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"I'm not creating a flamewar.", Oh wait.. yes I am...
MadiZone
post Feb 12 2003, 18:57
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"Hope is comforting, it allows us to accept fate however tragic it might be."
Lady Yunalesca, Final Fantasy X, PlayStation2.
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Dibrom
post Feb 13 2003, 00:21
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QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 12 2003 - 10:57 AM)
"Hope is comforting, it allows us to accept fate however tragic it might be."
Lady Yunalesca, Final Fantasy X, PlayStation2.

"- No Spamming or Trolling on the boards, this includes useless posts, trying to only increase post count or trying to deliberately create a flame war."
Dibrom, Forum Rules, Hydrogenaudio.org.
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MadiZone
post Feb 13 2003, 14:21
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QUOTE (Dibrom @ Feb 13 2003 - 12:21 AM)
QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 12 2003 - 10:57 AM)
"Hope is comforting, it allows us to accept fate however tragic it might be."
Lady Yunalesca, Final Fantasy X, PlayStation2.

"- No Spamming or Trolling on the boards, this includes useless posts, trying to only increase post count or trying to deliberately create a flame war."
Dibrom, Forum Rules, Hydrogenaudio.org.

I'm not creating a flamewar.
Of course, if reality can be offending I'm sorry.
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NumLOCK
post Feb 13 2003, 15:08
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QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 13 2003 - 02:21 PM)
I'm not creating a flamewar.
Of course, if reality can be offending I'm sorry.

There's no problem with reality. Trouble is, you were spreading bullshit.

The spread of mp3 as a major lossy audio format had nothing to do with fate.. it was simply logic, which means the people's and companies' choice, based on mp3's capabilities, wide platform support, prices, and marketing. It's not the best format, but it was good enough to succeed, as soon as it came out.

If you think the success of huge standards like cd-audio, or companies such as microsoft, etc. is due to fate, then I'm afraid you didn't understand how this world works. People like you tend to adopt and support stuff just because it's "cool", and by looking at the number of geeks who adpoted it before you - well, but what's the point, if you don't even try and understand how things work ?

If people want something (MPC support) and work hard for it, they'll have it - sooner or later. But if you do nothing, the future won't be shaped according to YOUR vision.

This post has been edited by NumLOCK: Feb 13 2003, 15:17


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ChristianHJW
post Feb 13 2003, 15:29
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QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 13 2003 - 01:21 PM)
I'm not creating a flamewar.
Of course, if reality can be offending I'm sorry.

I am still not sure what you wanted to say with your statement above ?

Did you reply to my post about 'main hope is on FLAC' for capturing with a lossless audio codec into matroska container ? Rest assured this is far from being fiction anymore. Not more to say for the time being, i dont want to have another 'vaporware' discussion, there had been enough of them in the past already. Those people following our project know its actual status. Those who dont should stop making speculations, but try to inform themselves by reading ( e.g. here : http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video....mcf.general/175 ), or better be quiet .


If your comment was related to hardware support in MPC, well, dont forget all major japanese hardware manufacturers have announced to support Linux derivates in their next generation units. At least then the iRiver people and all other manufacturers of those portable players should quickly change their minds about making votes to see what else they could do to further improve their profit by selling firmware upgrades, or they'll be gone quicker as anybody can imagine ....


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MadiZone
post Feb 13 2003, 16:11
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QUOTE
The spread of mp3 as a major lossy audio format had nothing to do with fate..  it was simply logic, which means the people's and companies' choice, based on mp3's capabilities, wide platform support, prices, and marketing. It's not the best format, but it was good enough to succeed, as soon as it came out.


Don't forget MP3 was the first of it's kind. If WMA, MP3 and OGG was all released in 1996, I'm quite sure MP3 wouldn't be the format sitting in every electronic device today.

QUOTE
If you think the success of huge standards like cd-audio, or companies such as microsoft, etc. is due to fate, then I'm afraid you didn't understand how this world works.


CD-audio was a hit because it was miles ahead of regular tapes, and it was marketed and distributed by major worldwide commercial companies. Is MPC miles ahead of MP3 (which is perceived as CD-quality to the majority)

QUOTE
People like you tend to adopt and support stuff just because it's "cool", and by looking at the number of geeks who adpoted it before you - well, but what's the point, if you don't even try and understand how things work?


