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How to prepare wav for encoding?
MusicLover
post Jan 29 2003, 06:10
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Hi!
I want to ask you such a question:
What should we do with ripped from a CD .wav file before to encode it with lossless or lossy codec?
I like the program called Cool Edit Pro 2. It is very handy... Should we do something with it to a wav file? I want, say, encode it to mpc... Maybe cut off the frequencies <40 and >22 000? Maybe smth else? Analyze it, and get rid of clipping? Or maybe smth more? Or it is not necessary, because the codec does all the mechanic work by own strength? So is it necessary to prepare the file for encoding?
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torok
post Jan 29 2003, 06:18
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Lucky for you there is absolutly nothing for you to do to a wav before you encode it other than just to check if it was a good rip or not. Anything that needs to be done, get's done.


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SNYder
post Jan 29 2003, 06:31
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As long as everything was ripped ok, the waves files should be exact copies of the cd tracks. And since most all CD's are professionaly mastered, there is nothing that is needed to be done to the wave files before encoding.

In the rare case you encounter some clipping while encoding an mpc file, mpcenc will tell you how to remedy the situation by adding the "--scale XX.XX" command. (X being whatever number it suggests)

It is rare this will happen, but when it does, it is easy to fix.

So, no. Do nothing with the wave files. But if you make your own songs or have songs by friends which were not professionaly mastered, just make sure their peak amplitude is not 100%. If it is, normalize it to something like 99 or 98%. I personaly do my songs at 98%, and there is absolutely no audible difference in loudness. This is something everyone should do even if they aren't planning on encoding the songs they make.

This post has been edited by SNYder: Jan 29 2003, 06:35
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budgie
post Jan 29 2003, 16:25
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Post deleted by me laugh.gif

This post has been edited by budgie: Jan 29 2003, 16:42
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NumLOCK
post Jan 29 2003, 16:53
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QUOTE (budgie @ Jan 29 2003 - 04:25 PM)
Post deleted by me  laugh.gif

No no, budgie is right. ! Changing the volume should not be done in the 16-bit WAV files, but rather at the codec level (--scale command) or after converting the WAV to 24-bit. By the way, MPC supports 24- and 32-bit input if I'm not mistaken.


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LCtheDJ
post Jan 29 2003, 20:36
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It seems that opinions really are like belly buttons; everybody has one.

Here's mine: If you want to make changes to your wav files, do it. If other people don't like what you've done, they don't have to take your files.

For myself, I want all my tracks sounding the same loudness. I use WaveGain on the wavs before encoding to ape and ogg. You might also want to use WavTrim to remove silence at the beginning and end of the wav files before encoding. By doing this on the wav before encoding, I get better accuracy (not limited to 1.5 dB increments on the volume) and the change IS permanent and the effect does not depend on a player having to support ReplayGain.

The resultant files are for my own use and they work great for my needs. Someone else may have different needs and will take a different course of action. I suggest you try out a few methods and "hear" which is to YOUR liking.


WaveGain:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jfe1205/others.html
http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/wavegain.htm

WavTrim:
http://www.logiccell.com/~mp3trim/

This post has been edited by LCtheDJ: Jan 29 2003, 20:40
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dgover2
post Jan 29 2003, 22:03
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QUOTE (SNYder @ Jan 28 2003 - 09:31 PM)
As long as everything was ripped ok, the waves files should be exact copies of the cd tracks.  And since most all CD's are professionaly mastered, there is nothing that is needed to be done to the wave files before encoding.



It is rare this will happen, but when it does, it is easy to fix.

So, no. Do nothing with the wave files.  But if you make your own songs or have songs by friends which were not professionaly mastered, just make sure their peak amplitude is not 100%.  If it is, normalize it to something like 99 or 98%.  I personaly do my songs at 98%, and there is absolutely no audible difference in loudness.  This is something everyone should do even if they aren't planning on encoding the songs they make.

QUOTE
In the rare case you encounter some clipping while encoding an mpc file, mpcenc will tell you how to remedy the situation by adding the "--scale XX.XX" command.  (X being whatever number it suggests)


I suppose if I'm ripping/encoding with EAC I won't get to see this message? Or maybe it's logged somewhere?
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Gregory Abbey
post Jan 30 2003, 01:01
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QUOTE (LCtheDJ @ Jan 29 2003 - 02:36 PM)
If you want to make changes to your wav files, do it.  If other people don't like what you've done, they don't have to take your files.

For myself, I want all my tracks sounding the same loudness.  I use WaveGain on the wavs before encoding to ape and ogg.  You might also want to use WavTrim to remove silence at the beginning and end of the wav files before encoding.  By doing this on the wav before encoding, I get better accuracy (not limited to 1.5 dB increments on the volume) and the change IS permanent and the effect does not depend on a player having to support ReplayGain.

The resultant files are for my own use and they work great for my needs.  Someone else may have different needs and will take a different course of action.  I suggest you try out a few methods and "hear" which is to YOUR liking.


This would seem like a good idea.. and I'd keep the WAV files flac'd for archival purposes. In some brief tests.. the WavGain app reduced the WAV files by a similar factor as did ReplayGain on the encoded MPCs.


Question..

If the WAV file is clipped.. that means the peaks are missing.. so how does the program know by what factor the whole file should be reduced (or increased)?


Edit:

Oh.. it's the 89 dB reference level.. isn't that it??

