset standard %s %d
- Lame MP3 Encoder --alt-preset standard Bitrate 96kbps
-    - " -    128kbps
-    - " -    192kbps
-    - " -    256kbps
-    - " -    320kbps

All mp3 files were same size exept for the last one which was bigger. (320kbps - bug mentioned by Pio2001)
I decoded all files using lamedropXPD (lame3.90.2) and did wav substractions. All decoded files were bit identical (exept the 320kbps of course).


Excellent work Tigre, nothing to worry about then. Glad I don't have to re-encode my whole CD collection smile.gif

-dave
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rohangc
post Feb 20 2003, 19:44
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I found the answer!!! This is from Andre-the developer of EAC:
QUOTE
When having the "LAME external encoder" scheme selected, EAC will _always_ pass these information
-p (if CRC is selected)
-h/-f (depending on high/low quality selection)
-v -b (bitrate) =or= -b (bitrate) (when having VBR =or= CBR selected)
(additional command line)
(source filename) (target filename)
Also exactly in that order, depending on the options selected. If the additional command line overrides the EAC previous selected options depends on each case...
cu, Andre


The entire thread can be accessed here.
So, the question is still open. Does this actually affect the quality of encoded files?

This post has been edited by rohangc: Feb 20 2003, 19:49
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dgover2
post Feb 20 2003, 19:46
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QUOTE (rohangc @ Feb 20 2003 - 10:44 AM)
I found the answer!!! This is from Andre-the developer of EAC:
QUOTE

When having the "LAME external encoder" scheme selected, EAC will _always_ pass these information
-p (if CRC is selected)
-h/-f (depending on high/low quality selection)
-v -b (bitrate) =or= -b (bitrate) (when having VBR =or= CBR selected)
(additional command line)
(source filename) (target filename)
Also exactly in that order, depending on the options selected. If the additional command line overrides the EAC previous selected options depends on each case...
cu, Andre


So, the question is still open. Does this actually affect the quality of encoded files?

From the previous info in this thread I would say that question has been answered?

If I get the time I'll encode a track with User Defined and with Lame and check the MD5. That oughta answer it once and for all.

-dave
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rohangc
post Feb 20 2003, 19:51
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QUOTE (dgover2 @ Feb 21 2003 - 12:16 AM)
QUOTE (rohangc @ Feb 20 2003 - 10:44 AM)
I found the answer!!! This is from Andre-the developer of EAC:
QUOTE

When having the "LAME external encoder" scheme selected, EAC will _always_ pass these information
-p (if CRC is selected)
-h/-f (depending on high/low quality selection)
-v -b (bitrate) =or= -b (bitrate) (when having VBR =or= CBR selected)
(additional command line)
(source filename) (target filename)
Also exactly in that order, depending on the options selected. If the additional command line overrides the EAC previous selected options depends on each case...
cu, Andre


So, the question is still open. Does this actually affect the quality of encoded files?

From the previous info in this thread I would say that question has been answered?

If I get the time I'll encode a track with User Defined and with Lame and check the MD5. That oughta answer it once and for all.

-dave

I have just edited my post to add the link to the entire thread. Please set aside some time encode and compare a track to put an and to this uncertainity for once and for all.
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rohangc
post Feb 21 2003, 00:33
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Okay folks, I apologise for my earlier post which was a total fiasco. I conducted a new test in a similar manner but all the way from the beginning without the "Add ID3 Tag" option. This time, the post will be easier to read and understand. Well, This is what I did:

Part-1
--------

1. I Ripped 5 tracks from my favorite CD using EAC secure mode with no C2 and indicating that the drive caches audio data. This is not an important step in the experiment. However, I have mentioned it nonetheless. I ripped the track only once as repeated ripping and encoding makes no sense.


2. I Set the "Parameter Passing Scheme" field in "Compression Options" to "LAME MP3 Encoder" and the "Additional Command Line Options" as "--alt-preset standard". The other options were:

"Delete WAV after compression"-Unchecked.
"Use CRC Check"-Unchecked.
"Add ID3 tag"-Unchecked.
"High quality".

