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[OFFENSIVE] trolling example
xterm
post Jan 26 2003, 23:32
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The problem with that is that MPC has a dirty hack which Gains treble in encodes, so when you have an audio which does not need extra treble manipulation, you're going to get inferior output most of the time.

This is the primary reason why MPC / Musepack is not open source. Frank Klemm knows the shortcomings so he's really trying to ride this out.

It was demonstrated time and time again that MPC fails horribly in listening tests when high-end audio equipment is concerned. The treble issue is a huge one, aside from others. One notable example of this would be the reluctancy of developers to address the fact that many EQs spot the shortcomings, hence revealing the degraded sound quality, and while listening to the encoded audio in a computer, more specifically Winamp, it's recommended to have the EQ or any other DSPs turned OFF.

If you want to rip your music and enjoy it, look no further than LAME 3.90.x or 3.92, with --alt-preset extreme parameters.

Sure, MPC takes a little bit faster to encode, but then again, this quote by Benjamin Franklin sums it up:

"Those who would sacrifice Audio Quality and Portability for Speed, deserve neither."


Good luck with your encoding tongue.gif
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Frank Bicking
post Jan 26 2003, 23:38
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Is there any evidence for your statements?

QUOTE
This is the primary reason why MPC / Musepack is not open source. Frank Klemm knows the shortcomings so he's really trying to ride this out.

It is open source.

QUOTE
It was demonstrated time and time again that MPC fails horribly in listening tests when high-end audio equipment is concerned.

Any evidence here? ABX test results?

QUOTE
...more specifically Winamp, it's recommended to have the EQ or any other DSPs turned OFF.

The winamp equalizer cuts off all frequencies above 16 kHz, that's why it's recommended to turn it of.
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xterm
post Jan 26 2003, 23:47
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QUOTE (Frank_Bicking @ Jan 26 2003 - 02:38 PM)
QUOTE
This is the primary reason why MPC / Musepack is not open source. Frank Klemm knows the shortcomings so he's really trying to ride this out.


It is open source.

CODE
Directory of C:\mppenc

<DIR>          .
<DIR>          ..
               188 INFO
            73,728 list.exe
            61,440 lpac.exe
            86,016 lpaccodec.dll
           143,360 mac.exe
            28,139 MANUAL.TXT
           167,936 mppenc.exe
           139,776 optimfrog.exe
             6,039 optimfrog.txt
           102,400 shorten.exe
            69,632 szip.exe



don't see the source. Link please.
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Frank Bicking
post Jan 27 2003, 00:19
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QUOTE (xterm @ Jan 26 2003 - 11:47 PM)
Link please.

From Frank Klemm's site:

- mppdec 1.1 source
- mppenc 1.93 (SV8) source

From Case's site:

- mppdec 1.93 (SV8) source

What about your other statements?

I just checked your other posts, are some some kind of troll?!

This post has been edited by Frank_Bicking: Jan 27 2003, 00:27
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NumLOCK
post Jan 27 2003, 00:25
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QUOTE (xterm @ Jan 26 2003 - 11:32 PM)
The problem with that is that MPC has a dirty hack which Gains treble in encodes, so when you have an audio which does not need extra treble manipulation, you're going to get inferior output most of the time.

This is a complete, unsubstantiated, trolling load of crap.

I just performed an FFT on a MPC decoded sound in matlab to verify your claims, and it turns out that's complete bullshit. The frequency response after a Musepack encode/decode cycle is absolutely neutral.

Poor man, recommending MP3 instead of MPC... I can ABX many 320kbps LAME MP3's, while the exact same samples encoded in MPC --standard @ half the filesize have nothing wrong ! Gentlemen, don't listen to this man.


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tigre
post Jan 27 2003, 00:26
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QUOTE (Frank_Bicking @ Jan 26 2003 - 03:19 PM)
What about your other statements?

Maybe the explanation is somewhere here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=11&t=5845
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=17&t=4179


--------------------
Let's suppose that rain washes out a picnic. Who is feeling negative? The rain? Or YOU? What's causing the negative feeling? The rain or your reaction? - Anthony De Mello
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xterm
post Jan 27 2003, 00:40
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The other topic was a joke. As you can see right now, you guys are not exactly my friends, because of my extreme hatred of MPC format. But the truth must be told.