Wrong. You're assuming things. I was among the first to use MP3, and made my first encodings back in 1996 or 1997 with L3enc.exe in DOS mode. I switched to Ogg Vorbis in may 2002.
Also, people will have a hard time seeing MPC as "cool" since they consider 128k MP3 to be CD-quality, so for them MPC just equals to increasing the filesize 30% and restricting the rips to only be played in Windows using WinAmp (or Foobar if they know about it).

QUOTE
If people want something (MPC support) and work hard for it, they'll have it - sooner or later.

How are you working except joining together on HydrogenAudio and praising the audioformat?
Don't expect Joe Average to launch AOL 6.0 and go to www.hydrogenaudio.org ...

The pessimist complains about the wind,
The optimist expects it to change,
The realist adjust the sails.

Now I see a lot of optimists, but I'm curious what you do to change the wind?
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NumLOCK
post Feb 13 2003, 16:36
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QUOTE
Don't forget MP3 was the first of it's kind. If WMA, MP3 and OGG was all released in 1996, I'm quite sure MP3 wouldn't be the format sitting in every electronic device today.

About mp3 - here's what I said: "it was good enough to succeed, as soon as it came out". That also meant it came out soon.
About the other formats - I'm not sure that an early WMA appearance would have done much good to the users.. see the DVD+ vs DVD- waste, for example.

QUOTE
CD-audio was a hit because it was miles ahead of regular tapes, and it was marketed and distributed by major worldwide commercial companies.

Well, yeah. I don't see where fate would kick in.

QUOTE
Also, people will have a hard time seeing MPC as "cool" since they consider 128k MP3 to be CD-quality, so for them MPC just equals to increasing the filesize 30% and restricting the rips to only be played in Windows using WinAmp (or Foobar if they know about it).

Incorrect !!! Those people listen to mp3's using small computer speakers, and to cd's using their home stereo. Even if they can't tell 128kbps mp3 from a cd on their pc, they perfectly know that it's much better to listen to a CD on good equipment - and they don't listen to music on the computer, when they do have the original cd.

So if you offer them true CD quality of 8 cd's on a single one, that they can play on the home stereo, they'll like it.

QUOTE
How are you working except joining together on HydrogenAudio and praising the audioformat?

Well in the MPC realm, not much... but at least, I'm not wasting my time spreading controversy.

QUOTE
Don't expect Joe Average to launch AOL 6.0 and go to www.hydrogenaudio.org ...

You'd be surprised. I know many people who read HA.org, and can't rip a cd nor install an OS.

QUOTE
The pessimist complains about the wind,
The optimist expects it to change,
The realist adjust the sails.

How boring. Hope it enlightens your life though.

QUOTE
Now I see a lot of optimists, but I'm curious what you do to change the wind?

Plenty of things already. Yet nothing in audio for now, that's all.

This post has been edited by NumLOCK: Feb 13 2003, 16:44


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Moonwatcher
post Feb 13 2003, 16:38
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I see alot of wind blowing in here...


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NumLOCK
post Feb 13 2003, 16:40
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QUOTE (Moonwatcher @ Feb 13 2003 - 04:38 PM)
I see alot of wind blowing in here...

Indeed. We're trying to wipe doubts away laugh.gif


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MadiZone
post Feb 13 2003, 19:05
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QUOTE
About the other formats - I'm not sure that an early WMA appearance would have done much good to the users.. see the DVD+ vs DVD- waste, for example.


Where's the waste? It's a war. DVD-R was first, and to me it looks like the winner. I know 4 people with a DVD burner. Three of them has a Pioneer drive (DVD-R), and last one a SuperDrive (made by Pioneer - DVD-R).

QUOTE
Well, yeah. I don't see where fate would kick in.

Fate was Yunalescas word. In this case, reality would probably be a suitable replacement.

It looks like some members here thinks that 50 people sending an e-mail to iRivers support-center or a bunch of petitions with 100-200 signatures is going to change MPC support upside down. Furthermore, a few people believes that other companies use iRiver as guidance, so if iRiver supports MPC, all others will follow. Some people think that the reason why people don't use MPC, is because they don't know about it. Yes and no. I know about MPC, but do I use it?

QUOTE
Incorrect !!! Those people listen to mp3's using small computer speakers, and to cd's using their home stereo. Even if they can't tell 128kbps mp3 from a cd on their pc, they perfectly know that it's much better to listen to a CD on good equipment - and they don't listen to music on the computer, when they do have the original cd.

