IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Informed rebuttal of VBR disadvantages appreciated, VBR always rocks, when it comes to lossy compression, right?
Moon
post Oct 16 2008, 09:54
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 2-March 04
Member No.: 12407



As already mentinend in this thread some fanboy over at the offical Pioneer forums is making claims that VBR sucks (here and here) in that it needs more processing power compared to CBR and for various other reasons.

I would like to have a well written rebuttal of that statment based on facts so Pioneer might reconsider putting VBR support into their upcoming DJ equipment. I've ripped all my 1000+ CDs to VBR and I wouldn't want to reencode them just because Pioneer doesn't get it right. Thanks!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
DJRyanJ
post Oct 18 2008, 01:11
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 11
Joined: 16-October 08
Member No.: 60185



QUOTE (Slipstreem @ Oct 17 2008, 13:59) *
On that basis, if you found out that that you couldn't tell the difference between a CD quality source and, say, the ~128Kbps LAME VBR in our listening tests, would you then reconsider your need for 320Kbps CBR?


I'm not ready to do that just yet, for a couple of reasons:

1) I occasionally remix the tracks I use, and while I'm no pro remixer, I try to maintain quality where I can. When an uncompressed version is not available, I must use my MP3 copy, and in that respect having the highest possible original copy is best.

2) I don't have a problem with the amount of space that a 320kbps CBR takes vs. a VBR. I've accepted the amount of space that a 320kbps CBR takes and I'm OK with it; if we can all agree that the point of MP3 is to save space, then likely everyone has a different level that they're willing to accept in terms of saved space. Mine is currently at 320kbps.

3) I don't totally trust my ears. That sounds ridiculous given the topic at hand, but just because I can't tell the difference doesn't mean someone else can't (or won't be able to in the future - my music collection is also designed to last a long time).

Given those reasons, if someone could conclusively prove that VBR not only saved space over a 320kbps CBR but ALSO provided CONSISTENTLY better sounding files, then I'd be the first to switch over, as long as the program I use to play back with supported them.

QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Oct 17 2008, 14:27) *
Even if you use lower bitrate music (128kbps-160kbps), you won't be the limiting factor. There are far too many factors that degrade the perceived sound quality of music let alone in a club/dance hall/whatever. Also don't forget that you are playing music for an audience where the majority of people are fine with 128kbps WMA/AAC music from legal online stores. Just know that the quality of music that the DJ uses if often the very last limiting factor amongst thousands of other factors.


I know this is true; and you forgot something: the sheer drunkenness of the crowd laugh.gif . But just because the general public accepts that level of quality doesn't mean that I should. In my opinion this is one of the fundamental wrongs with the online music idea (and, in some ways, society in general - but this is hardly the forum for that wink.gif ); few seem to care about quality and are willing to accept things as being "good enough".

QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Oct 17 2008, 14:27) *
The use of uncompressed audio simply is not needed in a day where we have lossless codecs and high performing lossy codecs that can achieve transparency at such low bitrates (128kbps). ... I think that will help you further understand what we are trying to say.


This may be true. And I do understand what you're trying to say; but until the day when we see wide-spread adoption of these lossless codecs as well as a wide-spread knowledge of the way to PROPERLY encode things with those high performance lossy codecs, then I think we may be stuck with the "evils" of uncompressed audio laugh.gif

As for me, as mentioned above, while I may not be able to tell, and you may not be able to tell, and VBR may be good enough for me, I'm just not quite ready to accept it. However, that in mind, I will continue to experiment, monitor, and otherwise expand my mind and opinions.

I will not, however, be spreading lies about VBR any longer, and will in fact promote them to appropriate people.

-r-

This post has been edited by DJRyanJ: Oct 18 2008, 01:12
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Synthetic Soul
post Oct 18 2008, 10:00
Post #3





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4887
Joined: 12-August 04
From: Exeter, UK
Member No.: 16217



QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 18 2008, 01:11) *
I'm not ready to do that just yet, for a couple of reasons:

1) I occasionally remix the tracks I use, and while I'm no pro remixer, I try to maintain quality where I can. When an uncompressed version is not available, I must use my MP3 copy, and in that respect having the highest possible original copy is best.

2) I don't have a problem with the amount of space that a 320kbps CBR takes vs. a VBR. I've accepted the amount of space that a 320kbps CBR takes and I'm OK with it; if we can all agree that the point of MP3 is to save space, then likely everyone has a different level that they're willing to accept in terms of saved space. Mine is currently at 320kbps.

