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Comparison : 24bit/192KHz/stereo FLAC vs. APE, How can it be ?
foorious
post Jul 25 2008, 16:55
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Hi everybody,

I've just made a small comparison between Monkey's Audio 3.99 (Extra High Compression) and FLAC 1.21 (Compression level 8 ), using 24bit/192KHz/stereo files (the files were generated from a vinyl rip).

Of course I expected APE to perform slightly better than FLAC, like it usually does for 16bit/44KHz/stereo files (2-3%, maybe even 5%)... but I didn't really expect this ! blink.gif



Take a look at all the file sizes : we're talking about 20% difference here ! The total file size is 1,53 Go for APE vs. 1,88 Go for FLAC.

So I don't understand. I'm a genuine FLAC enthusiast (all my files are FLAC), but... how can it be ? Is there something wrong here ? Can we do something to improve all the FLAC file sizes ?

Thanks in advance for your explanation. smile.gif
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foorious
post Jul 31 2008, 17:49
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Just a simple question : do TAK, APE and Optimfrog support multichannel ?
I'm asking this because otherwise they would be quite useless for most 24/192 files sad.gif : the files for my initial example were stereo, but most 24bit files are also multichannel AFAIK (e.g. DVD-A)...

This reference wiki article says TAK, APE and Optimfrog do not support multichannel (maybe it needs to be updated ?), which would make WavPack the only serious alternative to FLAC for multichannel files : http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...less_comparison

BTW I'd really love if Josh Coalson would come across this thread. Hey, if TBeck has been able to fine-tune TAK and gain 10% in only a few hours time, maybe Josh could do something similar with FLAC ? biggrin.gif

EDIT : PM sent to Josh to inform him about this topic.

This post has been edited by foorious: Jul 31 2008, 17:55
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GeSomeone
post Aug 11 2008, 22:56
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QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 31 2008, 18:49) *
I'm asking this because otherwise they would be quite useless for most 24/192 files sad.gif : the files for my initial example were stereo, but most 24bit files are also multichannel AFAIK (e.g. DVD-A)...
I'd like to make a correction here. On DVD-Audio only stereo tracks (groups) can be 24bit/192kHz, the max for multi channel is 24bit/96kHz but 24/48 is not uncommon.
The 192kHz sample rate is rather rare (on DVD-A) because it takes up a lot of space and often the (digital) sources were in a lower bit rate.

@TBeck, Bryant or whoelse needs 1 or 2 (classical) 192kHz files for a test, have a look on the Lyndberg Lyd (2L) HiRes Download - test bench page.


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TBeck
post Aug 14 2008, 12:44
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QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Aug 11 2008, 22:56) *
@TBeck, Bryant or whoelse needs 1 or 2 (classical) 192kHz files for a test, have a look on the Lyndberg Lyd (2L) HiRes Download - test bench page.

Thank you!

Especially the multi channel files will be useful for me.

Unfortunately the 192 KHz files are bad examples... I've performed a frequency analysis with cooledit and it looks quite strange: Above about 48 KHz there seems to be a lot of noise. Possibly this is due to the noise shaping mentioned at the bottom of the download page: "DSD signals further require a noise shaping process to sustain the dynamic range of 120 dB within the primary bandwidth of 20 Hz - 20 kHz but that causes the noise spectrum to increase above 22 kHz." But i am not an expert in this area.

I am sure those files will be very FLAC-friendly: Because of the high pitched noise they will not show it's inefficiency when dealing with low passed alike files.
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TBeck
post Aug 14 2008, 18:54
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QUOTE (TBeck @ Aug 14 2008, 12:44) *
I am sure those files will be very FLAC-friendly: Because of the high pitched noise they will not show it's inefficiency when dealing with low passed alike files.

I've got time to test it:

CODE
FLAC 1.2.1
  -8               54.65
  
Monkey's Audio 3.99
  Extra            53.34
  
TAK 2.0 (Developer version)
  -p3m             53.51

Exactly what i expected.

But what are such 192 KHz files good for? Twice the space requirements than 96 KHz recordings only to add noise above 48 KHz? unsure.gif
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GeSomeone
post Aug 15 2008, 13:19
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QUOTE (TBeck @ Aug 14 2008, 19:54) *
But what are such 192 KHz files good for? Twice the space requirements than 96 KHz recordings only to add noise above 48 KHz? unsure.gif
I forgot that L2 likes to record in (what they call) DXD, which is like DSD but twice the sample four times the data rate of DSD.
As I said I didn't bother with the 192kHz but the 96kHz 5.1 at least sounded pretty good.

BTW could there be a -A function that could improve compression of 192kHz files?