I see a lot of DVD-players and homestereoes supporting MP3. I haven't heard anyone but the HydrogenAudio people complain about MP3-files on homestereos.
My brother has a $3000 homestereo set. He rips in Ogg Vorbis, 96 kbit.
But of course, we're just a deaf family with flawed hearing - no?

QUOTE
Well in the MPC realm, not much... but at least, I'm not wasting my time spreading controversy.

If people want something (MPC support) and work hard for it, they'll have it - sooner or later. But if you do nothing, the future won't be shaped according to YOUR vision. wacko.gif

QUOTE
How boring. Hope it enlightens your life though.

It does.

QUOTE
Plenty of things already. Yet nothing in audio for now, that's all.

??

This post has been edited by MadiZone: Feb 13 2003, 19:28
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Secret Chief
post Feb 13 2003, 19:18
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As soon as all of the patent issues are cleared up, I can't see too many obstacles facing MPC hardware support. I doubt a decoder requires substantial memory space, and I know that it doesn't require much processing power. You can't tell me that the average portable player made in 2005 will not have the technical capabilities to play MPC along with AAC, Vorbis, and MP3. All that's needed is a reasonable amount of consumer demand.

And that demand exists, it's just not focused. Ask a DJ sometime about MP3. They hate it, because it smears the absolutely vital sharp transients that are a cornerstone of techno. Most of them don't know about LAME, or alt-presets, or anything like that. They just know that MP3 sucks and turns a hyperactive hihat track into a tinny swoosh noise. They'd be more than happy to use something that promised +99% transparency, and they'd pay money for it.
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MadiZone
post Feb 13 2003, 19:21
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I DJ doesn't want MPC, he wants lossless I think.
And I'm not sure that DJ is the core target group of the new latest iPod or Rio... wink.gif

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NumLOCK
post Feb 13 2003, 20:00
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QUOTE
Where's the waste? It's a war. DVD-R was first, and to me it looks like the winner. I know 4 people with a DVD burner. Three of them has a Pioneer drive (DVD-R), and last one a SuperDrive (made by Pioneer - DVD-R).

Well, I do use DVD-R and think it's the best and most compatible write-once DVD format. So what ? Most set-top burners are +RW, because of the nice rewriting capabilities (DVD-RW is a joke). We might need DVD-RAM too. Result: There's no single burner which takes them all. Bad for the consumer, I suppose.

The Panasonic LF-521 does -R/RW and -RAM, but lacks +R/+RW. The new Sony does it all, but not -RAM. See ?

QUOTE
Fate was Yunalescas word. In this case, reality would probably be a suitable replacement.

Hardly a synonym.

QUOTE
It looks like some members here thinks that 50 people sending an e-mail to iRivers support-center or a bunch of petitions with 100-200 signatures is going to change MPC support upside down.

I don't recall mentioning it - but anyway, signing a suggestion for mpc support can't be bad. The codec is ready, working great - so a 1st step won't hurt. Btw, if you know so much better, I guess you're welcome to enlighten people here.

QUOTE
Furthermore, a few people believes that other companies use iRiver as guidance, so if iRiver supports MPC, all others will follow.

It would encourage others to follow, yes. You don't agree with that ?

QUOTE
Some people think that the reason why people don't use MPC, is because they don't know about it. Yes and no. I know about MPC, but do I use it?

Can't tell. It depends on your needs, I suppose. At least you'd have one less argument for not using it, now that it's open-source.

QUOTE
I see a lot of DVD-players and homestereoes supporting MP3. I haven't heard anyone but the HydrogenAudio people complain about MP3-files on homestereos.

laugh.gif Well, I was talking with a friend yesterday, and he asked me why the mp3 cd's played on his new dvd player, sounded like crap...
Turned out they were 160kbps Blade encoded, and he didn't like the sound at all. Now, for 160kbps you can have transparent sound, which is the reason why I think better formats are to be added on newer devices. That's all.

By the way, I simply don't enjoy the lack of sharpness of the mp3 format, from several cd's which are mostly gothic Metal, punk etc. I'm talking about relaxed listening, which doesn't prevent easy 25/25 ABX tests without training. So, yes, there's a significant difference which is present all the time (even if you cannot always hear it). This simple fact pushes me away from transform codecs, how about that.

QUOTE
My brother has a $3000 homestereo set. He rips in Ogg Vorbis, 96 kbit.

96 kbps Vorbis, does that shock you ? There will probably be more audible distorsion caused by his loudspeakers, than audible distorsion caused by the Vorbis codec. So no, I'm not shocked at all.

