IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

When Pigs Fly: The Death of Oink, the Birth of Dissent
boombaard
post Oct 29 2007, 21:30
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 338
Joined: 7-February 05
From: Local Cluster
Member No.: 19647



perhaps an interesting/entertaining read: (not by my hand, found it yesterday)
http://www.demonbaby.com/blog/2007/10/when...k-birth-of.html

QUOTE (article introduction)
For quite a long time I've been intending to post some sort of commentary on the music industry - piracy, distribution, morality, those types of things. I've thought about it many times, but never gone through with it, because the issue is such a broad, messy one - such a difficult thing to address fairly and compactly. I knew it would result in a rambly, unfocused commentary, and my exact opinion has teetered back and forth quite a bit over the years anyway. But on Monday, when I woke up to the news that Oink, the world famous torrent site and mecca for music-lovers everywhere, had been shut down by international police and various anti-piracy groups, I knew it was finally time to try and organize my thoughts on this huge, sticky, important issue.


edit2: thanks for editing the title, kind (and anonymous) moderator smile.gif

This post has been edited by boombaard: Oct 29 2007, 23:57
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Night Surfer
post Nov 1 2007, 15:53
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 10-June 06
Member No.: 31692



The numbers argument is funny. Of course one cannot own a particular number as it is not unique (comparatively). When the number reaches several hundred or thousand digits it becomes unique and, therefore, copyright able (property).

An obvious analogy would be letters (as in alphabet) vs literature (a novel is, after all, just a collection of letters).

All of this is merely the growing pains of the digital age. New problems require new definitions.

The thinly veiled "CD's cost too much money therefore my pirating is justified" argument is silly. Capitalism. Supply and Demand, baby.
Believing something is overpriced does not justify theft. You have a choice: buy it or don't. If enough people do not the supplier will be forced to lower prices or go out of business. Simple economics.

Having said all of that.....

I shamelessly download Gig's of music.
I just happen to be an honest non-delusional thief that does not spew forth lame rationalizations to justify it to myself / others.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
greynol
post Nov 1 2007, 17:30
Post #3





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10043
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



Not one single person in this entire thread is justifying piracy.

If you or plnelson think you can prove me wrong, feel free to try.

...but to address your point about supply and demand, when the price of something is too high, less people will be willing to buy it. Record companies should start here instead of pretending that every illegal copy accounts for a lost sale.

This post has been edited by greynol: Nov 1 2007, 17:42


--------------------
Your eyes cannot hear.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Pepzhez
post Nov 1 2007, 21:14
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 257
Joined: 18-May 03
Member No.: 6685



An easy solution to this dilemma could be devised tomorrow -- or yesterday, or three years ago, for that matter. Simply require a reasonable flat fee and then allow those who wish to upload/download to their hearts' content. Tracker logs will readily display the numbers of each and every file, thus allowing for a fair and equitable distribution of the money.

Had such a system existed over the past few years, had Torrent sites been allowed to be set up as registered legal entities functioning in the manner of stores (required to report their 'sales' and income), the distributed profits generated from, say, Oink, would have amounted to a significant financial benefit to all concerned.

So why hasn't this been done? It's an inescapable conclusion that the RIAA, BPI, etc. care less about alleged "lost potential sales" than they do over the potential loss of their monopoly distribution status.

Contrary to the absolutist copyright (read: corporatist) screes from the likes of plnelson, I can speak more directly and authoritatively on this particular manner. He wants 'expertise'? Then I will provide it for him. I had at least three of my own releases available at Oink; I did not upload them. One of them, my first record is currently considered to be the 'intellectual property' of a formerly independent label, now owned by a major. Said label never paid, has consistently asserted that they own all rights to this recording, regualrly fails to provide proper (read: any) accounting, refuses to turn over the master tape to which they have no legal document that proves their 'ownership', etc, etc. On top of that, said record has been deleted ever since the major label acquired the company. They have no plans to re-release it, yet they firmly assert their dodgy 'right' to this material. To add insult to injury, they will not even license the record -- a record they have no interest in releasing -- to me, the original artist. But their multi-national attorneys have been kind enough to send me a letter warning me not to attempt to 'distribute by phonographic, electronic or any other means' my own record. This letter is what I received simply because I demanded a full legal accounting of their vague claims to legal ownership.

Had I signed a bad deal, giving my copyrights away, that would be another matter. I did not do that. According to four different copyright attorneys I have consulted, the master tape and the rights to this material are mine. However, the only way for me to assert those rights is to challenge a team of multi-national attorneys and prevail in a court of law. As the major label and their legal team are well aware (and as you've no doubt already surmised), I am not in possession of the astronomical amount of money required to mount such a challenge. Meanwhile, I could conceivably be sued for uploading MY OWN RECORD, had I done that. Fortunately, some unknown person did upload it, and I am grateful, because that was the only way you can get the record, bar finding a used copy somewhere -- and I wouldn't make anything from the sale of a used copy either.

