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Lame APS nukes MPC 5 on Amnesia.wav, What the #@?
Pio2001
post Feb 22 2003, 04:06
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I took more than 200 CDs and asked myself which ones would maybe have transients the would be close to Amnesia, and cause problems with MPC.
I found 41 tracks with more or less transients, but none of them have as strong ones as amnesia, and none of them caused obvious problems to MPC encoding (I didn't search for artifacts smaller than the ones in Amnesia, and I only listened to the parts with transients), which is comforting :

Autechre -- Chiastic Slide -- 03 Tewe.wav
Unknown Artist -- Unknown Title -- 08 Track08.wav
Arcana -- Cantar de Procella -- 01 The Opening of the Wound.wav
Kraftwerk Ralf und Florian Kristallo.wav
ELEGIA -- SOUND WITHIN -- 06 rainfall....wav
C.J. Bolland -- Electronic Highway -- 07 Spoof.wav
Autechre Avil vapre Track01.wav
Autechre Anvil VapreTrack04.wav
Unknown Artist -- Unknown Title -- 09 Track09.wav
Front 242 -- Angels Versus Animals -- 02 Angel (Wipe Out).wav
Front 242 -- 06-21-03-11 Up Evil -- 13 Religion (Pussy Whipped mix).wav
Lenny Dee & Ralphie Dee - I Control Your Body.wav
Tellurian - Speed of Light.wav
Annihilator - S.D.R (Bam Bam).wav
Front 242 -- Angels Versus Animals -- 07 Der Verfluchte Engel.wav
Electric Universe -- Stardiver -- 08 Astral Voyage (Edit).wav
Prototype 909 - understand.wav
Electric Universe -- Stardiver -- 11 Alien Encounter (Part 1).wav
Unkknown Artist -- Unknown Title -- 08 Clavecin.wav
Air Liquide - sun progress.wav
The Irresistible Force - space is the place.wav
Mimir -- Mimir -- 06 December 3. 1989.wav
Mimir -- Mimir -- 07 December 2. 1989.wav
Electric Universe -- One Love -- 08 Visiting Venus.wav
Kldnge - No Future.wav
The Future Sound of London -- Omnipresence.wav
Beaumont Hannant -- Teqtonik.wav
Autechre -- Doctrine.wav
The Chekists -- Global (remix).wav
Sun Electric -- Sarotti.wav
AFX (aka Aphex Twin) -- .215061 (Analogue Bubblebath 3).wav
Difficult Child -- Fear.wav
Age -- Eine fremde Lebensform.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 03 Koram … sept temps.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 09 Pu et Mu.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 11 Sur un bateau.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 20 Depuis les t‚nŠbres lointaines.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 22 Nous y avons cru.wav
Depeche Mode -- Some Great Reward -- 03 People are people.wav
Depeche Mode -- Some Great Reward -- 07 Master and servant.wav
Depeche Mode -- Some Great Reward -- 08 If you want.wav
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JohnV
post Feb 22 2003, 11:15
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Hmm, I'm testing the new mppenc 1.15r.

Funny thing is that if the source amnesia.wav is 48kHz, standard sounds clearly better than if the source amnesia.wav is first downsampled to 44.1kHz and then encoded with 1.15r standard.

I can clearly ABA (4/4) the difference between the MPCs depending whether the source has been 48khz or 44.1khz. 44.1khz version sounds clearly worse: noise spreading around and more watery sound. I hear it better if I try to forget the "choir" and don't use too high volume.

I uploaded 44.1kHz here: amnesia44.flac. It's downsampled from the original using CoolEdit2pro quality 999.
Here is the original 48khz amnesia.flac.

edit. Well, you can see also from the spectral view, that if the source was 44.1kHz, the resulting MPC's spectra has larger dropouts.

This post has been edited by JohnV: Feb 22 2003, 13:55


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Frank Klemm
post Feb 23 2003, 14:30
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QUOTE (JohnV @ Feb 22 2003 - 12:15 PM)
Hmm, I'm testing the new mppenc 1.15r.

Funny thing is that if the source amnesia.wav is 48kHz, standard sounds clearly better than if the source amnesia.wav is first downsampled to 44.1kHz and then encoded with 1.15r standard.

I can clearly ABA (4/4) the difference between the MPCs depending whether the source has been 48khz or 44.1khz. 44.1khz version sounds clearly worse: noise spreading around and more watery sound. I hear it better if I try to forget the "choir" and don't use too high volume.