These options were set once at the beginning and were not changed throughout the experiment.


3. I then created five directories called Track 01, Track 02,...Track 05 in order to save different versions of the the five encoded tracks. For example, all MP3 copies of file Track 01.wav would go into directory "Track 01\" and so on.

4. I then encoded each wav file using the following bit rates by specifying them in the "Bit Rate" option:

CBR-96 Kbps
CBR-256 Kbps
VBR-96 Kbps
VBR-192 Kbps

Each file was named using the following convention and moved to its respective directory:

[CBR|VBR]-xxxKbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3


4. Therefore, each track was encoded 4 times using the options "LAME MP3 Encoder" and "--alt-preset standard". Twice each in CBR mode and twice each in VBR mode.


Part-2
--------

1. I now encoded the same WAV files after setting the "Parameter Passing Scheme" field in "Compression Options" to "User Defined Encoder" and the "Additional Command Line Options" to "--alt-preset standard %S %D". I then named the files using the convention:

xxxKbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3

I used the following bit-rates to encode the tracks and moved them into their respective folders:

32 Kbps
256 Kbps


2. Finally, I encoded each wav file directly using the DOS command line by passing "--alt-preset standard" as the parameter, named them DirectLame.mp3 and moved them into their respective directories. Please note that by now, each WAV file has been encoded 7 TIMES!!!.


3. I then created a separate .MD5 file for each of the five directories using Easy MD5 Creator. The resultant MD5 files are shown below:

Track 01
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 4:50:22 AM.
;
; File                                Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; --------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3     9,201,895       02:42:02 21/02/2003
; CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3    9,201,895       03:06:56 21/02/2003
; VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3     9,201,895       03:28:07 21/02/2003
; VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3    9,201,895       03:48:55 21/02/2003
; 32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3     9,201,895       04:10:27 21/02/2003
; 256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3    9,201,895       04:31:06 21/02/2003
; DirectLame.mp3                      9,201,895       04:39:15 21/02/2003
;
CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 09DCDFFA9CF83E71F5B3907FB9E401EB
CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 C8810C29AB6EEC45B27CDB9E49402AB8
VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 09DCDFFA9CF83E71F5B3907FB9E401EB
VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 F7BE8BF861666D6760F0C15FD19AB231
32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 997A114E5F737C66780D8EA4BD46627D
256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 997A114E5F737C66780D8EA4BD46627D
DirectLame.mp3 997A114E5F737C66780D8EA4BD46627D
; End of MD5 file.


Track 02
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 4:51:28 AM.
;
; File                                Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; --------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3     6,879,924       02:31:33 21/02/2003
; CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3    6,879,924       02:56:19 21/02/2003
; VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3     6,879,924       03:17:23 21/02/2003
; VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3    6,879,924       03:38:34 21/02/2003
; 32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3     6,879,924       04:00:02 21/02/2003
; 256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3    6,879,924       04:20:26 21/02/2003
; DirectLame.mp3                      6,879,924       04:45:06 21/02/2003
;
CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 AA8B2407A629EB6EE65CDE52D85CE2A6
CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 E72B23E234EDA05D58701A5E94987F7E
VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 AA8B2407A629EB6EE65CDE52D85CE2A6
VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 AE58E6412638DAF3B1D54304F17281DE
32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 A98386C87163831B02A5DE672CF065FE
256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 A98386C87163831B02A5DE672CF065FE
DirectLame.mp3 A98386C87163831B02A5DE672CF065FE
; End of MD5 file.


