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Comparison : 24bit/192KHz/stereo FLAC vs. APE, How can it be ?
foorious
post Jul 25 2008, 16:55
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Hi everybody,

I've just made a small comparison between Monkey's Audio 3.99 (Extra High Compression) and FLAC 1.21 (Compression level 8 ), using 24bit/192KHz/stereo files (the files were generated from a vinyl rip).

Of course I expected APE to perform slightly better than FLAC, like it usually does for 16bit/44KHz/stereo files (2-3%, maybe even 5%)... but I didn't really expect this ! blink.gif



Take a look at all the file sizes : we're talking about 20% difference here ! The total file size is 1,53 Go for APE vs. 1,88 Go for FLAC.

So I don't understand. I'm a genuine FLAC enthusiast (all my files are FLAC), but... how can it be ? Is there something wrong here ? Can we do something to improve all the FLAC file sizes ?

Thanks in advance for your explanation. smile.gif
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foorious
post Jul 27 2008, 16:38
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Thanks everyone for all your interesting answers.

Well, so it looks that FLAC isn't really well-suited at the moment for low-passed files, thus for 96 and 192 KHz files. Considering the results, I think it will be better for me to stick with FLAC for 16/44 files, but to switch to another format for 24/96 and 24/192 files. I don't like the idea of handling two different lossless formats in my collection, but the gap is huge, and I don't see any reason for losing almost 350 MB of disk space for a single album.

I secretly hope Josh Coalson has some ideas in store for improving FLAC's handling of HD audio files. We'll see !

Oh, one last question : in your opinion, is this issue related only to the frequency (96, 192 KHz) or also to the bits per sample ? In other words, would FLAC perform much better with 24bit/48KHz files than it does with 24bit/192KHz files ?

This post has been edited by foorious: Jul 27 2008, 16:41
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Dynamic
post Jul 27 2008, 18:36
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QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 27 2008, 16:38) *
Oh, one last question : in your opinion, is this issue related only to the frequency (96, 192 KHz) or also to the bits per sample ? In other words, would FLAC perform much better with 24bit/48KHz files than it does with 24bit/192KHz files ?


In conjunction with NickC's results, perhaps resampling (fb2k/Resampler) to 44.1 kHz and/or 48 kHz in the Convert DSP while retaining 24-bit output would answer that, and offer comparison between 16/44.1 and 24/44.1 when processed through lossyWAV (though it isn't certain the 16/44.1 is the same as a straight downconversion from the 24/96 files)
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Nick.C
post Jul 27 2008, 20:30
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QUOTE (Dynamic @ Jul 27 2008, 18:36) *
In conjunction with NickC's results, perhaps resampling (fb2k/Resampler) to 44.1 kHz and/or 48 kHz in the Convert DSP while retaining 24-bit output would answer that, and offer comparison between 16/44.1 and 24/44.1 when processed through lossyWAV (though it isn't certain the 16/44.1 is the same as a straight downconversion from the 24/96 files)
Taking onboard your comment regarding whether the 16/44.1 is a straight downconversion of the 24/96, I used the SSRC dsp plugin (ultra mode) in foobar2000 to resample the 24/96 version down to 48kHz and 44.1kHz and got the following:

24/96 lossless FLAC -5: 2954 kbit/s (926MiB); lossyWAV --standard|FLAC -5: 787 kbit/s (246MiB);
24/48 lossless FLAC -5: 1598 kbit/s (501MiB); lossyWAV --standard|FLAC -5: 517 kbit/s (162MiB);
24/44.1 lossless FLAC -5: 1489 kbit/s (466MiB); lossyWAV --standard|FLAC -5: 498 kbit/s (156MiB);

Also, I changed the bitdepth in foobar2000 and dithered the 24/96 version to 16/96 and got:

16/96 lossless FLAC -5: 1421 kbit/s (445MiB); lossyWAV --standard|FLAC -5: 776 kbit/s (243MiB);

