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When Pigs Fly: The Death of Oink, the Birth of Dissent
boombaard
post Oct 29 2007, 21:30
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perhaps an interesting/entertaining read: (not by my hand, found it yesterday)
http://www.demonbaby.com/blog/2007/10/when...k-birth-of.html

QUOTE (article introduction)
For quite a long time I've been intending to post some sort of commentary on the music industry - piracy, distribution, morality, those types of things. I've thought about it many times, but never gone through with it, because the issue is such a broad, messy one - such a difficult thing to address fairly and compactly. I knew it would result in a rambly, unfocused commentary, and my exact opinion has teetered back and forth quite a bit over the years anyway. But on Monday, when I woke up to the news that Oink, the world famous torrent site and mecca for music-lovers everywhere, had been shut down by international police and various anti-piracy groups, I knew it was finally time to try and organize my thoughts on this huge, sticky, important issue.


edit2: thanks for editing the title, kind (and anonymous) moderator smile.gif

This post has been edited by boombaard: Oct 29 2007, 23:57
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Axon
post Oct 31 2007, 01:14
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The bigger question is how the overall flow of money in the intellectual property trade influences what IP is developed. Remember, the whole point of copyright wasn't that IP rights were inalienable, but that allowing IP to be treated like physical property gives a much stronger economic incentive to develop it. The recent trends towards considering IP an inalienable right may be right or wrong, but even if it's not, the general question is the same.

Clearly, music as a whole will get along fine without big music labels, or any sort of DRM or IP enforcement. But nobody's proposed (or identified) a system where so much money can be focused into the industry. Without that much money, would we see as much expense being paid towards good recording studios, or sound mastering practices, or any other musical item requiring a large investment? Would it ever become profitable to publish recordings of new classical music, for instance? Would as many experimental acts be published if the risk involved in producing them would not be offset by large amounts of guaranteed income?

What I really fear is that music as a whole will become more amateur, and ultimately more conservative, as IP rights degrade. When the money stops flowing, only the people who don't care about money will continue to play - but that doesn't mean that the music will be any better or any more authentic; just that it will require less investment to produce, and that it will be harder to earn a living doing studio recordings.. Those people that do enjoy music that required great investments will only find it in the music of the past, when the industry could support it. Therefore, because music listeners would predominantly listen to the past, genres (notably rock) would stagnate.
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plnelson
post Oct 31 2007, 16:09
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QUOTE (Axon @ Oct 30 2007, 20:14) *
Would it ever become profitable to publish recordings of new classical music, for instance? Would as many experimental acts be published if the risk involved in producing them would not be offset by large amounts of guaranteed income?


My music collection is very diverse but about half of it is classical, and I personally know more classical musicians, including fulltime professionals, than any other genre, so I can speak to that. Classical will do OK.

First of all, there is not anything like the widespread music theft in classical as there is in rock and pop genres. Unlike rock and pop listeners, classical listeners do not start with a sense of entitlement to the music, so they are used to the idea that they have an obligation to support their music financially. Even the most popular and best-known orchestras and chamber ensembles routinely run donation and subscription campaigns and other fund-raisers. My wife and I are financial contributors to several orchestras and chamber ensembles - unlike rock bands, classical ensembles develop close relationships with their listening audience and are often set up as 501( c ) 3 's (US tax code for non-profits so donations can be made on a tax-exempt basis). So there's a whole different culture in the classical community - we know that the music exists only because we support it - IP thieves feel no obligation to support the music they enjoy - they expect to get it for free.

In addition to that, classical musicians are less expensive. Many of them have other jobs such as conservatory teaching or coaching, and in general they don't aspire to the expensive and glamorous lifestyles of big name rock-stars. The care and feeding of even the most prominent world-touring and world-class chamber quartet is a fraction of a major world-class 4 piece rock band.



QUOTE (skamp @ Oct 31 2007, 09:26) *
Please stop equating copyright infringement to stealing - it's just not the same. Period.


All the armchair philosophizing in your posts and those of Artemis3, etc, are just your personal opinions. But you can't cite any case law or other legal opinion by anyone with any professional expertise in copyright or intellectual property to support you. The bottom line is that virtually everyone who has devoted their professional lives to studying this disagrees with you. And case law is completely against you, not just in the US but in the UK and EU, too.

Offer us something other than a plain assertion.
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Artemis3
post Oct 31 2007, 19:22
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QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 31 2007, 11:09) *
All the armchair philosophizing in your posts and those of Artemis3, etc, are just your personal opinions. But you can't cite any case law or other legal opinion by anyone with any professional expertise in copyright or intellectual property to support you. The bottom line is that virtually everyone who has devoted their professional lives to studying this disagrees with you. And case law is completely against you, not just in the US but in the UK and EU, too.


Right and Wrong
The copy-right infringement.

QUOTE (http://blog.librarysupportstaff.org/)
Someone going into a bookstore and taking a book without paying for it is committing theft. Copyright infringement is not involved in the action of stealing the book. If a work is scanned and made available online without permission, it is copyright infringement, but not considered theft. The differences are significant, but seem to be confused by many. The chair of a major publisher should not confuse the two.