Track 03
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 4:55:44 AM.
;
; File                                Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; --------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3     7,483,054       02:35:22 21/02/2003
; CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3    7,483,054       03:00:10 21/02/2003
; VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3     7,483,054       03:21:17 21/02/2003
; VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3    7,483,054       03:42:20 21/02/2003
; 32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3     7,483,054       04:03:50 21/02/2003
; 256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3    7,483,054       04:24:18 21/02/2003
; DirectLame.mp3                      7,483,054       04:49:37 21/02/2003
;
CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 25AABFEFDABDC3E7DCFD827F44EA299A
CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 9C99A64024B09CF7F53747AE2F2195CF
VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 25AABFEFDABDC3E7DCFD827F44EA299A
VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 C6AFAE61E519A05F178F00C5386E23DF
32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 116CD0F6D618402C39FE550D99718450
256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 116CD0F6D618402C39FE550D99718450
DirectLame.mp3 116CD0F6D618402C39FE550D99718450
; End of MD5 file.


Track 04
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 4:58:05 AM.
;
; File                                Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; --------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3     2,790,812       02:39:57 21/02/2003
; CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3    2,790,812       03:04:51 21/02/2003
; VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3     2,790,812       03:26:04 21/02/2003
; VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3    2,790,812       03:46:55 21/02/2003
; 32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3     2,790,812       04:08:27 21/02/2003
; 256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3    2,790,812       04:29:02 21/02/2003
; DirectLame.mp3                      2,790,812       04:55:08 21/02/2003
;
CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 832B9D760864B97422B23584309D2CDA
CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 4721761298C10D473E72026B91A0F790
VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 832B9D760864B97422B23584309D2CDA
VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 30DB19224E863D17E3B8181D97BE5301
32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 ECAA56860F9FBD62FC95C9E25612371A
256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 ECAA56860F9FBD62FC95C9E25612371A
DirectLame.mp3 ECAA56860F9FBD62FC95C9E25612371A
; End of MD5 file.


Track 05
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 5:00:17 AM.
;
; File                                Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; --------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3     3,349,434       02:29:24 21/02/2003
; CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3    3,349,434       02:54:07 21/02/2003
; VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3     3,349,434       03:15:10 21/02/2003
; VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3    3,349,434       03:36:24 21/02/2003
; 32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3     3,349,434       03:57:53 21/02/2003
; 256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3    3,349,434       04:18:07 21/02/2003
; DirectLame.mp3                      3,349,434       04:57:37 21/02/2003
;
CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 CBC741E302741F96ED6FB9E61967824A
CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.mp3 70B7B7F832AD2F6069B335FDF8AF5C68
VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 CBC741E302741F96ED6FB9E61967824A
VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.mp3 7A1AB89DBEDECDA5BBBC9D0130CC0B0B
32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 6111FD345EE568B2CAB1F4A6D25C4D20
256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.mp3 6111FD345EE568B2CAB1F4A6D25C4D20
DirectLame.mp3 6111FD345EE568B2CAB1F4A6D25C4D20
; End of MD5 file.



Conclusion:
---------------
Okay, it is time to analyze the observations and draw the inference. By looking at the .MD5 files, it is obvious that all files have the same size. However, the MD5 values differ in case of files encoded with the option "LAME MP3 Encoder" while in case of files encoded with the option "User Defined Encoder", the MD5 values remain identical, not only with each other but even with those ripped directly using LAME without a front-end. So, it is now clear that EAC does pass additional parameters when "LAME MP3 Encoder" is selected. This is sad. I really don't think I can re-rip all those CDs, but if my MP3s are really not upto the mark, then I may actually do so. However, can somebody analyze the resultant files and tell us how different the files sound?



Okay folks, now that I have spent the rest of my day (another 4 hours) conducting this experiment again, I think I deserve some rest and will to bed now. I love you all. I love these forums. Bye!!!
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Patsoe
post Feb 21 2003, 02:38
Post #24





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 591
Joined: 11-February 03
From: UK
Member No.: 4952



I strongly doubt that, if the extra settings were taken into account by the encoder, you'd get the exact same filesizes on different settings.

Probably, I was wrong with my earlier statement. I'm sure EAC will append its settings to the command line when not set to "user defined". As you quoted, rohangc, andre wiethoff confirms this. But, seeing your results, I now believe Lame simply doesn't do anything with those parameters when it sees --aps among the switches (as Pio2001 said above here).