I uploaded 44.1kHz here: amnesia44.flac. It's downsampled from the original using CoolEdit2pro quality 999.
Here is the original 48khz amnesia.flac.

edit. Well, you can see also from the spectral view, that if the source was 44.1kHz, the resulting MPC's spectra has larger dropouts.

Where can I see the spectral plots? (44.1 + 48)
Is the noise a continuous noise or is it only sometimes audible?
What say 1.95z6 with 44.1/48/64 kHz?
What headphones / loudspeakers do you use (I hope nothing like HD570/HD575/HD590)?
RMS level in Volts on loudspeakers?
Is there a need of a switch which headphone/loudspeaker do you use for listening?

I have currently some trouble with the email/WWW access.

This post has been edited by Frank Klemm: Feb 23 2003, 14:31


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guruboolez
post Feb 23 2003, 14:55
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in the 0.500 sec. area.

mpc 1.14 std representation
original représentation

I heard it with my headphones (both Philips HP910 & BeyerDynamic DT-531)
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JohnV
post Feb 23 2003, 17:04
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Below are the graphs for comparing 48khz and 44khz amnesia using mppenc 1.15r standard.

48kHz version 0.43-0.76s sounds closer to the original. (downsampled after encoding to 44khz for easier graphical comparison)
44kHz version 0.43-0.76s has 2 increased spreading noise bursts, probably where the big dropouts happen around 0.53s and 0.64s.

I think this is the most audible difference, but there's all the time positions where 44kHz version gives a bit louder noise bursts than 48khz. I'm not saying that 48khz is transparent, but it's better than 44khz.

Audible with all the headphones I tested.


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JohnV
post Feb 23 2003, 17:39
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QUOTE (Frank Klemm @ Feb 23 2003 - 03:30 PM)
What say 1.95z6 with 44.1/48/64 kHz?

I'll tell you when I get win32 binaries, or somebody encodes amensia with it.
Case currently has only 1.95e. And I can't access your page atm.


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Frank Klemm
post Feb 23 2003, 17:44
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QUOTE (guruboolez @ Feb 23 2003 - 03:55 PM)
in the 0.500 sec. area.

mpc 1.14 std representation
original représentation

I heard it with my headphones (both Philips HP910 & BeyerDynamic DT-531)

1.14 is uninteresting. 1.15q/r and 1.95z4/5/6/7/8 handles such audio quite different.


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guruboolez
post Feb 23 2003, 18:19
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QUOTE (Frank Klemm @ Feb 23 2003 - 05:44 PM)
1.14 is uninteresting. 1.15q/r and 1.95z4/5/6/7/8 handles such audio quite different.

Sorry.

Here is the similar portion, encoded with mppenc 1.15r. Dropout is visually reduced. I can't ABX it for the moment.

mpc 1.14 std representation
mpc 1.15r std representation
original représentation
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JohnV
post Feb 23 2003, 18:28
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QUOTE (guruboolez @ Feb 23 2003 - 07:19 PM)
Here is the similar portion, encoded with mppenc 1.15r. Dropout is visually reduced. I can't ABX it for the moment.

If you try the 44kHz version, you'll see big dropouts again, and should be able to ABX.
amnesia44.flac


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guruboolez
post Feb 23 2003, 18:35
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ABX result :

CODE
1L = D:\temp\amnesia\amnesia.1.15r.wav
2L = D:\temp\amnesia\amnesia.mpc5.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
1L File: D:\temp\amnesia\amnesia.1.15r.wav
1L Rating: 3.5
1L Comment: saut (dropout) assez prononcé.
---------------------------------------
2L File: D:\temp\amnesia\amnesia.mpc5.wav
2L Rating: 2.5
2L Comment: son métallique; bruit.
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs D:\temp\amnesia\amnesia.1.15r.wav
   8 out of 10, pval = 0.055
Original vs D:\temp\amnesia\amnesia.mpc5.wav
   9 out of 10, pval = 0.011
D:\temp\amnesia\amnesia.1.15r.wav vs D:\temp\amnesia\amnesia.mpc5.wav
   8 out of 10, pval = 0.055


Dropout audible with 1.15r ; but sound distorsion is reduced (44K version).

EDIT : 1.15r challenger is the 1.14 version

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Feb 23 2003, 19:36
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Frank Klemm
post Feb 23 2003, 18:45
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QUOTE (JohnV @ Feb 23 2003 - 07:28 PM)
QUOTE (guruboolez @ Feb 23 2003 - 07:19 PM)
Here is the similar portion, encoded with mppenc 1.15r. Dropout is visually reduced. I can't ABX it for the moment.

