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Experimental release of Ghost/CELT 0.0.1
jmvalin
post Dec 9 2007, 11:53
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Xiph.org Speex developer


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Posts: 479
Joined: 21-August 02
Member No.: 3134



I've just made the first public release of some new *experimental* codec work I've been doing (part of the vague Ghost project) with help from Monty and Timothy. This is mainly intended for developers with DSP knowledge, not for doing anything useful with it (but it does encode and decode already). Also, the main idea is *not* to replace either Speex or Vorbis, but to code audio with really low latency -- currently 8 ms.

This is still very experimental and everything is still likely to change, including the exact goals. The algorithm is called (temporary name) Code-Excited Lapped Transform (CELT) and the main ideas are:
- Using an MDCT on very short frames
- Dividing into 15 bands and transmitting the energy for each band
- Using a pitch predictor (good for speech, but helps for music as well).
- The rest is coded using a unit-pulse codebook.
At this point, I'm still trying to figure out how to fit psychoacoustics into this.

CELT is based on a paper I submitted to ICASSP and which I'm hoping will be accepted so I can make it available to everyone. The only difference is that the ICASSP paper was based on the FFT (non critically sampled), whereas this version is based on the MDCT. One part that is already published though is Tim's explanation of the pulse codebook encoding.

The full source for CELT is available at: http://downloads.us.xiph.org/releases/celt/celt-0.0.1.tar.gz or through git at http://git.xiph.org/celt.git

I've put some music samples at 56 kbps CBR at http://people.xiph.org/~jm/comp_celt58cbr.wav with the original at http://people.xiph.org/~jm/comp44.wav . As you can hear, it definitely doesn't suck as much as Speex on music, but there's still room for improvement.

I'm open to interesting ideas, but don't bother complaining if it doesn't work or if it explodes in your face :-) Oh, and don't expect a final codec any time soon.

Have fun!
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Kef
post Jan 19 2008, 13:34
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QUOTE (jmvalin @ Dec 9 2007, 12:53) *
I've just made the first public release of some new *experimental* codec work I've been doing (part of the vague Ghost project) with help from Monty and Timothy. This is mainly intended for developers with DSP knowledge, not for doing anything useful with it (but it does encode and decode already). Also, the main idea is *not* to replace either Speex or Vorbis, but to code audio with really low latency -- currently 8 ms.

This is still very experimental and everything is still likely to change, including the exact goals. The algorithm is called (temporary name) Code-Excited Lapped Transform (CELT) and the main ideas are:
- Using an MDCT on very short frames
- Dividing into 15 bands and transmitting the energy for each band
- Using a pitch predictor (good for speech, but helps for music as well).
- The rest is coded using a unit-pulse codebook.
At this point, I'm still trying to figure out how to fit psychoacoustics into this.

CELT is based on a paper I submitted to ICASSP and which I'm hoping will be accepted so I can make it available to everyone. The only difference is that the ICASSP paper was based on the FFT (non critically sampled), whereas this version is based on the MDCT. One part that is already published though is Tim's explanation of the pulse codebook encoding.

The full source for CELT is available at: http://downloads.us.xiph.org/releases/celt/celt-0.0.1.tar.gz or through git at http://git.xiph.org/celt.git

I've put some music samples at 56 kbps CBR at http://people.xiph.org/~jm/comp_celt58cbr.wav with the original at http://people.xiph.org/~jm/comp44.wav . As you can hear, it definitely doesn't suck as much as Speex on music, but there's still room for improvement.

I'm open to interesting ideas, but don't bother complaining if it doesn't work or if it explodes in your face :-) Oh, and don't expect a final codec any time soon.

Have fun!


Cheers! It's nice to see there is activity from the xiph organization. I haven't tried your new codec yet but it is definitely the next thing on my to-do list. smile.gif

Now, I know this is not your "thing" or your responsibility but what about Vorbis and Theora? There's been very little activity on both fronts and as user and proponent of open source applications, I am deeply concerned to say at least. Vorbis is a great codec and my music collection is > 50% Vorbis right now (and the rest mp3) but the lack of activity, except the tunings of Ayomi, makes it very difficult to continue using it.
It's like Vorbis has been completely abandoned by xiph and I believe this is one of the reasons why people start to look for alternatives. I think this is at least one of the reasons why the Vorbis usage has dropped significantly the last two years here at HA.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=60145
http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lossydi7.png

Please at least make Ayomis tunings into the official branch at xiph. There are many companies which only use the official xiph released versions of Vorbis (like http://www.hbr1.com/ for example) and the latest tunings are from 2004... Not a good sign.

Not even to mention Theora, which was donated by On2 in 2002. It's now 2008 and it's still in beta stage and the quality is closer to mpeg-1 than mpeg-4...