The constant filesize with changing md5 inplies that some fixed length thing differs among the files. Lame header? You can check most easily by decoding to wav and see if the wavs have the same md5. Or, you could strip the Lame headers, then check md5.
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rohangc
post Feb 21 2003, 09:33
Post #25





Group: Members
Posts: 570
Joined: 1-December 02
From: India
Member No.: 3948



QUOTE (Patsoe @ Feb 21 2003 - 07:08 AM)
I strongly doubt that, if the extra settings were taken into account by the encoder, you'd get the exact same filesizes on different settings.

Probably, I was wrong with my earlier statement. I'm sure EAC will append its settings to the command line when not set to "user defined". As you quoted, rohangc, andre wiethoff confirms this. But, seeing your results, I now believe Lame simply doesn't do anything with those parameters when it sees --aps among the switches (as Pio2001 said above here).

The constant filesize with changing md5 inplies that some fixed length thing differs among the files. Lame header? You can check most easily by decoding to wav and see if the wavs have the same md5. Or, you could strip the Lame headers, then check md5.

1. I loaded up Winamp 2.81, fired up the output plugin "Nullsoft Disk Writer plug-in v2.0c" and configured it to write the files in "PCM 44,100 KHz, 16 Bit Stereo". All other boxes in that window were un-checked. I hope what I've done here is right.


2. I added the 7 encoded versions of each track to the playlist and hit the "Play" button. I saved the decoded files into folders named "Track 01-Decoded", "Track 02-Decoded", etc.


3. I created .MD5 files for each such directory containing decoded files of the same song. The .MD5 files are shown below.


Track 01
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 1:45:07 PM.
;
; File                                    Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; ------------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; 001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav    65,604,140      13:41:27 21/02/2003
; 002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav     65,604,140      13:41:45 21/02/2003
; 003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav    65,604,140      13:42:01 21/02/2003
; 004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav     65,604,140      13:42:19 21/02/2003
; 005_DirectLame.wav                      65,604,140      13:42:36 21/02/2003
; 006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav    65,604,140      13:42:54 21/02/2003
; 007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav     65,604,140      13:43:11 21/02/2003
;
001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav 249D7B2FB73C508656DD5DC80329E612
002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav 249D7B2FB73C508656DD5DC80329E612
003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav 249D7B2FB73C508656DD5DC80329E612
004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav 249D7B2FB73C508656DD5DC80329E612
005_DirectLame.wav 249D7B2FB73C508656DD5DC80329E612
006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav 249D7B2FB73C508656DD5DC80329E612
007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav 249D7B2FB73C508656DD5DC80329E612
; End of MD5 file.



Track 02
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 1:48:56 PM.
;
; File                                    Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; ------------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; 001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav    50,019,884      13:45:09 21/02/2003
; 002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav     50,019,884      13:45:23 21/02/2003
; 003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav    50,019,884      13:45:37 21/02/2003
; 004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav     50,019,884      13:45:50 21/02/2003
; 005_DirectLame.wav                      50,019,884      13:46:05 21/02/2003
; 006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav    50,019,884      13:46:17 21/02/2003
; 007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav     50,019,884      13:46:31 21/02/2003
;
001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav DD22EED95723EE3C0F9521C37B510CF2
002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav DD22EED95723EE3C0F9521C37B510CF2
003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav DD22EED95723EE3C0F9521C37B510CF2
004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav DD22EED95723EE3C0F9521C37B510CF2
005_DirectLame.wav DD22EED95723EE3C0F9521C37B510CF2
006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav DD22EED95723EE3C0F9521C37B510CF2
007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav DD22EED95723EE3C0F9521C37B510CF2
; End of MD5 file.