QUOTE
But of course, we're just a deaf family with flawed hearing - no?

I won't bother answering this one.

QUOTE
??

Well I have some interest in audio coding, but also in 3d routines, cryptography, digital image processing, compression etc.
One can't do everything I suppose smile.gif

This post has been edited by NumLOCK: Feb 13 2003, 20:08


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ak
post Feb 14 2003, 10:10
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QUOTE (ChristianHJW @ Feb 13 2003 - 04:29 PM)
I am still not sure what you wanted to say with your statement above ?

'Long live the fish' was the real message, I assume.
Although I don't see the reason for vorbis supporterz to be offended everytime non-vorbis topic is being discussed.
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torok
post Feb 14 2003, 20:20
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QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 13 2003 - 07:11 AM)
Don't forget MP3 was the first of it's kind. If WMA, MP3 and OGG was all released in 1996, I'm quite sure MP3 wouldn't be the format sitting in every electronic device today.

So what's sitting in your VCR? Is it VHS or BETA? (Or the VCR you had before you tossed it in the dumpster.)


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Dibrom
post Feb 14 2003, 22:37
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QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 13 2003 - 06:21 AM)
QUOTE (Dibrom @ Feb 13 2003 - 12:21 AM)
QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 12 2003 - 10:57 AM)
"Hope is comforting, it allows us to accept fate however tragic it might be."
Lady Yunalesca, Final Fantasy X, PlayStation2.

"- No Spamming or Trolling on the boards, this includes useless posts, trying to only increase post count or trying to deliberately create a flame war."
Dibrom, Forum Rules, Hydrogenaudio.org.

I'm not creating a flamewar.
Of course, if reality can be offending I'm sorry.

No, what's offending is your spamming (yes, your post was useless spam), your blatant disregard for the forum rules (this is not the first time), and your general attitude (as seen on this board, and on others).
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JohnV
post Feb 14 2003, 23:48
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QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 13 2003 - 08:05 PM)
It looks like some members here thinks that 50 people sending an e-mail to iRivers support-center or a bunch of petitions with 100-200 signatures is going to change MPC support upside down. Furthermore, a few people believes that other companies use iRiver as guidance, so if iRiver supports MPC, all others will follow.

What do you care what MPC users do anyway? Personally, I find it unlikely to see proprietary hardware support by portable manufacturers before SV8 is out and patent issues have been cleared.

It may even be that portable manufacturers like iRiver never support MPC, but it still doesn't mean that there won't ever be portable support. There's already fixed point MPC decoder for ARMv4, so support for many PDAs is available.
Heck, it may be possible to play MPC already with iPOD, while it's still atm. impossible for Vorbis. (check this out).

QUOTE
My brother has a $3000 homestereo set. He rips in Ogg Vorbis, 96 kbit.
But of course, we're just a deaf family with flawed hearing - no?
Well, if you think 96kbps Vorbis is even near hi-fi quality, you definitely are very badly deaf.


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LordSyl
post Feb 15 2003, 02:36
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QUOTE (Secret Chief @ Feb 13 2003 - 10:18 AM)
I doubt a decoder requires substantial memory space, and I know that it doesn't require much processing power.  You can't tell me that the average portable player made in 2005 will not have the technical capabilities to play MPC along with AAC, Vorbis, and MP3.  All that's needed is a reasonable amount of consumer demand.  

More than not needing "much" processing power, I'd say it doesn't need "a crap" of a processing power...my Duron 800 decodes, with the last decoder version, at around 90x or more...so, with those silly fast calculations, it only seems to need about 10-12 MHz to decode real-time (on a computer). With 90Mhz overpowered CD players like iRiver's you can decode it almost before reading the CD track... ph34r.gif .

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Moonwatcher
post Feb 15 2003, 18:42
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" The iPod was a present from Leach's girlfriend, who forbade him from taking it apart and "ruining it." So Leach had to figure out its inner workings by examining the operating system code, line by line. "

thank heaven for women biggrin.gif


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MadiZone
post Feb 15 2003, 21:41
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QUOTE
Well, if you think 96kbps Vorbis is even near hi-fi quality, you definitely are very badly deaf.