This post has been edited by Gregory Abbey: Jan 30 2003, 03:28
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MusicLover
post Jan 30 2003, 16:51
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QUOTE (LCtheDJ @ Jan 29 2003 - 11:36 AM)
It seems that opinions really are like belly buttons; everybody has one.

Here's mine:  If you want to make changes to your wav files, do it.  If other people don't like what you've done, they don't have to take your files.

For myself, I want all my tracks sounding the same loudness.  I use WaveGain on the wavs before encoding to ape and ogg.  You might also want to use WavTrim to remove silence at the beginning and end of the wav files before encoding.  By doing this on the wav before encoding, I get better accuracy (not limited to 1.5 dB increments on the volume) and the change IS permanent and the effect does not depend on a player having to support ReplayGain.

The resultant files are for my own use and they work great for my needs.  Someone else may have different needs and will take a different course of action.  I suggest you try out a few methods and "hear" which is to YOUR liking.


WaveGain:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jfe1205/others.html
http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/wavegain.htm

WavTrim:
http://www.logiccell.com/~mp3trim/

By the way, does anyone know, is it possible to make wav/mp3trim work softer (i.e. to leave more silence at the end and at the beginning, but still to cut it off? (And I thought EAC is able to cut off the silence somehow? Am I right?)
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LCtheDJ
post Jan 30 2003, 17:18
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WavTrim 2.0 can be set to remove only digital silence (values of zero) or it can be set to remove analog silence where you set the threshold level so sounds below that are removed.

I recommend trimming a copy of the file; if too much is trimmed off, you can make another copy and try again. After you get the result you like, then delete the untrimmed copy.

WavTrim file:
http://www.logiccell.com/~mp3trim/WavTrim.zip

WavTrim site:
http://www.logiccell.com/~mp3trim/

WavTrim is free.
WavTrim PRO is $31.95 US.
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john33
post Jan 30 2003, 18:00
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QUOTE (Gregory Abbey @ Jan 30 2003 - 12:01 AM)
This would seem like a good idea.. and I'd keep the WAV files flac'd for archival purposes. In some brief tests.. the WavGain app reduced the WAV files by a similar factor as did ReplayGain on the encoded MPCs.

It would, it uses the same algorithm.

QUOTE (Gregory Abbey @ Jan 30 2003 - 12:01 AM)
Question..

If the WAV file is clipped.. that means the peaks are missing.. so how does the program know by what factor the whole file should be reduced (or increased)?

WaveGain doesn't (as yet) employ any kind of 'clip restoration' tool, so that's not in the equation.

QUOTE (Gregory Abbey @ Jan 30 2003 - 12:01 AM)
Edit:

Oh.. it's the 89 dB reference level.. isn't that it??

Sure is. wink.gif


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grbmusic
post Jan 30 2003, 19:11
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I am use Sound Forge 6.0d for remove the digital an analog silence of the wav files, and wavGain for replaygained the wav files before to compress to mp3 or mpc. I'm made this for personal use and professional use in the FM radio station where I work. WavTrim only remove digital silence and a lot of music files have analog silence too, that is the reason to I use a audio editor like Sounf Forge, the results is excellent for me. biggrin.gif


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sony666
post Mar 13 2003, 01:17
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QUOTE (LCtheDJ @ Jan 29 2003 - 08:36 PM)
For myself, I want all my tracks sounding the same loudness.  I use WaveGain on the wavs before encoding to ape and ogg.  You might also want to use WavTrim to remove silence at the beginning and end of the wav files before encoding.  By doing this on the wav before encoding, I get better accuracy (not limited to 1.5 dB increments on the volume) and the change IS permanent and the effect does not depend on a player having to support ReplayGain.

I'm doing just the same now... since xiph.org doesnt approve of the current replaygain implementation in ogg for hardware players etc, (and various players using different tags for mp3/mpc rg values) I will try to replaygain the original wavs in the least harmful way possible and do not use any tags at all.

Edit: oops I revived an old thread, sorry tongue.gif I found it by search...

This post has been edited by sony666: Mar 13 2003, 01:18
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budgie
post Mar 13 2003, 11:37
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QUOTE (grbmusic @ Jan 30 2003 - 10:11 AM)
I am use Sound Forge 6.0d for remove the digital an analog silence of the wav files, and wavGain for replaygained the wav files before to compress to mp3 or mpc. I'm made this for personal use and professional use in the FM radio station where I work. WavTrim only remove digital silence and a lot of music files have analog silence too, that is the reason to I  use a audio editor like Sounf Forge, the results is excellent for me. biggrin.gif

No need to to do this (using Sound Forge for removing silence); Feurio! does the job perfectly during ripping, you can spare a lot of time.
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timcupery
post Mar 13 2003, 11:58
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EAC can delete silence at the beginning and end of tracks (in 588-sample increments). Just check "delete leading and trailing silent blocks" under the Extraction tab of EAC options. Apparently Feurio does this as well. Mp3trim can also do the trick (by frames) after encoding.

I second (third?) LCtheDJ on the use of wavegain prior to encoding. As I mentioned in the thread on "clipping getting worst", this is especially important when you expect or know that the cd has peaks close to 100%. Codecs aren't exactly precise (lossy codecs that is) and waves with peaks at 32764 or whatever 100% is will usually get their tops chopped off when encoding. This doesn't help clipping that takes place on the cd, but it ensures that clipping isn't introduced in the encoding process itself (which can't be recovered by using mp3gain after encoding).
And for the record, the default gain in WaveGain is 89 dB.


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