Track 03
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 1:52:57 PM.
;
; File                                    Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; ------------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; 001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav    55,461,932      13:49:59 21/02/2003
; 002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav     55,461,932      13:50:13 21/02/2003
; 003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav    55,461,932      13:50:28 21/02/2003
; 004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav     55,461,932      13:50:41 21/02/2003
; 005_DirectLame.wav                      55,461,932      13:50:55 21/02/2003
; 006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav    55,461,932      13:51:10 21/02/2003
; 007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav     55,461,932      13:51:25 21/02/2003
;
001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav 47B9AF0CA5C1668CA55F3646E96BB2C4
002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav 47B9AF0CA5C1668CA55F3646E96BB2C4
003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav 47B9AF0CA5C1668CA55F3646E96BB2C4
004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav 47B9AF0CA5C1668CA55F3646E96BB2C4
005_DirectLame.wav 47B9AF0CA5C1668CA55F3646E96BB2C4
006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav 47B9AF0CA5C1668CA55F3646E96BB2C4
007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav 47B9AF0CA5C1668CA55F3646E96BB2C4
; End of MD5 file.



Track 04
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 1:55:13 PM.
;
; File                                    Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; ------------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; 001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav    30,795,308      13:53:45 21/02/2003
; 002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav     30,795,308      13:53:53 21/02/2003
; 003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav    30,795,308      13:54:00 21/02/2003
; 004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav     30,795,308      13:54:06 21/02/2003
; 005_DirectLame.wav                      30,795,308      13:54:12 21/02/2003
; 006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav    30,795,308      13:54:20 21/02/2003
; 007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav     30,795,308      13:54:27 21/02/2003
;
001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav 00148F05AD4246DE702805C53C3F7629
002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav 00148F05AD4246DE702805C53C3F7629
003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav 00148F05AD4246DE702805C53C3F7629
004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav 00148F05AD4246DE702805C53C3F7629
005_DirectLame.wav 00148F05AD4246DE702805C53C3F7629
006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav 00148F05AD4246DE702805C53C3F7629
007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav 00148F05AD4246DE702805C53C3F7629
; End of MD5 file.



Track 05
QUOTE
; Generated by Easy MD5 Creator 1.4.0 on 21 February 2003 at 1:57:27 PM.
;
; File                                    Size (Bytes)    Time/Date
; ------------------------------------    ------------    ---------
; 001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav    31,910,444      13:55:52 21/02/2003
; 002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav     31,910,444      13:56:00 21/02/2003
; 003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav    31,910,444      13:56:07 21/02/2003
; 004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav     31,910,444      13:56:14 21/02/2003
; 005_DirectLame.wav                      31,910,444      13:56:22 21/02/2003
; 006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav    31,910,444      13:56:30 21/02/2003
; 007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav     31,910,444      13:56:37 21/02/2003
;
001_256Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav 51108A3204E65AB56FFBEA9F4AEA8493
002_32Kbps-User Defined Encoder.wav 51108A3204E65AB56FFBEA9F4AEA8493
003_CBR-256Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav 51108A3204E65AB56FFBEA9F4AEA8493
004_CBR-96Kbps-Lame MP3 Encoder.wav 51108A3204E65AB56FFBEA9F4AEA8493
005_DirectLame.wav 51108A3204E65AB56FFBEA9F4AEA8493
006_VBR-192Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav 51108A3204E65AB56FFBEA9F4AEA8493
007_VBR-96Kbps-LAME MP3 Encoder.wav 51108A3204E65AB56FFBEA9F4AEA8493
; End of MD5 file.



Conclusion:
----------
The results are what we hoped they would be!!!!!!!!!!!!! The decoded files are identical to the last bit. Folks, Patsoe was right. Let's open that bottle of champagne and celebrate!!!! laugh.gif I guess the reason why the actual MP3 files were not identical was that they had additional information (LAME headers) written onto them. Otherwise, "--alt-preset standard" is "--alt-preset standard", no matter which "Parameter Passing Scheme" you use. I hope this has finally answered our question and brings an end to this traumatic discussion. Thanks a lot for your patience folks. I love you all and I love this forum. Bye.

This post has been edited by rohangc: Feb 21 2003, 10:34
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