If you try the 44kHz version, you'll see big dropouts again, and should be able to ABX.
amnesia44.flac

lowpass the original and decoded signal at

- 6,5 kHz
- 11 kHz

and try to compare originla vs. encoded/decoded.


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Case
post Feb 23 2003, 18:47
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Mppenc 1.95z6 for Win32 and 1.95z2 for Linux are available.
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guruboolez
post Feb 23 2003, 19:34
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IMO, 1.95z6 is worse than 1.15r. Dropout, at the beginning, increased again. Confirmed with CoolEdit :

mpc 1.95z6

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Feb 23 2003, 19:40
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JohnV
post Feb 23 2003, 19:40
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QUOTE (Frank Klemm @ Feb 23 2003 - 07:45 PM)
QUOTE (JohnV @ Feb 23 2003 - 07:28 PM)
QUOTE (guruboolez @ Feb 23 2003 - 07:19 PM)
Here is the similar portion, encoded with mppenc 1.15r. Dropout is visually reduced. I can't ABX it for the moment.

If you try the 44kHz version, you'll see big dropouts again, and should be able to ABX.
amnesia44.flac

lowpass the original and decoded signal at

- 6,5 kHz
- 11 kHz

and try to compare originla vs. encoded/decoded.

Lowpassed the original&decoded (mppenc 1.15r standard) using 6.5khz lowpass.

Original vs amnesia44khz.mpc after lowpass 6.5khz
ABA 7/7 propability of guessing <0.1%

amnesia48khz.mpc vs amnesia44khz.mpc after lowpass 6.5khz
ABA 9/11 propability of guessing 0.1%

Anyway, these were definitely very much harder than without lowpass, because most of the revealing spreaded "buzz" burst noise in the 44khz mpc's problem section was gone. But still the "buzz" bursts left were slightly more "monoish" with the original and 48khz version which allowed to distinguishing the 44khz.


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Frank Klemm
post Feb 23 2003, 21:11
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QUOTE (guruboolez @ Feb 23 2003 - 08:34 PM)
IMO, 1.95z6 is worse than 1.15r. Dropout, at the beginning, increased again. Confirmed with CoolEdit :

mpc 1.95z6

Bitrate of 1.15r and 1.95z6?

Also check other samples like Jump.wav.
It doesn't help when
- only amnesia is enhanced
- bitrate increases for all music pieces, also for those without any problems


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guruboolez
post Feb 23 2003, 21:20
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[quote=Frank Klemm,Feb 23 2003 - 09:11 PM][QUOTE=guruboolez,Feb 23 2003 - 08:34 PM]Bitrate of 1.15r and 1.95z6?[/quote]
I'm really confuse ; I tested 1.95z6 --standard (the worse) against 1.15r --insane. 240 kb versus 166 kb.
I'm sorry (again : this is the second time it happens). unsure.gif

The good news, is that --insane better than --standard is (it was admitted, but maybe not tested wink.gif)



I will try jump later, this night. I need to clean my hard disk first mad.gif
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Frank Klemm
post Feb 24 2003, 00:53
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QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Feb 22 2003 - 05:06 AM)
Autechre -- Chiastic Slide -- 03 Tewe.wav
Unknown Artist -- Unknown Title -- 08 Track08.wav
Arcana -- Cantar de Procella -- 01 The Opening of the Wound.wav
Kraftwerk Ralf und Florian Kristallo.wav
ELEGIA -- SOUND WITHIN -- 06 rainfall....wav
C.J. Bolland -- Electronic Highway -- 07 Spoof.wav
Autechre Avil vapre Track01.wav
Autechre Anvil VapreTrack04.wav
Unknown Artist -- Unknown Title -- 09 Track09.wav
Front 242 -- Angels Versus Animals -- 02 Angel (Wipe Out).wav
Front 242 -- 06-21-03-11 Up Evil -- 13 Religion (Pussy Whipped mix).wav
Lenny Dee & Ralphie Dee - I Control Your Body.wav
Tellurian - Speed of Light.wav
Annihilator - S.D.R (Bam Bam).wav
Front 242 -- Angels Versus Animals -- 07 Der Verfluchte Engel.wav
Electric Universe -- Stardiver -- 08 Astral Voyage (Edit).wav
Prototype 909 - understand.wav
Electric Universe -- Stardiver -- 11 Alien Encounter (Part 1).wav
Unkknown Artist -- Unknown Title -- 08 Clavecin.wav
Air Liquide - sun progress.wav
The Irresistible Force - space is the place.wav
Mimir -- Mimir -- 06 December 3. 1989.wav
Mimir -- Mimir -- 07 December 2. 1989.wav
Electric Universe -- One Love -- 08 Visiting Venus.wav
Kldnge - No Future.wav
The Future Sound of London -- Omnipresence.wav
Beaumont Hannant -- Teqtonik.wav
Autechre -- Doctrine.wav
The Chekists -- Global (remix).wav
Sun Electric -- Sarotti.wav
AFX (aka Aphex Twin) -- .215061 (Analogue Bubblebath 3).wav
Difficult Child -- Fear.wav
Age -- Eine fremde Lebensform.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 03 Koram … sept temps.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 09 Pu et Mu.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 11 Sur un bateau.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 20 Depuis les t‚nŠbres lointaines.wav
Takashi Harada -- Palme Symphony -- 22 Nous y avons cru.wav
Depeche Mode -- Some Great Reward -- 03 People are people.wav
Depeche Mode -- Some Great Reward -- 07 Master and servant.wav
Depeche Mode -- Some Great Reward -- 08 If you want.wav