3) I don't totally trust my ears. That sounds ridiculous given the topic at hand, but just because I can't tell the difference doesn't mean someone else can't (or won't be able to in the future - my music collection is also designed to last a long time).
Some extremely valid points.

This topic seems to have meandered quite a bit, and it's been interesting in part.

I would like to point out that personally I have no issue with someone choosing to use 320kbps CBR. I do have an issue with people using FUD to stop people using VBR, or lower bitrate files, when they may actually be completely suitable for them, and more ideal than 320kbps CBR.

In essence, the software cannot handle VBR, and that is a failing of the software. Trying to negate that failing by saying that people who use VBR or sub-320kbps CBR files are fools is just really, really, wrong. Pulse should stick to what he knows.


--------------------
I'm on a horse.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Moon   Informed rebuttal of VBR disadvantages appreciated   Oct 16 2008, 09:54
- - Raiden   Don't waste your energy. Self-absorbed people ...   Oct 16 2008, 10:51
- - halb27   It's all up to whether an encoder works well. ...   Oct 16 2008, 11:27
- - JensRex   Yes, don't waste your time. That guy is comple...   Oct 16 2008, 11:43
- - Slipstreem   As the other guys have already said, you're wa...   Oct 16 2008, 12:56
|- - add   QUOTE (Slipstreem @ Oct 16 2008, 13:56) C...   Oct 16 2008, 16:40
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (add @ Oct 16 2008, 17:40) QUOTE (S...   Oct 16 2008, 17:19
- - probedb   No point with some of these people....I've giv...   Oct 16 2008, 12:59
- - Canar   These threads are really old. I created an account...   Oct 16 2008, 16:59
|- - Synthetic Soul   QUOTE (Canar @ Oct 16 2008, 16:59) I resp...   Oct 16 2008, 17:08
- - Canar   No, I think I'm going mad. That post I made is...   Oct 16 2008, 18:10
|- - uart   QUOTE (Canar @ Oct 16 2008, 09:10) No, I ...   Oct 16 2008, 20:01
- - Slipstreem   Well, we have an answer of sorts over there from a...   Oct 16 2008, 18:18
- - Soap   Mind, if you do decide to argue: The argument that...   Oct 16 2008, 18:59
- - Slipstreem   I'm specifically not joining that forum as I...   Oct 16 2008, 19:39
- - Canar   Who is BDX?   Oct 16 2008, 20:03
|- - DJRyanJ   Alright guys, I'm the guy who did the wall of ...   Oct 16 2008, 20:49
|- - halb27   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 16 2008, 21:49) ...S...   Oct 16 2008, 21:29
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 16 2008, 19:49) 5) W...   Oct 16 2008, 21:36
- - uart   I dont know, it's not me. Does anyone have a t...   Oct 16 2008, 20:06
- - Slipstreem   It wasn't me either, and I don't have a tr...   Oct 16 2008, 20:12
- - kornchild2002   I will post just to be ballsy. I don't see Pu...   Oct 16 2008, 20:48
- - Canar   I don't have the time right now to get more in...   Oct 16 2008, 21:13
- - m0rbidini   Pioneer should support VBR and stfu. If using VBR ...   Oct 16 2008, 21:57
- - DJRyanJ   OK, I have a brief moment here before my midterm s...   Oct 16 2008, 22:00
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 16 2008, 14:00) Why ...   Oct 16 2008, 22:59
|- - m0rbidini   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 16 2008, 22:00) QUOT...   Oct 16 2008, 23:32
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 16 2008, 21:00) I...   Oct 17 2008, 03:09
- - [JAZ]   I guess most it said already but I'd like to c...   Oct 16 2008, 23:01
- - Axon   What MP3 decoding library does Wavelab use? It...   Oct 16 2008, 23:02
- - DJRyanJ   QUOTE About 0.01% had issues. Most where CBRs. Di...   Oct 17 2008, 04:39
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 17 2008, 03:39) Did ...   Oct 17 2008, 05:06
- - xmixahlx   1. regarding the difficulty of decoding VBR it...   Oct 17 2008, 05:52
- - m0rbidini   QUOTE I've seen this in my very limited video ...   Oct 17 2008, 11:00
- - Lyx   Why have a long discussion when it all can be summ...   Oct 17 2008, 13:21
|- - halb27   QUOTE (Lyx @ Oct 17 2008, 14:21) Why have...   Oct 17 2008, 14:33
