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Most 'true' way to de-emphasize CD image, Remove pre-emphasis - possible and best ways?
EvilMax
post Aug 2 2008, 13:46
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Hello!

Have a question related to de-emphasizing of images of audio CDs mastered with pre-emphasis. What I've already found on this topic:

1. Using Waves Q10 plugin. But it seems to me that equalizer plugin is not the best way to achieve originally mastered sound.
2. Using foobar2000 convolver with Waves_De-Emphasis pulses. Don't know anythig good/bad for this way.

So does anybody knows what way is 'true' to de-emphasize wave file?

PS: I know that using EAC or K3b to burn CD and delegate de-emphasizing to CD player will solve issue. But for some reasons I need to have images on my PC and ability to play them or several tracks on players that don't support 'pre' flag.
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Porcus
post Oct 28 2010, 01:09
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FWIW, I checked this with multiple lossless encoders. No surprises in terms of relative performance -- relative filesizes about what you would expect in a 16-bit test. So all compress about equally (relative to their assumed quality) bad -- they all returned file sizes greater than the original 16-bit WAV.

I.e.: With the de-emphasis algorithm and a single flag indicating application of it, then even WAV -- without any compression whatsoever -- would outperform today's state-of-the-art lossless algorithms (on this fairly hardrock-ish test corpus, that is). That's the state of today's art wink.gif


Procedure:
The 16-bit files were converted to 24 bits de-emphed by SoX. Each album converted to one single WAV file by foobar2000. Test corpus with 24-bit file sizes below, total 11 286 552 576 bytes in the file (11 286 517 144 according to foobar2k, strange since it is not divisible by 3 ...).
Then each wav file was compressed with a range of encoders (Monkey's and TAK by their GUI applications, ofr.exe by CLI, while Foobar handled FLAC (1.2.1) and WavPack -- the latter unbearably slow, taking hours.) In order of filesize:

7 761 846 272 bytes - flac -8
7 672 954 880 bytes - WavPack high, x5
7 629 369 344 bytes - Monkey's extrahigh
7 582 380 032 bytes - TAK -p4
7 533 199 360 bytes - ofr extranew

For comparison, the original 16 bit signal approximated by removing 1/3
11 286 552 576 bytes*2/3= 7 524 368 384 bytes (file size)
11 286 517 144 bytes*2/3= 7 524 344 763 (minus a third. Audio size)


Test corpus with 24-bit wav filesizes:


. 779 289 380 Backstreet Girls - Boogie Till You Puke
. 607 080 644 Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath [Castle orig
. 679 535 180 Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath, Vol. 4 [Castle orig
. 635 569 244 Black Sabbath - Master of Reality [Castle orig
. 704 629 844 Carnivore - Retaliation
1 099 159 028 Ebba Grön - Ebba Grön, 1978-1982
. 762 788 924 In Slaughter Natives - Enter Now the World
. 814 826 924 Leonard Bernstein - West Side Story
. 938 924 324 Lifelover - Konkurs
. 992 003 084 MZ.412 - Burning the Temple of God
. 933 198 380 MZ.412 - In Nomine Dei Nostri Satanas Luciferi Excelsi
. 803 773 700 Ordo Equilibrio - Reaping the Fallen...The First Harvest
. 864 977 444 Raison d'Etre - Prospectus I
. 670 761 044 Roger Waters - The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking


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Posts in this topic
- EvilMax   Most 'true' way to de-emphasize CD image   Aug 2 2008, 13:46
- - pdq   Are they still making CDs with pre-emphasis, or ar...   Aug 2 2008, 14:46
|- - EvilMax   QUOTE (pdq @ Aug 2 2008, 16:46) Are they ...   Aug 2 2008, 15:38
||- - M   QUOTE (EvilMax @ Aug 2 2008, 10:38) Egor,...   Aug 2 2008, 15:51
|||- - EvilMax   QUOTE (M @ Aug 2 2008, 17:51) QUOTE (Evil...   Aug 2 2008, 16:22
||- - Egor   QUOTE (EvilMax @ Aug 2 2008, 21:38) Egor,...   Aug 2 2008, 19:08
||- - EvilMax   It is all very interesting, thank you for informat...   Aug 2 2008, 19:32
||- - Egor   QUOTE (EvilMax @ Aug 3 2008, 01:32) Inter...   Aug 2 2008, 19:41
||- - EvilMax   QUOTE (Egor @ Aug 2 2008, 21:41) QUOTE (E...   Aug 2 2008, 20:04
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (pdq @ Aug 2 2008, 14:46) Are they ...   Feb 24 2010, 08:05
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Porcus @ Feb 24 2010, 09:05) QUOTE...   Apr 29 2012, 16:28
- - Egor   You can de-emphasize using sox (a command line pro...   Aug 2 2008, 15:17
- - sbooth   CD de-emphasis was originally designed to be done ...   Aug 2 2008, 16:37
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (sbooth @ Aug 2 2008, 16:37) If you...   Feb 24 2010, 08:15
- - Surfi   Using Waves Q10 too. Tried Sox before but did hear...   Aug 2 2008, 16:57
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Surfi @ Aug 2 2008, 08:57) Using W...   Aug 2 2008, 18:47
|- - Surfi   QUOTE (greynol @ Aug 2 2008, 19:47) How i...   Aug 3 2008, 16:17
|- - bandpass   QUOTE (Surfi @ Aug 3 2008, 15:17) Either ...   Aug 8 2008, 18:55
|- - markanini   QUOTE (bandpass @ Aug 8 2008, 18:55) QUOT...   Aug 10 2008, 02:58
|- - Surfi   QUOTE (markanini @ Aug 10 2008, 03:58) th...   Aug 10 2008, 11:00
- - benski   Yes, de-emphasis is meant to be done in the analog...   Aug 2 2008, 18:38
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 2 2008, 09:38) Yes, d...   Aug 2 2008, 19:00
- - M   According to the changelog, the deemphasis filter ...   Aug 2 2008, 20:03
- - Sebastian Mares   Did anyone check how well iTunes deemphasizes CDs?   Aug 3 2008, 11:08
- - markanini   I have tried Sox and WaveEmph and comparing the sp...   Aug 3 2008, 12:02
|- - tot   sox with --plot option and deemph will plot the fi...   Aug 3 2008, 15:40
- - Aquares   Tested with Denon Audio Technical CD (1984), Track...   Nov 13 2009, 20:15
|- - Wombat   Never saw someone offering such measurements, than...   Nov 14 2009, 02:19
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Wombat @ Nov 14 2009, 02:19) even ...   Nov 14 2009, 15:29
|- - Aquares   QUOTE (Wombat @ Nov 14 2009, 03:19) One t...   Nov 15 2009, 22:07
- - krabapple   Measured difference of 0.2 dB is not bloody likely...   Nov 15 2009, 06:07
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (krabapple @ Nov 15 2009, 06:07) Me...   Nov 15 2009, 12:19
- - Wombat   I tried one more thing. Seems really like the cre...   Nov 16 2009, 17:23
- - pdq   ANY operation on the data other than scaling by ex...   Feb 24 2010, 12:51
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (pdq @ Feb 24 2010, 12:51) ANY oper...   Feb 24 2010, 19:42
|- - DVDdoug   QUOTE (Porcus @ Feb 24 2010, 10:42) QUOTE...   Feb 24 2010, 20:48
- - pdq   It should make little difference to a lossy encode...   Feb 24 2010, 20:27
- - greynol   So long as sox does the internal math at a higher ...   Feb 24 2010, 20:57
|- - Porcus   @ DVDdoug and pdq: The argument on the number of ...   Feb 24 2010, 21:34
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Porcus @ Feb 24 2010, 12:34) Well ...   Feb 24 2010, 21:48
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Porcus @ Feb 24 2010, 16:34) @ DVD...   Feb 24 2010, 21:50
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (pdq @ Feb 24 2010, 21:50) Besides,...   Feb 24 2010, 22:16
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (Porcus @ Feb 24 2010, 22:34) @ DVD...   Oct 26 2010, 09:58
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (googlebot @ Oct 26 2010, 10:58) Th...   Oct 26 2010, 12:14
|- - googlebot   As said, it's already all in post #36. Digit...   Oct 26 2010, 13:45
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (googlebot @ Oct 26 2010, 14:45) As...   Oct 26 2010, 14:25
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (knutinh @ Oct 26 2010, 15:25) This...   Oct 26 2010, 15:08
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (googlebot @ Oct 26 2010, 16:08) QU...   Oct 27 2010, 10:14
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 27 2010, 11:14) (Are ...   Oct 27 2010, 11:04
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (googlebot @ Oct 27 2010, 11:04) Ro...   Oct 27 2010, 15:35
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 27 2010, 16:35) go...   Oct 27 2010, 17:33
- - Wombat   For the ones that want a VST solution to do some d...   Oct 11 2010, 16:56
- - Wombat   Well, not the most interesting thing but i wanted ...   Oct 26 2010, 01:57
- - knutinh   Now we are getting somewhere. So I should have sta...   Oct 26 2010, 16:08
- - 2Bdecided   I think it's far simpler than you think. Cons...   Oct 26 2010, 16:42
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 26 2010, 17:42) 2....   Oct 26 2010, 18:32
- - 2Bdecided   Yes, but the design is such that it works "be...   Oct 27 2010, 10:19
- - knutinh   I guess that whatever per-channel correlation is i...   Oct 27 2010, 12:38
|- - googlebot   Why exactly 8?   Oct 27 2010, 12:42
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (googlebot @ Oct 27 2010, 13:42) Wh...   Oct 27 2010, 15:42
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (knutinh @ Oct 27 2010, 16:42) QUOT...   Oct 27 2010, 20:33
- - Porcus   FWIW, I checked this with multiple lossless encode...   Oct 28 2010, 01:09
|- - Porcus   For reference: 7 761 846 272 bytes: flac -8 (24 b...   Oct 28 2010, 01:17
- - Bullit   I haven't found much info on emphasis. From wh...   Oct 28 2010, 03:45
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Bullit @ Oct 28 2010, 04:45) I hav...   Oct 28 2010, 10:05
|- - Bullit   QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 28 2010, 10:05) QUOTE...   Nov 1 2010, 04:09
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (Bullit @ Oct 31 2010, 19:09) QUOTE...   Nov 1 2010, 05:18
- - greynol   Have you tried our wiki? It's generally the f...   Nov 1 2010, 05:10
- - Bullit   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 1 2010, 05:10) Have ...   Nov 1 2010, 19:22
- - lvqcl   [misread]   Nov 1 2010, 19:36
- - greynol   QUOTE (Bullit @ Nov 1 2010, 11:22) I look...   Nov 1 2010, 19:43


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