This post has been edited by Nick.C: Jul 27 2008, 20:40


--------------------
lossyWAV -q X -a 4 --feedback 4| FLAC -8 ~= 320kbps
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Posts in this topic
- foorious   Comparison : 24bit/192KHz/stereo FLAC vs. APE   Jul 25 2008, 16:55
- - viniciusferrao   MonkeyAudio do not support 192kHz! :confused: ...   Jul 26 2008, 00:47
|- - Curtor   QUOTE (viniciusferrao @ Jul 25 2008, 17:4...   Jul 26 2008, 02:38
|- - pawelq   QUOTE (Curtor @ Jul 25 2008, 21:38) From ...   Jul 28 2008, 15:25
- - Axon   My understanding is that the lowest 8-12 bits of a...   Jul 26 2008, 00:51
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 26 2008, 00:51) My unde...   Jul 27 2008, 17:22
- - TBeck   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 25 2008, 16:55) Tak...   Jul 27 2008, 04:48
- - foorious   Thanks everyone for all your interesting answers. ...   Jul 27 2008, 16:38
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 27 2008, 16:38) Oh,...   Jul 27 2008, 18:36
||- - Nick.C   QUOTE (Dynamic @ Jul 27 2008, 18:36) In c...   Jul 27 2008, 20:30
||- - GeSomeone   QUOTE (Nick.C @ Jul 27 2008, 21:30) 24/44...   Jul 28 2008, 09:17
||- - DARcode   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Jul 28 2008, 10:17) QU...   Jul 28 2008, 11:42
||- - TBeck   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Jul 28 2008, 09:17) If...   Jul 28 2008, 18:04
|||- - bryant   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jul 28 2008, 10:04) QUOTE ...   Jul 29 2008, 17:17
|||- - TBeck   QUOTE (bryant @ Jul 29 2008, 17:17) Thank...   Jul 29 2008, 20:01
|||- - bryant   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jul 29 2008, 12:01) QUOTE ...   Jul 30 2008, 05:33
|||- - TBeck   QUOTE (bryant @ Jul 30 2008, 05:33) So, f...   Jul 31 2008, 13:01
||- - Dynamic   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Jul 28 2008, 09:17) Se...   Jul 28 2008, 19:46
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 27 2008, 16:38) Oh,...   Jul 27 2008, 18:53
- - Enig123   I think "anything" here just means no pa...   Jul 28 2008, 15:34
- - pdq   If you treat the data as simply a series of values...   Jul 28 2008, 16:23
- - SebastianG   This is in response to the original question. FLA...   Jul 28 2008, 18:36
- - TBeck   QUOTE (TBeck @ Jul 29 2008, 20:01) Seems ...   Jul 29 2008, 21:49
- - vpa   Could you test TTA too? It's very quick but gi...   Jul 30 2008, 18:39
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (vpa @ Jul 30 2008, 18:39) Could yo...   Jul 30 2008, 19:28
- - foorious   Just a simple question : do TAK, APE and Optimfrog...   Jul 31 2008, 17:49
|- - vpa   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 31 2008, 18:49) BTW...   Jul 31 2008, 18:13
|- - GeSomeone   QUOTE (foorious @ Jul 31 2008, 18:49) I...   Aug 11 2008, 22:56
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Aug 11 2008, 22:56) @T...   Aug 14 2008, 12:44
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (TBeck @ Aug 14 2008, 12:44) I am s...   Aug 14 2008, 18:54
|- - GeSomeone   QUOTE (TBeck @ Aug 14 2008, 19:54) But wh...   Aug 15 2008, 13:19
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Aug 15 2008, 13:19) QU...   Aug 15 2008, 15:19
- - foorious   Yes GeSomeone, no problem, my question was only ab...   Aug 13 2008, 11:51
- - jcoalson   sorry, been traveling a lot lately... it's har...   Aug 13 2008, 21:51
- - foorious   Hi josh, thanks for joining in. I understand your...   Aug 13 2008, 23:53
- - SebastianG   I actually tested some LP coefficient quantization...   Aug 14 2008, 09:24
- - SebastianG   "[...] but if someone has time to try out seb...   Aug 16 2008, 11:12
- - foorious   Are there any upcoming developments on this matter...   Sep 17 2008, 22:58
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (foorious @ Sep 17 2008, 16:58) Are...   Sep 24 2008, 06:33
- - hidn   i encode my cd. flac compression is close to anoth...   Sep 24 2008, 05:58
- - foorious   Thanks Josh. I just hope you'll keep an eye on...   Sep 26 2008, 00:55
- - foorious   Hi there, are there any news on this matter ? It...   Mar 25 2009, 00:34
- - ktf   I just noticed the last SVN Flake is on par with M...   May 19 2009, 18:36


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