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (halb27 @ Oct 17 2008, 17:33) QUOTE...   Oct 17 2008, 14:49
|- - Lyx   QUOTE But maximum bitrate for LAME VBR (i.e. lame ...   Oct 17 2008, 15:13
- - pdq   I am guessing (and I don't really know anythin...   Oct 17 2008, 13:50
- - Slipstreem   Won't the part of the audio stream being worke...   Oct 17 2008, 13:57
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Slipstreem @ Oct 17 2008, 08:57) W...   Oct 17 2008, 14:48
- - Synthetic Soul   DJRyanJ, kudos for making the effort to partake in...   Oct 17 2008, 14:04
- - Slipstreem   I'm gonna have to go and read more about how t...   Oct 17 2008, 15:01
- - Slipstreem   The only problem I can see with that is that some ...   Oct 17 2008, 15:43
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (Slipstreem @ Oct 17 2008, 16:43) T...   Oct 17 2008, 15:56
- - halb27   IMO the old --preset scheme or a similar one addre...   Oct 17 2008, 15:59
- - greynol   Now we're just going around in circles. There...   Oct 17 2008, 16:05
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 17 2008, 17:05) Now ...   Oct 17 2008, 16:21
- - Synthetic Soul   We're also going way off-topic...   Oct 17 2008, 16:53
- - Slipstreem   A quick heads-up (not that I've been spying). ...   Oct 17 2008, 19:25
- - DJRyanJ   I actually know Pulse personally and he's not ...   Oct 17 2008, 20:59
|- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 17 2008, 13:59) I...   Oct 17 2008, 21:21
|- - Canar   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Oct 17 2008, 13:21...   Oct 17 2008, 21:48
||- - kornchild2002   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 17 2008, 14:40) Gene...   Oct 17 2008, 22:27
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Oct 17 2008, 20:21...   Oct 19 2008, 19:25
- - Neasden   On the switch subject, I just would like to add th...   Oct 17 2008, 21:34
- - DJRyanJ   QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Oct 17 2008, 13:21...   Oct 17 2008, 21:40
|- - Slipstreem   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 17 2008, 21:40) What...   Oct 17 2008, 21:59
- - DJRyanJ   QUOTE (Slipstreem @ Oct 17 2008, 13:59) O...   Oct 18 2008, 01:11
|- - Synthetic Soul   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 18 2008, 01:11) I...   Oct 18 2008, 10:00
- - Moon   Well, I'm sorry but after finding out about Pi...   Oct 18 2008, 11:11
|- - Synthetic Soul   QUOTE (Moon @ Oct 18 2008, 11:11) Well, I...   Oct 18 2008, 19:04
- - Slipstreem   With reference to your last paragraph, have you tr...   Oct 18 2008, 13:04
- - Moon   I'm gonna try em tonight. I've also conver...   Oct 18 2008, 16:36
- - pdq   If even a single frame uses 320 kbps then the enti...   Oct 18 2008, 22:16
- - Moon   QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Oct 18 2008, 20:0...   Oct 19 2008, 09:24
- - DJRyanJ   QUOTE (Moon @ Oct 18 2008, 03:11) a) a fu...   Oct 19 2008, 10:33
|- - Synthetic Soul   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 19 2008, 10:33) I su...   Oct 19 2008, 11:54
|- - Moon   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 19 2008, 11:33) QUOT...   Oct 20 2008, 09:50
- - shadowking   Dj's of the world please stop bothering us wit...   Oct 20 2008, 12:50
- - DJRyanJ   I'm trying to do some comparisons, and I'm...   Oct 21 2008, 19:58
|- - Canar   http://ff123.net/samples.html is a good place to s...   Oct 21 2008, 20:16
- - halb27   On problemSamples folder you'll find those sam...   Oct 21 2008, 20:25
- - DJRyanJ   QUOTE (Canar @ Oct 21 2008, 13:16) Howeve...   Oct 21 2008, 20:58
|- - halb27   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 21 2008, 21:58) .. f...   Oct 21 2008, 22:06
|- - Moon   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 21 2008, 21:58) I...   Oct 21 2008, 22:28
|- - Slipstreem   QUOTE (DJRyanJ @ Oct 21 2008, 20:58) I...   Oct 22 2008, 00:52
- - lvqcl   QUOTE It refers to the LAME problem samples page f...   Oct 21 2008, 21:09
|- - Canar   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Oct 21 2008, 13:09) http:/...   Oct 21 2008, 21:26
- - DJRyanJ   That's the plan, slipstreem. Moon, I'll s...   Oct 22 2008, 04:31


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st October 2014 - 04:30