I am not seeking sympathy for what may appear to amount to a sob story. Not at all. On the other hand, if a copyright purist such as plnelson wishes to contribute to my legal defense, I'd be happy to accept. The rub, of course, is that his rhetoric is identical to that of the BPI and RIAA. He invokes the 'artist's rights and protection' as the sentimental clencher to his inflexible law-and-order binary arguments, when he should be (and perhaps even is) well aware that the strongarm tactics borne from the 'copyright' assertion rarely if ever serve the interests of 'the artist'.

QUOTE ("plnelson")
And then there's the moral reciprocity issue - if you steal some music you are enjoying the efforts of the musician, not to mention the sound engineer, producer, etc, not to mention all the time and effort they all put into to developing their professional skills, without compensating them for the enjoyment they have given you. Is it right to enjoy the fruits of someone's labors without compensating them? The musician gave you something - what have you given him for his efforts?


Please get off your moral high horse. For whom are you speaking? You speak as if you are a Thatcherite clasroom swot and not an artist. If financial motivation is your utmost concern, being an artist of any sort is not for you. First and foremost, the artist desires that his/her work will be appreciated. Financial compensation is welcome, but hardly a motivating factor. This is not a job, and one does not clock in and out. More to the point, I tell you something: if the major label currently in possession of my first record rereleased it tomorrow, neither I nor the other musicians nor the producer nor the sound engineers would receive a damn thing. But the major label would. Sod them. I'd rather you did not hand over your money to them.

Speaking as someone who HAS seen his own music available at Oink, I can say with certainty that I would MUCH rather see you enjoying 'the fruits of my labours' for free, rather than paying an incompetent and immoral corporation for the 'privilege' of doing so. As for my other records -- which, yes, I unambiguously own outright -- I would much rather someone hears them than not. Judging from my experience and that of other musicians I know, the worst thing was not seeing your record on Oink. Rather, it was seeing it there and noticing that no one downloaded it. Fortunately for me, several people did download my work, and -- one hopes -- it was enjoyed. Now, what do you, plnelson, propose happen to those people at Oink who enjoyed my work? Sue them? Incarcerate them? Please do tell.

This post has been edited by Pepzhez: Nov 1 2007, 21:22
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
uart
post Nov 7 2007, 09:56
Post #5





Group: Members
Posts: 810
Joined: 23-November 04
Member No.: 18295



QUOTE (Pepzhez @ Nov 1 2007, 12:14) *
Speaking as someone who HAS seen his own music available at Oink, I can say with certainty that I would MUCH rather see you enjoying 'the fruits of my labours' for free, rather than paying an incompetent and immoral corporation for the 'privilege' of doing so. As for my other records -- which, yes, I unambiguously own outright -- I would much rather someone hears them than not. Judging from my experience and that of other musicians I know, the worst thing was not seeing your record on Oink. Rather, it was seeing it there and noticing that no one downloaded it. Fortunately for me, several people did download my work, and -- one hopes -- it was enjoyed. Now, what do you, plnelson, propose happen to those people at Oink who enjoyed my work? Sue them? Incarcerate them? Please do tell.


Well just because you are happy to give away copies of your original content doesn't mean that everybody should have to give up all rights to IP as many people in this thread seem to be advocating.

For me this whole thing has got nothing to do with major label record companies, I couldn’t care less if they go out of business. For me it's about the simple matter of whether or not you believe that (at least in theory) an artist or inventor etc has the right to own their IP and thereby to control it's distribution as they see fit. In my opinion they do, and in my opinion all of those who say they don't believe it do so purely to justify their desire to leach.

BTW. Can you stick to the topic and stop straying off into personal attacks on those who hold a contrary opinion!