Other statements?

Sure. No problem.

ABX is unreliable. You're trying to determine the audio quality with software? Don't make me laugh. It will never be able to detect artifacts which completely ruin the audio. Case in point, look no further than ambient records. MPC is the worst for minimalistic/ambient/organic audio because you're able to tell by listening to them.

Try to encode Pole with both LAME 3.9x (excluding the obvious new 3.93.x) with --ape switches, then compare that with MPC --xtreme (because many of you claim that MPC --xtreme is the equivalent of --alt-preset extreme). Which is not the case.

I've seen people encode with --braindead and then claim the files are smaller and it sounds better than --alt-preset standard. Oh please.

I'll take my time next week (if time permits) and study the source code. I'll be looking for stuff like virtual low noise amplifiers and noise filtering to present some evidence that MPC is in fact a flawed codec built upon MP2 technology.

That's all for now.

This post has been edited by xterm: Jan 27 2003, 00:42
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Frank Bicking
post Jan 27 2003, 00:57
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QUOTE
ABX is unreliable. You're trying to determine the audio quality with software? Don't make me laugh. It will never be able to detect artifacts which completely ruin the audio.

It's not the software that's listening, it's the person. The software just offers a way to do make blind comparisons.

This post has been edited by Frank_Bicking: Jan 27 2003, 01:00
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Guest_SK1_*
post Jan 27 2003, 01:01
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QUOTE (xterm @ Jan 26 2003 - 11:40 PM)
The other topic was a joke. As you can see right now, you guys are not exactly my friends, because of my extreme hatred of MPC format. But the truth must be told.

Other statements?

Sure. No problem.

ABX is unreliable. You're trying to determine the audio quality with software? Don't make me laugh. It will never be able to detect artifacts which completely ruin the audio. Case in point, look no further than ambient records. MPC is the worst for minimalistic/ambient/organic audio because you're able to tell by listening to them.

Try to encode Pole with both LAME 3.9x (excluding the obvious new 3.93.x) with --ape switches, then compare that with MPC --xtreme (because many of you claim that MPC --xtreme is the equivalent of --alt-preset extreme). Which is not the case.

I've seen people encode with --braindead and then claim the files are smaller and it sounds better than --alt-preset standard. Oh please.

I'll take my time next week (if time permits) and study the source code. I'll be looking for stuff like virtual low noise amplifiers and noise filtering to present some evidence that MPC is in fact a flawed codec built upon MP2 technology.

That's all for now.

Oh my GOD!!!!!!
You are gonna get flamed to death!!!!

Damn it, all you said is a joke man! How can you be so ignorant when so much good true info is on this board?!!...

Let's sum up:
you have a deep hatered for MPC.
the "truth" must be told.
ABX is unreliable.
"MPC is the worst for minimalistic/ambient/organic audio because you're able to tell by listening to them."

Where do you come up with this stuff?!?!


"I've seen people encode with --braindead and then claim the files are smaller and it sounds better than --alt-preset standard. Oh please."

And , YES OH PLEASE, in many cases it can be true!!! Oh please... pfff....

Yeah study the source code smart man. It's very easy by the way.
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Guest_SK1_*
post Jan 27 2003, 01:17
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xterm this is the last time you'll be trolling here.
y'all can read the first and last warning here.
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floyd
post Jan 27 2003, 04:02
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QUOTE (xterm @ Jan 26 2003 - 04:32 PM)
It was demonstrated time and time again that MPC fails horribly in listening tests when high-end audio equipment is concerned.

huh.gif
possibly this is true in a alternate, fantasy dimension.
biggrin.gif
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Gregory Abbey
post Jan 27 2003, 04:06
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QUOTE (floyd @ Jan 26 2003 - 10:02 PM)
QUOTE (xterm @ Jan 26 2003 - 04:32 PM)
It was demonstrated time and time again that MPC fails horribly in listening tests when high-end audio equipment is concerned.

huh.gif
possibly this is true in a alternate, fantasy dimension.
biggrin.gif



It is best not to provide extra consumables in light of apparent trollism..
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KikeG
post Jan 27 2003, 09:07
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QUOTE (xterm @ Jan 26 2003 - 11:32 PM)
It was demonstrated time and time again that MPC fails horribly in listening tests when high-end audio equipment is concerned.