This post has been edited by GeSomeone: Aug 19 2008, 13:30
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Posts in this topic
- foorious   Comparison : 24bit/192KHz/stereo FLAC vs. APE   Jul 25 2008, 16:55
- - viniciusferrao   MonkeyAudio do not support 192kHz! :confused: ...   Jul 26 2008, 00:47
|- - Curtor   QUOTE (viniciusferrao @ Jul 25 2008, 17:4...   Jul 26 2008, 02:38
|- - pawelq   QUOTE (Curtor @ Jul 25 2008, 21:38) From ...   Jul 28 2008, 15:25
- - Axon   My understanding is that the lowest 8-12 bits of a...   Jul 26 2008, 00:51
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 26 2008, 00:51) My unde...   Jul 27 2008, 17:22
- - TBeck   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 25 2008, 16:55) Tak...   Jul 27 2008, 04:48
- - foorious   Thanks everyone for all your interesting answers. ...   Jul 27 2008, 16:38
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 27 2008, 16:38) Oh,...   Jul 27 2008, 18:36
||- - Nick.C   QUOTE (Dynamic @ Jul 27 2008, 18:36) In c...   Jul 27 2008, 20:30
||- - GeSomeone   QUOTE (Nick.C @ Jul 27 2008, 21:30) 24/44...   Jul 28 2008, 09:17
||- - DARcode   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Jul 28 2008, 10:17) QU...   Jul 28 2008, 11:42
||- - TBeck   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Jul 28 2008, 09:17) If...   Jul 28 2008, 18:04
|||- - bryant   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jul 28 2008, 10:04) QUOTE ...   Jul 29 2008, 17:17
|||- - TBeck   QUOTE (bryant @ Jul 29 2008, 17:17) Thank...   Jul 29 2008, 20:01
|||- - bryant   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jul 29 2008, 12:01) QUOTE ...   Jul 30 2008, 05:33
|||- - TBeck   QUOTE (bryant @ Jul 30 2008, 05:33) So, f...   Jul 31 2008, 13:01
||- - Dynamic   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Jul 28 2008, 09:17) Se...   Jul 28 2008, 19:46
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 27 2008, 16:38) Oh,...   Jul 27 2008, 18:53
- - Enig123   I think "anything" here just means no pa...   Jul 28 2008, 15:34
- - pdq   If you treat the data as simply a series of values...   Jul 28 2008, 16:23
- - SebastianG   This is in response to the original question. FLA...   Jul 28 2008, 18:36
- - TBeck   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jul 29 2008, 20:01) Seems ...   Jul 29 2008, 21:49
- - vpa   Could you test TTA too? It's very quick but gi...   Jul 30 2008, 18:39
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (vpa @ Jul 30 2008, 18:39) Could yo...   Jul 30 2008, 19:28
- - foorious   Just a simple question : do TAK, APE and Optimfrog...   Jul 31 2008, 17:49
|- - vpa   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 31 2008, 18:49) BTW...   Jul 31 2008, 18:13
|- - GeSomeone   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 31 2008, 18:49) I...   Aug 11 2008, 22:56
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Aug 11 2008, 22:56) @T...   Aug 14 2008, 12:44
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (TBeck @ Aug 14 2008, 12:44) I am s...   Aug 14 2008, 18:54
|- - GeSomeone   QUOTE (TBeck @ Aug 14 2008, 19:54) But wh...   Aug 15 2008, 13:19
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Aug 15 2008, 13:19) QU...   Aug 15 2008, 15:19
- - foorious   Yes GeSomeone, no problem, my question was only ab...   Aug 13 2008, 11:51
- - jcoalson   sorry, been traveling a lot lately... it's har...   Aug 13 2008, 21:51
- - foorious   Hi josh, thanks for joining in. I understand your...   Aug 13 2008, 23:53
- - SebastianG   I actually tested some LP coefficient quantization...   Aug 14 2008, 09:24
- - SebastianG   "[...] but if someone has time to try out seb...   Aug 16 2008, 11:12
- - foorious   Are there any upcoming developments on this matter...   Sep 17 2008, 22:58
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (foorious @ Sep 17 2008, 16:58) Are...   Sep 24 2008, 06:33
- - hidn   i encode my cd. flac compression is close to anoth...   Sep 24 2008, 05:58
- - foorious   Thanks Josh. I just hope you'll keep an eye on...   Sep 26 2008, 00:55
- - foorious   Hi there, are there any news on this matter ? It...   Mar 25 2009, 00:34
- - ktf   I just noticed the last SVN Flake is on par with M...   May 19 2009, 18:36


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