QUOTE (http://www.underwayinireland.com/copyright/)
After all, the music industry isn't making it easy for someone who buys a CD to use it how the customer pleases. For those with a conscience, it's merely copyright infringement, not stealing. And the offense doesn't even rank as a petty crime, no matter how hard the RIAA beats its drums.


QUOTE
Copyright infringement is a legal offense, subject to monetary damages and injunctions imposed by a court of law. It occurs when a person, knowingly or unknowingly, violates the exclusive right of the copyright holder to reproduce, display, perform, distribute, or make a derivative version of a certain work. 17 U.S.C. § 106. The holder of the legal copyright isn’t necessarily the author of the work and, moreover, the infringer cannot save him/herself from a lawsuit by correctly attributing the work.


Note that they are in whole separate sections:
TITLE 17—COPYRIGHTS
TITLE 18—CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

Also note TITLE 18 chapter 31 is not TITLE 17 chapter 5.
In short, from a legal stand point: COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT is not THEFT.

Laws, are made by people. Laws can be changed. Laws are not always right. Go back to the time when slavery was legal, and releasing them was not. As i said current US laws mostly benefit the corporations, because its them who pay US politicians to do so. In most countries that would be corruption, a crime. In USA, its institutionalized with the figure of the lobby system. Founders of that country, thought that it should be the rich and wealthy the ones influencing political decisions, since they are supposedly the educated, unlike the rest whom they considered "ignorant masses". This school of thought still prevails to this day, whenever they mention it or not. It is not the populist dream of Abraham Lincoln (of the people, by the people, for the people). The word Democracy means the people has the power, it is not certainly the case here. Only a few really have this power, and these few are controlled by a few rich. It is much closer to Aristocracy if something. Just because you have limited freedom of speech (no pics of US dead soldiers coming back, for example) and some meaningless rights to vote (bi partisan almost the same choices) does not make it a democracy. In fact the concept of democracy is heavily distorted there, and the media enforces this distortion. Otherwise ideas threating capitalism itself might surface, people might start caring; and you know what happens when masses think they can make choices and rule a country; according to that school of thought...

So these corporations who puppet the stronger country makes it bully others to establish laws the way they want it. Some oppose, but they never stop. Trading agreements, WTO, threats, direct intervention, etc. Yet, laws are not the same everywhere. In Spain, copying for non profit uses is allowed by law. Many are proposing just that elsewhere, or at least to restore the original Copyright spirit; put limits to it and restore the balance and rights for the people.


--------------------
She is waiting in the air
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plnelson
post Nov 6 2007, 18:24
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QUOTE (Artemis3 @ Oct 31 2007, 14:22) *
Right and Wrong
The copy-right infringement.


I have no idea why you linked to this 2002 National Review article. The article was about the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act and why, in the author's opinion, the Supreme Court should not uphold it. But that was in 2002 and on January 15 2003 the Supremes DID uphold it, and by a 7-2 margin!

The bottom line is that music pirates are breaking the law and appropriating the work of others that they have no right (legally or morally) to.

QUOTE (Cosmo @ Oct 31 2007, 19:20) *
Who pays $15 - $18 per CD? blink.gif


What is this question a reference to? (it's a basic aspect of netiquette, not to mention common sense, to quote the thing you're referring to)