Now you just need the "I see deaf people" quote in your signature. smile.gif
Seriously, John. You have to respect that not all people are as picky as you, and I haven't met (met = in reality) one person who could tell a 96 kbps Vorbis rip from the CD.
I usually can't tell a 80 kbit Vorbis rip from the CD.
By saying me and my brother are deaf when we can't seperate a 96 kbps from an uncompressed CD recording, you're basicly saying 95%+ of the worlds electronic consumers are deaf...
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JohnV
post Feb 15 2003, 21:46
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My "pickiness" starts above 160kbps average, pretty much for any codec. Vorbis default is 112kbps nominal -q3. Based on comments what I have read all around and read in #vorbis and vorbis mailinglist, I don't agree at all with your estimation that 95%+ of vorbis users can't distinguish 96kbps nominal from CD.


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MadiZone
post Feb 15 2003, 21:57
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QUOTE (Dibrom @ Feb 14 2003 - 10:37 PM)
QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 13 2003 - 06:21 AM)
QUOTE (Dibrom @ Feb 13 2003 - 12:21 AM)
QUOTE (MadiZone @ Feb 12 2003 - 10:57 AM)
"Hope is comforting, it allows us to accept fate however tragic it might be."
Lady Yunalesca, Final Fantasy X, PlayStation2.

"- No Spamming or Trolling on the boards, this includes useless posts, trying to only increase post count or trying to deliberately create a flame war."
Dibrom, Forum Rules, Hydrogenaudio.org.

I'm not creating a flamewar.
Of course, if reality can be offending I'm sorry.

No, what's offending is your spamming (yes, your post was useless spam), your blatant disregard for the forum rules (this is not the first time), and your general attitude (as seen on this board, and on others).

If you were wise, you would counter-attack my statement and come up with realistic arguments on WHY iRiver should support the musepack format. It's best to be realistic in hopes and ambisions.
Who would want to support the Musepack format? Who could find a commercial benefit in supporting and marketing their product with Musepack support?
Everyone or iRiver isn't the answer, and writing an e-mail saying "me and my three buddies are gonna buy X-player if it supports MPC which is a cool high quality codec" isn't the road ahead either. Yay, four additional units sold. Listen, that's not gonna justify the expenses and engineering in introducing Musepack support.
Also, stop bothering the customer support - your e-mails go into the trashbin after being replied to with a "Sorry Sir, we do not plan to support x-codec anytime soon". I think you should try to find the boss of the product development staff, then contact him/her, and tell them, that you've researched the subject, and you know say 800.000 homestereos which is rated "Audiophile Quality" by some magazine, a certification-group or some creditable source was sold in 2002. Then maybe if you have some consumer demographics from a research company, that says that maybe 64% of the people who rate them self as "concerned" or "very concerned" about the quality of their audioequipment also own a computer. Figures like these should work.
I don't know where to find statistics like these. But I think solid arranged evidence of a consumergroup would work much better than "I would like mpc support" mails.

Think about it. I'm not against Musepack at all, but I don't believe naive threads and e-mail to various customer supports around the globe will do the trick.

Again - I repeat - I'm not creating a flamewar, and I'm disappointed to see that you think so.

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MadiZone
post Feb 15 2003, 22:01
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QUOTE (JohnV @ Feb 15 2003 - 09:46 PM)
My "pickiness" starts above 160kbps average, pretty much for any codec. Vorbis default is 112kbps nominal -q3. Based on comments what I have read all around and read in #vorbis and vorbis mailinglist, I don't agree at all with your estimation that 95%+ of vorbis users can't distinguish 96kbps nominal from CD.

QUOTE
95%+ of vorbis users can't distinguish 96kbps nominal from CD.

1) This was a quick estimation. It could as well be 80%, 85% or 90%.
2) I was not talking about vorbis users. By saying vorbis users you are already estimating about a very specific and quite small consumer segment. I was talking about the general electronic consumers. This basicly includes anyone who owns a device capable of playing music in this subject. A discman, an MP3 player, a taperecorder, anything. In fact a huge segment of the western world. I mean, even my grandmother who is 74 years old, she owns a CD-player.

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JohnV
post Feb 15 2003, 22:32
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I wouldn't say that 95%+ of consumers can't distinguish 96kbps Vorbis from CD, simply because most just don't care whether they distinguish or not. Maybe 50-60% of all consumers or even more could if they tried or cared enough.


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bluewer than blu...
post Feb 15 2003, 22:43
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Excuse me but I just don't get why a first post like that (from MadiZone) has recieved answers regarding audio issues. As far as my limited intelligence allows me, he was obviously trying to start a thread regarding the sophism that lies into the Final Fantasy series and I totally agree with his excellent observation. You should also try to play Chrono Trigger for even more witty statements... tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif
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