Please don't take this criticism personally. It's not anyone's fault. But some development form xiph's side would be great. Instead of focusing on future codecs, why not maintain those you already have? SPEEX and FLAC are doing great. Vorbis and Theora, not so great. If I was a better programmer than I am sad.gif, I would not hesitate to join xiph and at least try to help out but the sad fact is I'm simply not up to the task, at least not now, and the only thing I can do is to write crap on internet forums as I have proved today. smile.gif

Anyway, thank you for your time and please forward my concerns to the xiph foundation. Thank you for your great work with Speex! wink.gif

/Kef
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jmvalin
post Feb 3 2008, 11:57
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Xiph.org Speex developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 479
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QUOTE (Kef @ Jan 19 2008, 21:34) *
Now, I know this is not your "thing" or your responsibility but what about Vorbis and Theora? There's been very little activity on both fronts and as user and proponent of open source applications, I am deeply concerned to say at least. Vorbis is a great codec and my music collection is > 50% Vorbis right now (and the rest mp3) but the lack of activity, except the tunings of Ayomi, makes it very difficult to continue using it.
It's like Vorbis has been completely abandoned by xiph and I believe this is one of the reasons why people start to look for alternatives. I think this is at least one of the reasons why the Vorbis usage has dropped significantly the last two years here at HA.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=60145
http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lossydi7.png


Actually, Theora has been under <b>very</b> active development in the past few months by Monty (see http://svn.xiph.org/branches/theora-thusnelda/). As for Vorbis, there are still some things to improve, but it's already quite mature. Keep in mind that it's not because you don't see anything that we're not doing anything. That being said, we do have a "resource" problem. All of us have day jobs, little of which involves Xiph codecs. If more people helped instead of complaining that nothing's done, we'd be moving much faster. BTW, not everything we do requires advanced signal processing knowledge. All the time we spend maintaining websites, fixing documentation, makefiles, ... is time not spent on the core codecs.
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johnsonlam
post Feb 21 2008, 06:18
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QUOTE (jmvalin @ Feb 3 2008, 18:57) *
Keep in mind that it's not because you don't see anything that we're not doing anything. That being said, we do have a "resource" problem. All of us have day jobs, little of which involves Xiph codecs.


Most of us here know you developers have a hard time working day and night, thank you very much.

All we can do is waiting patiently, hopefully a few lines of text one or twice a month can ease the pain of the people waiting endlessly.

Thanks again.


--------------------
Hong Kong - International Joke Center (after 1997-06-30)
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Posts in this topic
- jmvalin   Experimental release of Ghost/CELT 0.0.1   Dec 9 2007, 11:53
- - radorn   So this codec is not intended to eventually replac...   Dec 20 2007, 14:36
|- - Benjamin Lebsanft   QUOTE (radorn @ Dec 20 2007, 14:36) So th...   Dec 20 2007, 16:04
|- - jmvalin   QUOTE (radorn @ Dec 20 2007, 22:36) So th...   Dec 20 2007, 21:40
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Dec 20 2007, 21:40) For ...   Dec 21 2007, 20:51
|- - jmvalin   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Dec 22 2007, 04:51) W...   Dec 22 2007, 03:57
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Dec 22 2007, 03:57) In t...   Dec 23 2007, 12:17
|- - jmvalin   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Dec 23 2007, 20:17) N...   Dec 23 2007, 13:22
|- - jmvalin   Here's some information on the pitch predictor...   Dec 26 2007, 13:15
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Dec 26 2007, 13:15) Here...   Jan 2 2008, 18:01
- - radorn   Sorry for the misunderstanding and thank you both ...   Dec 21 2007, 11:27
- - Kef   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Dec 9 2007, 12:53) I...   Jan 19 2008, 13:34
|- - jmvalin   QUOTE (Kef @ Jan 19 2008, 21:34) Now, I k...   Feb 3 2008, 11:57
|- - johnsonlam   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Feb 3 2008, 18:57) Keep ...   Feb 21 2008, 06:18
|- - jmvalin   QUOTE (johnsonlam @ Feb 21 2008, 14:18) A...   Feb 22 2008, 03:16
- - Nicos   I absolutetly agree with what u stated above Kef. ...   Jan 22 2008, 12:23
- - Brent   A sense of "progress" I suppose. Every n...   Feb 22 2008, 23:38
|- - jmvalin   QUOTE (Brent @ Feb 23 2008, 07:38) A sens...   Feb 24 2008, 10:53
- - Saoshyant   Xiph also made an announcement of everything that ...   Mar 6 2008, 03:16
- - Bourne   -   Mar 6 2008, 04:09
- - Saoshyant   The recent aoTuV tunings have not yet been merged ...   Mar 7 2008, 04:08


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