This post has been edited by uart: Nov 7 2007, 10:00
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- boombaard   When Pigs Fly: The Death of Oink   Oct 29 2007, 21:30
- - neomoe   very nice read! thank you for sharing this...   Oct 29 2007, 22:58
- - Fandango   "so this is why CDs cost $18..." H...   Oct 29 2007, 23:17
- - seanyseansean   If you disregard their 'illegal' status, b...   Oct 30 2007, 00:19
- - LANjackal   Interesting. I was wondering just how long it woul...   Oct 30 2007, 02:02
- - Canar   Mentioning an illegal site that no longer exists i...   Oct 30 2007, 03:23
- - plnelson   I certainly don't disagree that the music indu...   Oct 30 2007, 18:25
|- - skamp   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 30 2007, 18:25) No ...   Oct 31 2007, 14:26
- - Fandango   *rofl* Why is it always the stealing cars analogy ...   Oct 30 2007, 19:31
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Fandango @ Oct 30 2007, 14:31) *ro...   Oct 30 2007, 19:46
- - Canar   An MP3 is a very long number. Likewise, a track on...   Oct 30 2007, 20:30
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Canar @ Oct 30 2007, 15:30) An MP3...   Oct 30 2007, 21:31
- - neomoe   numbers are interpreted by a program, so they are ...   Oct 30 2007, 21:34
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (neomoe @ Oct 30 2007, 16:34) numbe...   Oct 30 2007, 21:51
|- - Light-Fire   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 30 2007, 15:51) ......   Oct 31 2007, 03:54
- - Canar   neomoe, at the basic level, words are numbers as w...   Oct 30 2007, 21:54
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Canar @ Oct 30 2007, 16:54) plnels...   Oct 30 2007, 23:22
- - boombaard   QUOTE An MP3 is a very long number. Likewise, a tr...   Oct 30 2007, 21:57
- - krabapple   from the rant: QUOTE because you can all but guar...   Oct 30 2007, 22:10
- - greynol   Didn't we already have this discussion a short...   Oct 30 2007, 23:26
- - Axon   The bigger question is how the overall flow of mon...   Oct 31 2007, 01:14
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Axon @ Oct 30 2007, 20:14) Would i...   Oct 31 2007, 16:09
|- - skamp   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 31 2007, 16:09) All...   Oct 31 2007, 17:30
||- - plnelson   QUOTE (skamp @ Oct 31 2007, 12:30) QUOTE ...   Oct 31 2007, 18:20
||- - greynol   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 31 2007, 10:20) And...   Oct 31 2007, 18:55
||- - skamp   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 31 2007, 18:20) And...   Nov 1 2007, 09:41
|- - Artemis3   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 31 2007, 11:09) All...   Oct 31 2007, 19:22
|- - sraffa   QUOTE (Artemis3 @ Oct 31 2007, 13:22) . ....   Oct 31 2007, 20:19
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Artemis3 @ Oct 31 2007, 14:22) Rig...   Nov 6 2007, 18:24
- - digital   . . You cats need to take a stiff shot of your fa...   Oct 31 2007, 02:13
- - Fuchal   How long do you think before the labels are out of...   Oct 31 2007, 04:06
- - LANjackal   @ plnelson: Aren't you the same guy who starte...   Oct 31 2007, 04:29
- - Canar   Let's take a look at the people who are provid...   Oct 31 2007, 04:35
- - Artemis3   My, my, this topic is also here Quoting myself at...   Oct 31 2007, 07:27
- - boombaard   QUOTE All the armchair philosophizing in your post...   Oct 31 2007, 16:59
- - Triza   Just my 2 pence: Labels will be smaller, but they ...   Oct 31 2007, 23:15
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (Triza @ Nov 1 2007, 00:15) Just my...   Nov 1 2007, 06:19
- - Cosmo   Who pays $15 - $18 per CD?   Nov 1 2007, 00:20
- - SebastianG   CDs in Germany usually cost 15-18 EUR (20-25 USD)....   Nov 1 2007, 01:13
|- - Light-Fire   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Oct 31 2007, 19:13) C...   Nov 1 2007, 01:47
- - david_dl   Here, a newly released CD by a local artist, or an...   Nov 1 2007, 03:54
- - randal1013   i just read on blabbermouth that trent reznor had ...   Nov 1 2007, 04:42
- - Night Surfer   The numbers argument is funny. Of course one canno...   Nov 1 2007, 15:53
|- - greynol   Not one single person in this entire thread is jus...   Nov 1 2007, 17:30
|- - Pepzhez   An easy solution to this dilemma could be devised ...   Nov 1 2007, 21:14
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (Pepzhez @ Nov 1 2007, 22:14) An ea...   Nov 2 2007, 09:39
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Pepzhez @ Nov 1 2007, 16:14) Had I...   Nov 6 2007, 18:40
||- - Pepzhez   QUOTE (plnelson @ Nov 6 2007, 09:40) If y...   Nov 7 2007, 05:58
|- - uart   QUOTE (Pepzhez @ Nov 1 2007, 12:14) Speak...   Nov 7 2007, 09:56
- - simonh   well said, pepzhez.   Nov 1 2007, 22:58
- - Artemis3   And yet, Pepzhez is not the only one... So plnels...   Nov 2 2007, 07:53
- - ArtMustHurt   usually artists dont earn much from cd sales unles...   Nov 2 2007, 13:19
- - Fandango   Personally I like this idea of an ideal state-of-t...   Nov 2 2007, 14:20
|- - skamp   QUOTE (Fandango @ Nov 2 2007, 14:20) Arti...   Nov 2 2007, 14:51
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (skamp @ Nov 2 2007, 14:51) So... p...   Nov 2 2007, 15:04
|- - skamp   QUOTE (Fandango @ Nov 2 2007, 15:04) Yes,...   Nov 2 2007, 16:35
|- - SnTholiday   QUOTE let people decide what they want to buy. Pe...   Nov 2 2007, 23:01
|- - Leto Atreides II   QUOTE (SnTholiday @ Nov 2 2007, 15:01) So...   Nov 4 2007, 06:45
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (SnTholiday @ Nov 3 2007, 00:01) Pe...   Nov 6 2007, 18:31
- - jaybeee   When Pigs Fly... I found this to be a very intere...   Nov 7 2007, 09:07
- - Tab   I find it amusing to no end that people rationaliz...   Nov 7 2007, 09:57
- - Buddylee   The Recording Monopoly (if you wish to talk about ...   Nov 11 2007, 13:26


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 25th October 2014 - 00:39