Is there any chance to get your audio collection? Most of the titles and groups are completely
unknown to me (although recommended).

The only interpreter I know is Autechre with the album Amber.


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Secret Chief
post Feb 24 2003, 01:24
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QUOTE (Frank Klemm @ Feb 23 2003 - 12:11 PM)
Bitrate of 1.15r and 1.95z6?

Also check other samples like Jump.wav.
It doesn't help when
 - only amnesia is enhanced
 - bitrate increases for all music pieces, also for those without any problems

I have a decent amount of music similar to amnesia; could you roughly explain what types of sounds you think are causing the problem, helping me limit my search? Is the problem caused by sharp transients (which I thought would be unlikely given MPC's short time resolution) or distortion or parts with a gapper applied to them, or...?

I tried a track with sharp transients and lots of distortion that yanked 200kbps average out of MPC --standard (and 250kbps out of --alt-preset standard), but was unable to ABX any differences between it and the original when using 1.95z6, which I have to say I'm very impressed about.

This post has been edited by Secret Chief: Feb 24 2003, 01:26
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salpro
post Feb 25 2003, 01:51
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hi, i don't think to have as much expertise as the ones writing in this topic
i am just asking a questions about preparing trouble samples to hear artefacts easily: you can try it with sound editor (wablb, kooledit)
normalize the volume of one audio channel to max (100%)
the other channel has its volume gain lowered to say 10% or less
encode the file then the artefacts are really easy to find

is this hard test fair to test the encoders ?
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KikeG
post Feb 25 2003, 10:19
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Usually, only real-world music or sounds are used to verify psychoacoustic encoders performance, since it's the real target of them.
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Pio2001
post Feb 26 2003, 01:21
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I found another sample of the same kind. The effect is the same, but less strong. But this time, it is ripped straight from a CD without resampling nor normalisation. And lame APS performs poorly on it.

ABX MPC 1.14 --quality 5 --xlevel : 8/8
ABX Lame 3.90.2 --alt-preset standard : 8/8

The effect is the same : helicopter sound with MPC (twitwitwitwi), and noise with APS (shfwshhs).

Unfortunately, the sample is 1.6 MB, my old ISP doesn't allow uploading more than 1 MB, and the online account of my new ISP is not working.
Can someone PM me somewhere to upload ?

The sample is Transwave -- The rezwalker (london live remix), 0:00 to 0:26

I didn't expect it to be hard. It came out of 5 tracks I chose to test the audiophileness of MPC on silent CD playback, with the computer turned off :

Idir -- A Vava Inouva
Depeche Mode -- If you want
Rebecca Pidgeon -- Granmother
Transwave -- The Rezwalker (london live remix)
Lisa Gerrard and Pieter Bourke -- Sacrifice

The other ones sound OK.
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Pio2001
post Feb 26 2003, 01:28
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Wow ! Just listened to Amnesia again... seems my listening is very accurate tonigh... Transwave is far less distorded. Too bad it's time to go to bed ohmy.gif
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JohnV
post Feb 26 2003, 01:44
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Can you try the 48khz amnesia, which sounds better than the 44khz version. Also, use the latest mppenc 1.15r.


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Pio2001
post Feb 26 2003, 01:46
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OK, but not tonight, sorry

I'll try to get the time to before the week end
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JohnV
post Feb 26 2003, 01:53
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I hope that Frank can come up with his magic to solve this the best possible way. I know he has been in contact with Andree B, and they have a pretty good idea what the problem is. The difficult thing is, how to implement the solution in best possible way.


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