This post has been edited by plnelson: Nov 6 2007, 18:21
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Posts in this topic
- boombaard   When Pigs Fly: The Death of Oink   Oct 29 2007, 21:30
- - neomoe   very nice read! thank you for sharing this...   Oct 29 2007, 22:58
- - Fandango   "so this is why CDs cost $18..." H...   Oct 29 2007, 23:17
- - seanyseansean   If you disregard their 'illegal' status, b...   Oct 30 2007, 00:19
- - LANjackal   Interesting. I was wondering just how long it woul...   Oct 30 2007, 02:02
- - Canar   Mentioning an illegal site that no longer exists i...   Oct 30 2007, 03:23
- - plnelson   I certainly don't disagree that the music indu...   Oct 30 2007, 18:25
|- - skamp   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 30 2007, 18:25) No ...   Oct 31 2007, 14:26
- - Fandango   *rofl* Why is it always the stealing cars analogy ...   Oct 30 2007, 19:31
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Fandango @ Oct 30 2007, 14:31) *ro...   Oct 30 2007, 19:46
- - Canar   An MP3 is a very long number. Likewise, a track on...   Oct 30 2007, 20:30
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Canar @ Oct 30 2007, 15:30) An MP3...   Oct 30 2007, 21:31
- - neomoe   numbers are interpreted by a program, so they are ...   Oct 30 2007, 21:34
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (neomoe @ Oct 30 2007, 16:34) numbe...   Oct 30 2007, 21:51
|- - Light-Fire   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 30 2007, 15:51) ......   Oct 31 2007, 03:54
- - Canar   neomoe, at the basic level, words are numbers as w...   Oct 30 2007, 21:54
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Canar @ Oct 30 2007, 16:54) plnels...   Oct 30 2007, 23:22
- - boombaard   QUOTE An MP3 is a very long number. Likewise, a tr...   Oct 30 2007, 21:57
- - krabapple   from the rant: QUOTE because you can all but guar...   Oct 30 2007, 22:10
- - greynol   Didn't we already have this discussion a short...   Oct 30 2007, 23:26
- - Axon   The bigger question is how the overall flow of mon...   Oct 31 2007, 01:14
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Axon @ Oct 30 2007, 20:14) Would i...   Oct 31 2007, 16:09
|- - skamp   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 31 2007, 16:09) All...   Oct 31 2007, 17:30
||- - plnelson   QUOTE (skamp @ Oct 31 2007, 12:30) QUOTE ...   Oct 31 2007, 18:20
||- - greynol   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 31 2007, 10:20) And...   Oct 31 2007, 18:55
||- - skamp   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 31 2007, 18:20) And...   Nov 1 2007, 09:41
|- - Artemis3   QUOTE (plnelson @ Oct 31 2007, 11:09) All...   Oct 31 2007, 19:22
|- - sraffa   QUOTE (Artemis3 @ Oct 31 2007, 13:22) . ....   Oct 31 2007, 20:19
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Artemis3 @ Oct 31 2007, 14:22) Rig...   Nov 6 2007, 18:24
- - digital   . . You cats need to take a stiff shot of your fa...   Oct 31 2007, 02:13
- - Fuchal   How long do you think before the labels are out of...   Oct 31 2007, 04:06
- - LANjackal   @ plnelson: Aren't you the same guy who starte...   Oct 31 2007, 04:29
- - Canar   Let's take a look at the people who are provid...   Oct 31 2007, 04:35
- - Artemis3   My, my, this topic is also here Quoting myself at...   Oct 31 2007, 07:27
- - boombaard   QUOTE All the armchair philosophizing in your post...   Oct 31 2007, 16:59
- - Triza   Just my 2 pence: Labels will be smaller, but they ...   Oct 31 2007, 23:15
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (Triza @ Nov 1 2007, 00:15) Just my...   Nov 1 2007, 06:19
- - Cosmo   Who pays $15 - $18 per CD?   Nov 1 2007, 00:20
- - SebastianG   CDs in Germany usually cost 15-18 EUR (20-25 USD)....   Nov 1 2007, 01:13
|- - Light-Fire   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Oct 31 2007, 19:13) C...   Nov 1 2007, 01:47
- - david_dl   Here, a newly released CD by a local artist, or an...   Nov 1 2007, 03:54
- - randal1013   i just read on blabbermouth that trent reznor had ...   Nov 1 2007, 04:42
- - Night Surfer   The numbers argument is funny. Of course one canno...   Nov 1 2007, 15:53
|- - greynol   Not one single person in this entire thread is jus...   Nov 1 2007, 17:30
|- - Pepzhez   An easy solution to this dilemma could be devised ...   Nov 1 2007, 21:14
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (Pepzhez @ Nov 1 2007, 22:14) An ea...   Nov 2 2007, 09:39
|- - plnelson   QUOTE (Pepzhez @ Nov 1 2007, 16:14) Had I...   Nov 6 2007, 18:40
||- - Pepzhez   QUOTE (plnelson @ Nov 6 2007, 09:40) If y...   Nov 7 2007, 05:58
|- - uart   QUOTE (Pepzhez @ Nov 1 2007, 12:14) Speak...   Nov 7 2007, 09:56
- - simonh   well said, pepzhez.   Nov 1 2007, 22:58
- - Artemis3   And yet, Pepzhez is not the only one... So plnels...   Nov 2 2007, 07:53
- - ArtMustHurt   usually artists dont earn much from cd sales unles...   Nov 2 2007, 13:19
- - Fandango   Personally I like this idea of an ideal state-of-t...   Nov 2 2007, 14:20
|- - skamp   QUOTE (Fandango @ Nov 2 2007, 14:20) Arti...   Nov 2 2007, 14:51
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (skamp @ Nov 2 2007, 14:51) So... p...   Nov 2 2007, 15:04
|- - skamp   QUOTE (Fandango @ Nov 2 2007, 15:04) Yes,...   Nov 2 2007, 16:35
|- - SnTholiday   QUOTE let people decide what they want to buy. Pe...   Nov 2 2007, 23:01
|- - Leto Atreides II   QUOTE (SnTholiday @ Nov 2 2007, 15:01) So...   Nov 4 2007, 06:45
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (SnTholiday @ Nov 3 2007, 00:01) Pe...   Nov 6 2007, 18:31
- - jaybeee   When Pigs Fly... I found this to be a very intere...   Nov 7 2007, 09:07
- - Tab   I find it amusing to no end that people rationaliz...   Nov 7 2007, 09:57
- - Buddylee   The Recording Monopoly (if you wish to talk about ...   Nov 11 2007, 13:26


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