How funny... Where, in your dreams? rolleyes.gif
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Q!
post Jan 27 2003, 10:09
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QUOTE (xterm @ Jan 27 2003 - 02:40 AM)
ABX is unreliable. You're trying to determine the audio quality with software? Don't make me laugh. MPC is the worst for minimalistic/ambient/organic audio because you're able to tell by listening to them. [...] I'll take my time next week (if time permits) and study the source code. I'll be looking for stuff like virtual low noise amplifiers and noise filtering to present some evidence that MPC is in fact a flawed codec built upon MP2 technology.

hahahahahah! That was great.


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M
post Jan 27 2003, 10:30
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QUOTE (SK1 @ Jan 26 2003 - 07:01 PM)
Let's sum up:
you have a deep hatered for MPC.
the "truth" must be told.
ABX is unreliable.
"MPC is the worst for minimalistic/ambient/organic audio because you're able to tell by listening to them."

Where do you come up with this stuff?!?!

I suspect it originates in the same place as some other statements about ID3v2. rolleyes.gif

- M.

SK1: No, I am not trying to start a flame war... so please take this in the spirit in which it's intended. (See the little smiley?)
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Garf
post Jan 27 2003, 12:09
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Thread split
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Jan S.
post Jan 27 2003, 13:36
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xterm,
you have not posted a single non-trolling post to this board. I have notified the Dibrom and I'll be suprised if you are not removed very fast.
Have a nice day.
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JohnV
post Jan 27 2003, 14:03
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QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jan 27 2003 - 02:36 PM)
xterm,
you have not posted a single non-trolling post to this board. I have notified the Dibrom and I'll be suprised if you are not removed very fast.
Have a nice day.

You could have just checked his member profile.. I banned him about 5 hours ago already.. wink.gif


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Jan S.
post Jan 27 2003, 14:10
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QUOTE (JohnV @ Jan 27 2003 - 02:03 PM)
QUOTE (Jan S. @ Jan 27 2003 - 02:36 PM)
xterm,
you have not posted a single non-trolling post to this board. I have notified the Dibrom and I'll be suprised if you are not removed very fast.
Have a nice day.

You could have just checked his member profile.. I banned him about 5 hours ago already.. wink.gif

heh. I guess I could....I thought even the profile was removed.
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Gregory Abbey
post Jan 27 2003, 16:33
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06:47 8/27/2002



Trollish Activity


by Gregory Abbey



Trollish activity can take on many forms. There can be trollish posts and trollish replies. Generally a troll will disrupt activities in a forum either intentionally or even while not being aware of it. Trolls often roam Usenet groups and plant topics which are certain to cause disturbance.

The sure sign of a troll in action is if a big `stink' is raised when the situation could much better be handled off the `main line' using messenging for instance. Trollish activity is usually rampant in the lower strata of Internet discussion groups where members compete for moderator status.. and `kicking' activity is commonplace.




Effects of Trollish Activity


Trollish activity can have a highly negative effect in an online community. Trolls can wreak havoc causing disputes and drive members away who would otherwise post quality material. Trolls often have little of value to contribute and gain attention by disruption. Generally speaking.. trolls disrupt an online forum in various ways.. making it too annoying for individuals to post additional topics.




Trollish Posts


A trollish post is one which has the effect of causing a heated dispute between active members of a forum. An example of a trollish post would be the following: `when is a PATCH going to be released for MPC'.




Trollish Replies


A trollish reply is one which directly or indirectly starts an argument or dispute to a legitimate or on-topic post. Another example is a reply which will disrupt a post such that no further discussion can take place on that subject. Trolls often disrupt posts in this way.




General Troll Policy


The common policy for trolls in most communities is `DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS'. An ignored troll will often go away since the attention which they seek is not forthcoming. If trolls become sufficiently annoying.. many discussion forums and user-clients have `filters' or blocks on a user or topic basis.




Summary


Trolls can be very disruptive. It is up to the moderators to set and enforce policies on trollish activity. Users have filter capability which will limit the impact of trolls. The best way to handle trollishness is to simple not reply. This.. in addition to filters and a clear forum policy.. can control or eliminate the problem that is troll.





Note: sender acknowleges that this post itself may be trollish in nature. Comments or revisions to description and content on trollism are welcome.. post subject to change.


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